Why Be Religous!?!?!?!?!?

[VAKEMP]

Jenyar,

I submit to God, who can save me from more than death.

Wow. So, you won't die? Hmmm, that's interesting.

While you live by your own laws ("that you cannot sin because you don't know God") you will die under that law - death

So, only sinners and atheists die? I would like to find some examples of this. Could you please provide a list of people who have not died because of their belief in God? I can't seem to find this information anywhere. It must be a very elite, secretive group of people.

 

[inspector]

"I have a question, how can you base your Truth on a "Holy Book" that has contradictions in it?"
--------------------------


Perhaps, all of these things that you call 'contradictions' are not contradictory at all. Perhaps, you simply have not yet been given valid explanations (and there are valid explanations) for these apparent contradictions. If you want some valid answers, contact me via PM. Or, why don't you ask xev? 'She' seems to have all of the answers, and delivers them with such eloquent vernacular.

><>

 

[LIGHTBEING]

Perhaps, all of these things that you call 'contradictions' are not contradictory at all.

And perhaps they are.....

Perhaps, you simply have not yet been given valid explanations

Perhaps, you haven't.....

If you want some valid answers, contact me via PM.

no thanks.

 

[OldSchoolThinker]

I dont share a belief in a worldwide flood either. I believe
that there was some localized flood in that area long ago.
I see Genesis as something to be interpreted symbolically not lyrical.

 

[OldSchoolThinker]

The Flood myth is based on from an earlier culture.

 

[Xev]

Jenyar:

It is not up to you or a child to be saved. It is up to God. But God demands justice, like the justice you so self-righteously condemn from the OT.

Murdering little kids is justice?

Dear heavens.

Because you have heard the good news, you cannot escape the choice. You can't send babies to hell, Xev.

Nor would I want to. Your God, on the other hand, allegedly does. Must I keep going over this?

"By your quote I could simply write off Christianity due to the contradiction that exists inside the Bible."

This is dishonest, Jenyar. I can't blame you for disliking me, but I don't think attributing to me something another poster says is fair.

LIGHTBEING
441 posts

quote:The problem is that they cannot all be true since truth does not contradict itself.
It is also possible that not a single one of them are true. By your quote I could simply write off Christianity due to the contradiction that exists inside the Bible.

And every religion must be held to the same standard. Knowing this, you should be open-minded enough to realize that your religion could not be TRUE.

report | quote | edit | 12-04-02 at 01:15 PM

My bold.

As you can see, Lightbeing said that, not me.

"By your quote I could simply write you off by contradictions in your posts." It doesn't work that way. If you say you won't ever have any children, by what authority except your own can it hold true? If you contradict yourself in the future, does that mean you don't have authority over yourself or your actions? You can justify yourself (be right) either in your authority or in your actions.

A straw man based on something I did not even say deserves no further response.

God is just in both His authority and actions. While you live by your own laws ("that you cannot sin because you don't know God") you will die under that law - death.

I'll die whether I submit to God, my master's whip, or nothing at all.

So will you. Unless I'm talking to a vampire, which would be so fucking cool!

 

[Jenyar]

I wasn't talking about physical death. Of course my body will return to the dust it was made of. There are instances in the Bible where people have been taken up directly to heaven, but that is not important, or the point. We should not fear people who can only deliver death, but God who delivers beyond death.

Xev. Christians do not believe babies go to hell because they haven't heard about Jesus, or had a chance to repent from sins they have inherited and not committed themselves.

We believe in God's mercy. You believe in God's hatred and injustice. As I said before: you project your own misconception of God onto yourself and onto people. What would justice be, according to you?

And when ever did it sound like I didn't like you, Xev? Didn't I remember your birthday on the 10th of November, when you turned 17? Have I ever condemned you or anybody else to hell out of my own ignorance?

I'm sorry I misquoted you. Serves me right for writing more than I read.

I have one more thing to add: If the truth is greater than that which describes it, apparent contradictions can lead to the same conclusion. You can never have the complete truth, there will always be parts you cannot see or comprehend until you learn more. Maia describes religion as "unyielding and selfassured". It is people who act that way, whether justified or not. All through the Bible God has shown both flexibility and firmness. Like a Father who knows what He is has to do, while showing patience and mercy to his children. It is because God's purpose and intent has remained the same while the people and culture of the time vary that we get different perspectives, accounts and testimonies. But they all indicate the same God.

Is there any contradictory dogma in the Bible that is contra-gospel? That will be a true contradiction.

Prov. 8:12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

 

[Xev]

Jenyar:

Xev. Christians do not believe babies go to hell because they haven't heard about Jesus, or had a chance to repent from sins they have inherited and not committed themselves.

But what happens to them, then? They haven't "accepted Jesus". I thought that anyone who hasn't goes to hell?

We believe in God's mercy. You believe in God's hatred and injustice. As I said before: you project your own misconception of God onto yourself and onto people. What would justice be, according to you?

Justice is perfectly applied revenge. Punishing the guilty as they

I'm sorry I misquoted you. Serves me right for writing more than I read.

NP.

 

[Jenyar]

"Justice is perfectly applied revenge."

I like that. God says revenge is His. He also said it is not for us to take revenge. But revenge is not the intention of justice - it is not blind retaliation. It is measured to have fairness. We cannot judge who goes to hell or to heaven - that decision is left up to God. But because we do not know, we have the responsibility to let people know that Jesus has died for us. Jesus also died for children, so that they do not have to die for the sins of their parents.

Life comes from God. It is an act of love and mercy from God. He gives life and has the authority to take it away. But he wants us to live. Just growing up is a sign of His mercy. Jesus would probably have said: if children who die can experience God's mercy, how much more blessed are those who have had the chance to live and experience it.

 

[Xev]

Jenyar:

"Justice is perfectly applied revenge."

I like that. God says revenge is His. He also said it is not for us to take revenge. But revenge is not the intention of justice - it is not blind retaliation. It is measured to have fairness. We cannot judge who goes to hell or to heaven - that decision is left up to God. But because we do not know, we have the responsibility to let people know that Jesus has died for us. Jesus also died for children, so that they do not have to die for the sins of their parents.

But Jesus didn't die for me, thus I don't have any responsibility to let anyone know anything...unless I hold information that their lives depend on....right...

So what you're saying is that children are free of origional sin?

Makes sense enough.

Life comes from God. It is an act of love and mercy from God. He gives life and has the authority to take it away. But he wants us to live. Just growing up is a sign of His mercy.

Disagree. It'd be much nicer to have died while a child.

 

[Jenyar]

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (Adam), how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

We are all sinners. The Bible explains how and why, but you don't even need the Bible to figure out that you don't always do the right thing, not even when you seriously want to. You know your country has laws which you don't always obey. The most amazing thing that Christ teaches is that with the realisation that you are guilty, a sinner, comes the realisation that Jesus took the punishment in your place.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It is not belief in God that saves you, therefore even doubt is no excuse. It is accepting that Jesus died and arose again. Our condemnation does not come from God, but from the rejection of the law by which we are saved (Rom.8). Think about it hypothetically: Legally, if a law is passed and you do not obey it, it is by the law that you are guilty and not by the authority that passed it.

Romans 8
33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Jesus came to fulfill the laws passed by God, under which we are all guilty. By admitting guilt of sin (repentance), you voluntarily submit to the law under which sin is defined - God's law. And Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to be our councillor. If you deny the authority of the law, you also deny the authority by which you are justified.

Rom.8:22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

My point is: what is more powerful: justice, or mercy? The gospel is one of mercy - by repentance and forgiveness. You don't have to be a Christian to accept that.

 

[Xev]

Jenyar:

How can I be condemned under a law I never benefitted from the protection of nor accepted?

Seems a bit unfair to me.

My point is: what is more powerful: justice, or mercy?

Mercy is degrading for the person who recieves it and unfair to the victim of the one who is "spared".

I much prefer justice.

 

[Jenyar]

Xev,

It seems I misquoted

James 2:12___So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13___For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

You said yourself that you are completely free. You are benefitting from that freedom, right? Therefore you are being judged under the law that makes you free. You just don't realise the extent of your freedom. Freedom has a price - the price paid by Jesus.

Romans 8
2___For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Of course, all concepts of freedom fall flat if you don't believe in sin or death, because then there is no 'outside' to the law, and no 'after' to death.

 

[Xev]

Jenyar:

You said yourself that you are completely free. You are benefitting from that freedom, right? Therefore you are being judged under the law that makes you free. You just don't realise the extent of your freedom. Freedom has a price - the price paid by Jesus.

No, my Will is free. My heart is not. But that's beside the point.

I was not given freedom. I was born with it and I maintain it as best I can. Thus, I have not recieved my freedom at all. I have taken it.

I do not benefit from the law. It has done nothing for me and I never consented to be ruled by it. Thus, it does not bind me.

Of course, all concepts of freedom fall flat if you don't believe in sin or death, because then there is no 'outside' to the law, and no 'after' to death.

The law is a human invention that can be broken and changed at will. Thus, there is an 'outside' to the law.

Death, of course one must believe in death.

 

[Jenyar]

Can you see your own death? Yet you believe in it. Humans can sentence other people to death, why not themselves? Could the people in the World Trade Centre escape the judgment of those who sentenced them to death? The law I'm talking about is the one which frees us from death. You argue that you were born free, that is the fallacy: God gave you life. Just as He gave your parents life, and so on and so on. You inherited life, you didn't claim it or earn it. You don't know where it came from, how can you be so sure where it is going?

What if you inherited it from God and not from a single-cell organism that appeared out of nowhere? Death is also inherited, but from denying the giver of life - what the Bible calls 'sin'. By making yourself the author of your life, you accept authorship of your death. That's some responsibility. That is what Jesus makes us free from - from being responsible for our death. Jesus is responsible for your life.

I assume your heart belongs to someone else. You have given it to someone and you trust them with it. You might even expect to be hurt, because you know people are fallible, but you can love them nontheless. If you can give that kind of love, you can also receive it. Can you demand that they return that love? It has to be given freely. Your will is free - so is theirs. Love binds your will to their freedom, don't you see? Why not bind your life to One who can also free it?

You say mercy is degrading. What is mercy other than something given that cannot be earned, like freedom, or forgiveness? Or love? Do you deserve the kind of love you expect? Do they deserve the love you give them? Why would the Bible describe such a love in 1 Cor. 13 if it didn't mean we are allowed to receive it? That is the way God loves you. He knows He can't expect you to love him back, because then it wouldn't be love anymore.

But He does let us know that love is what He expects:
Luke 10
26What is written in the Law? he replied. How do you read it?
27He answered: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'
28You have answered correctly, Jesus replied. Do this and you will live.