Why can't ghosts exist?

[birch]

There are some feelings from the gut, as there are even said to be some neurons there from the very early days of being.

It is also that the anxiety and depression of mourning or from anything else can be physically felt, mostly in the torso, but these as well as most sensations have reported to the brain and back to the body at large, as qualia.

I'm trying to say that, yes, a toe can have injury or be a concentrated place of thought, but it is the brain that makes the pain qualia or of the place that is focused on.

One can even take a pencil and rub it along a fabric, even feeling the sensation way out there at the tip of the pencil, where no sense organs are. Same when flying a hang glider that the wings seem to be an extension of the arms.

yes, actually i'm already aware of all that. i was just proposing that the continuous sense of self which is often for many people within the heart area can be likened to a living entity though not physical. our physical bodies are really not impenetrable either, it just appears to be.

it was just a concept that was a good hypothesis in my opinion. i don't care anymore..

 

[SciWriter]

The conscious self seems to only exist between experiences but the brain self of what we have become is always there between uses.

OK, back to ghosts. It seems that they couldn't even be made of dark matter:

Shades of the Otherworld?

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2703248&postcount=1451

 

[birch]

The conscious self seems to only exist between experiences

wtf?? perhaps for you.

 

[SciWriter]

wtf?? perhaps for you.

Well, there are hardly any of those times, for the brain ever comes up with things, but I do doze off or even half doze off sometimes, especially when reading the religion forums. And then there may be micro-sleeps, too.

 

[Ophiolite]

i never said you don't think with the mind

We were not discussing thinking with your mind, but where the sense of self was located. You stated very clearly it was located in the heart. I have now explained to you that such is definitely not the case for me. It clearly not the case for several other posters in this thread.

.....but i suspect that people who say or feel they are in their head all the time has more to do with perhaps not noticing or paying much attention to their sense of self in the heart area.

Why would we ignore it there, yet never ignore the sense of self located in the head? Your proposal is quite silly.

for instance, i've never heard of someone "grieving" in their head. they grieve in their heart and feel it there.

That is a metaphorical expression. I feel the grief in my head, because that is 'where' I am. Please stop projecting your own experiences onto humanity at large. It is foolish, unseemly, rude and wholly non-productive.

 

[birch]

I feel the grief in my head, because that is 'where' I am. Please stop projecting your own experiences onto humanity at large. It is foolish, unseemly, rude and wholly non-productive.

well, i wasn't meaning to be rude about it. it's just that there is so much expressions out there where people describe feeling in their heart. i read it or hear it all the time.

if you feel mainly in your head, then you are kind of unique perhaps too. you would know better than anyone.

 

[James R]

Magical Realist:

The fatal flaw in your theory ofcourse being that if it is not faked as you concede then the girls would still be aware of the presence of third figure, such as a boyfriend without a shirt?, being accidently smeared while taking the picture. Try again?

I have no information on what the girls were or were not aware of. Do you? If so, why didn't you provide that information before? Where can I find it?

Oh it's in "Pseudoscience" now? lol! I guess it was important for the moderators to label this thread "properly" so all the clear-thinking science geeks won't get all confused and take it as a question worthy in it's own right. Gots to protect those sheep afterall. So, with that sort of biased delegitimizing of viewpoints by Big Brother, that means I'm outta here.

Getting too difficult for you, so you're bugging out? Ok, then. A bit of a pity for a scientific person like yourself that you're unwilling to face challenges to your beliefs or even simple questions.

I notice you didn't even bother looking at the photo of the girl in the fire that I posted. Why not?

Regarding the thread being in Pseudoscience, please be aware that it is actually in BOTH Free Thoughts and Pseudoscience. There is a permanent link to it in the Free Thoughts forum. If you don't believe me, take a look at the list for yourself.

The subtitle of the Pseudoscience forum is "ufos, paranormal, unexplained phenomena". I think that ghosts pretty much fit that description, don't they?

 

[Ophiolite]

well, i wasn't meaning to be rude about it.

I was not offended by it, but frustrated. Others may, or may not have been offended, but they would certainly have thought you a prat for insisting upon your view.

it's just that there is so much expressions out there where people describe feeling in their heart. i read it or hear it all the time.

As I said in my last post, this is simply metaphor, since the heart at one time was seen as the 'seat of the soul'. This does not necessarily mean that people generally felt this was where there 'self' was located.

if you feel mainly in your head, then you are kind of unique perhaps too. you would know better than anyone.

Dywydyrr has indicated that he senses his self in the head. Jamesr has implied as much. Clearly my sense of self is not unique.. That is evident from this thread alone. You seem incapable of having noticed these points within a handful of posts you must surely have read.

Either you are being deliberately obtuse, or you are not too bright. Which is it? (And yes, I am being rude in the hope of shocking you out of your complacent, willful ignorance.)

 

[Magical Realist]

Magical Realist:



I have no information on what the girls were or were not aware of. Do you? If so, why didn't you provide that information before? Where can I find it?



Getting too difficult for you, so you're bugging out? Ok, then. A bit of a pity for a scientific person like yourself that you're unwilling to face challenges to your beliefs or even simple questions.

I notice you didn't even bother looking at the photo of the girl in the fire that I posted. Why not?

Regarding the thread being in Pseudoscience, please be aware that it is actually in BOTH Free Thoughts and Pseudoscience. There is a permanent link to it in the Free Thoughts forum. If you don't believe me, take a look at the list for yourself.

The subtitle of the Pseudoscience forum is "ufos, paranormal, unexplained phenomena". I think that ghosts pretty much fit that description, don't they?

Mention was made already about that little girl showing up in an earlier-taken postcard photo. I'm not sure that's a solid debunk of the fire pic since the girl may simply have been alive when the postcard photo was taken and then later died.

Ok..so I can tell you've been waiting on pins and needles to give us all some devastating analysis of the girl's image in the fire pic. So go ahead..lay it on us professor..

 

[nicholas1M7]

Dear everyone,

I just wanted you to know that Magical Realist appears and sounds just like a sub-human piece of shit I once unfortunately knew by the name of Russel E. Rierson aka analog57 - a person who uses "science" and "theory" to reinforce the belief in the supernatural and cause greater mass delusion than already exists over the internet. Once again I will state a simple and obvious fact, in our infinite physical universe how can immaterial beings exist? How can we interact with a ghost or a spirit? Obviously any ghost or spirit would be a figment of the imagination. According to a real scientist by the name of Ledoux who I came across on the actual freedom website "we do not run because we are afraid, we are afraid because we run." This shows how we simply generate our own fears for ourselves as the only thing to fear is fear itself.

 

[nicholas1M7]

Mention was made already about that little girl showing up in an earlier-taken postcard photo. I'm not sure that's a solid debunk of the fire pic since the girl may simply have been alive when the postcard photo was taken and then later died.

Ok..so I can tell you've been waiting on pins and needles to give us all some devastating analysis of the girl's image in the fire pic. So go ahead..lay it on us professor..

Dear Magical Realist,

Nobody on this website gives a fuck about you and your delusions, they are simply trying to discover for themselves why such a "human" would ask such a question and then try to substantiate it and therefore waste their lives. You're alone.

 

[birch]

I was not offended by it, but frustrated. Others may, or may not have been offended, but they would certainly have thought you a prat for insisting upon your view.
As I said in my last post, this is simply metaphor, since the heart at one time was seen as the 'seat of the soul'. This does not necessarily mean that people generally felt this was where there 'self' was located.

Dywydyrr has indicated that he senses his self in the head. Jamesr has implied as much. Clearly my sense of self is not unique.. That is evident from this thread alone. You seem incapable of having noticed these points within a handful of posts you must surely have read.

Either you are being deliberately obtuse, or you are not too bright. Which is it? (And yes, I am being rude in the hope of shocking you out of your complacent, willful ignorance.)

this is not willful ignorance and i am certainly not being obtuse and to say that i am not too bright because i realize that this is not the usual is pretty rich. i did concede that evidently there are people who feel in their head since you and james made it clear that it was just not ignoring the senses elsewhere. i think you are the one being very unrealistic here. a handful of people do not make a majority. what is even interesting is that this seems rather unknown to some. clearly people who 'feel' or sense emotions in their head is unique.

there are more people who do feel in their heart than in their head than the other way around. that would make those like you more rare in comparison.

it is evident in literature, poems, songs, speech etc. even most people i've known has expressed that they feel in the heart/chest area or they experience most of their emotions or sense of self there. this does not mean the mind is totally excluded in their sense of self or identity but it's like an input/output.

even yesterday, a person commented that they 'felt their heart was ripped out' etc. it is NOT just metaphor to people, that is what many people experience and that is why these expressions exist.

 

[Dywyddyr]

i think you are the one being very unrealistic here. a handful of people do not make a majority.

On the contrary. When you say "handful" you are correct. On the other side of the argument we have... you. And you only. That does make the handful a majority.
Sorry, but that's how numbers work. Any number larger than one is, strangely, larger than one. And therefore constitutes a majority.

there are more people who do feel in their heart than in their head than the other way around.

According to you. And not yet substantiated.

it is evident in literature, poems, songs, speech etc.

Ah. My apologies. I didn't realise you were unaware of the term "metaphor". The terminology in use is a hangover from the days when it was widely believed that the heart really was the seat of thought and emotion.

even yesterday, a person commented that they 'felt their heart was ripped out' etc. it is NOT just metaphor to people, that is what many people experience and that is why these expressions exist.

Please substantiate this claim.

 

[birch]

On the contrary. When you say "handful" you are correct. On the other side of the argument we have... you. And you only. That does make the handful a majority.
Sorry, but that's how numbers work. Any number larger than one is, strangely, larger than one. And therefore constitutes a majority.


According to you. And not yet substantiated..


Please substantiate this claim.

now this is an example of being obtuse. you must be very sheltered.

if you are not aware that more people feel emotions and or sense of self in their heart/chest area than in their 'HEAD', then i can't help you. there is a difference between THINKING and FEELING/SENSATION.

Ah. My apologies. I didn't realise you were unaware of the term "metaphor". The terminology in use is a hangover from the days when it was widely believed that the heart really was the seat of thought and emotion.

an neither are you or others seeming to understand that people have a sense of self and experience emotions in the heart/chest area which is why these expressions and terminology persist. i'm explaining that people use these terms to 'describe' their experience since there are no concrete terms to do so.

this point is very easy to understand.

 

[Dywyddyr]

now this is an example of being obtuse. you must be very sheltered.

And again all you do is repeat an unsubstantiated claim.

if you are not aware that more people feel emotions and or sense of self in their heart/chest area than in their 'HEAD', then i can't help you.

How do you know this?
So far it appears to be something you have made up.

there is a difference between THINKING and FEELING/SENSATION.

And your point would be...? What, exactly?

 

[birch]

How do you know this?
So far it appears to be something you have made up.

that is amazingly bizarre to believe that which you probably do.

i did not "make" it up, it is what is expressed by many people in the world and it is not just a metaphor they are expressing with no reason. they are using the metaphors to express their experience.

this discussion is getting to be surreal.

i will chalk this up to the tendency for there being more people that are technical minded on a science forum.

And again all you do is repeat an unsubstantiated claim.

lol. what needs to be substantiated is your brain and your lack of perception.

it's amazing that someone can walk around in life and not notice the myriad ways people express their emotions or identify their sense of self from the chest/heart area. some people even point to it or clutch it. they are not doing this just as an act to appeal to a damn metaphor, it's the other way around!

 

[Ophiolite]

this is not willful ignorance and i am certainly not being obtuse and to say that i am not too bright because i realize that this is not the usual is pretty rich. .

And, it would seem, pretty accurate.

i did concede that evidently there are people who feel in their head since you and james made it clear that it was just not ignoring the senses elsewhere. i think you are the one being very unrealistic here. a handful of people do not make a majority. what is even interesting is that this seems rather unknown to some. clearly people who 'feel' or sense emotions in their head is unique..

1. The only person so far to whom this experience is unknown is yourself. Anyone else who has expressed an opinion on the matters states that they feel 'they' reside in their head.
2. If more than one person has this view how the **** can you say it is unique? Is English your third language?

there are more people who do feel in their heart than in their head than the other way around. that would make those like you more rare in comparison..

Demonstrate this. I do not deny it as a possibility, since till a day or so ago I have never considered encountered anyone who thought as you do. You cannot simply make unfounded assertions. All I assert is that three of us in this forum, at least, 'feel' we reside in our heads. I am not claiming this is necessarily the majority position on the planet. You claim that for your position, so it is incum bent on you to demonstrate it.

even yesterday, a person commented that they 'felt their heart was ripped out' etc. it is NOT just metaphor to people, that is what many people experience and that is why these expressions exist.

Demonstrate it is not a metaphor to them.

 

[Dywyddyr]

that is amazingly bizarre to believe that which you probably do.

On the contrary: your claim appears to be the bizarre one.

i did not "make" it up, it is what is expressed by many people in the world and it is not just a metaphor they are expressing with no reason.

Er

they are using the metaphors to express their experience.

It's not a metaphor but it is. How does that work?

this discussion is getting to be surreal.

Quite.

i will chalk this up to the tendency for there being more people that are technical minded on a science forum.

And I'll chalk it up to you not having any substantiation whatsoever for your claim. In other words: nothing at all.

 

[birch]

And, it would seem, pretty accurate.


1. The only person so far to whom this experience is unknown is yourself. Anyone else who has expressed an opinion on the matters states that they feel 'they' reside in their head.
2. If more than one person has this view how the **** can you say it is unique? Is English your third language?

Demonstrate this. I do not deny it as a possibility, since till a day or so ago I have never considered encountered anyone who thought as you do. You cannot simply make unfounded assertions. All I assert is that three of us in this forum, at least, 'feel' we reside in our heads. I am not claiming this is necessarily the majority position on the planet. You claim that for your position, so it is incum bent on you to demonstrate it.

Demonstrate it is not a metaphor to them.

this is not a subject that is concrete so expecting me to substantiate it is obtuse.

you cannot substantiate that you 'feel' in your head anymore than a person says they 'feel' in their chest area. you also cannot demonstrate that your claim that you feel in your head is not a metaphor either.

however, i can go by the expressions and information passed onto me by people in society which show that most seem to feel in their chest/heart area. btw, i am also "amazed" that you seem to think i am the only one you've encountered who thinks this way. i find that extremely odd to not know that so many people feel in their hearts or they sense their self there besides their mind.

when i stated it was 'unique', it did not mean one sole person but that it does not seem to be as common as the other.

 

[Dywyddyr]

this is not a subject that is concrete so expecting me to substantiate it is obtuse.

Again, you're wrong.
You have made specific claims:

your sense of 'self' is usually experienced in the heart area

Post 235

there are even times that one can sense or viscerally feel a three-dimensional being is inside your heart chakra with all it's particular properties/traits. you can liken it to a person without a body.

Post 244

this is why it is felt where it is, the heart area.

Post 247
etc.

you cannot substantiate that you 'feel' in your head anymore than a person says they 'feel' in their chest area.

So now you're contending that these specific claims are not substantiable? That you were just speculating?

you also cannot demonstrate that your claim that you feel in your head is not a metaphor either.

Huh?

however, i can go by the expressions and information passed onto me by people in society which show that most seem to feel in their chest/heart area.

Already addressed.

btw, i am also "amazed" that you seem to think i am the only one you've encountered who thinks this way. i find that rather odd.

So now you're also claiming to know how people we have met and you haven't feel? Amazing indeed.

when i stated it was 'unique', it did not mean one sole person but that it does not seem to be as common as the other.

So you didn't mean unique. Okay.