True.
But that raises the sticky issue of who's source of truth is better?
(Which of course no party will concede)
But that raises the sticky issue of who's source of truth is better?
(Which of course no party will concede)
Why Athiesim is a self defeating belief
- Thread starter answers
- Start date
- Status
Many of the myths of religions are demonstrably wrong. I can't comment on how these myths might help people, but when it makes people do things like trying to teach them as scientific fact, I must object.
(from: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7233436)
He he. Damn, this here science and biology classes is not helping my education none!
*************
M*W: How is atheism "self-defeating?" There's nothing to defeat except the lies of christianity and other religions that are self-defeating to humankind.
M*W: How is atheism "self-defeating?" There's nothing to defeat except the lies of christianity and other religions that are self-defeating to humankind.
I am forced to re-evaluate my most cherished beliefs after seeing this new evidence. It appears our theory of evolution has it backwards; monkeys are in fact smarter than the author of the post in your link. Perhaps we should conjure up a new subspecies of homo sapien to fit this data, so we can continue living our immoral lifestyles in defiance of those pesky Christians.
Monkey Mak33
Registered Member
Ughh here this pretty much explains what im trying to say
quote from site: "By Marilyn Adamson
Listen to article now
Download article as mp3
Email article to a friend
Download PDF version
Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists."
But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.
When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...
1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5
Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6
2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.
The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?
3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.
The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?
Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.
4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.
This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.
There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence -- arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?
5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.
I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.
I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."
Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.
He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."8 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."9
What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.10
Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.
Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."11 This is God, in action.
Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."12
God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.
If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.
This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."13 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."
God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."14
So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way. If you need more information about Jesus' claim to divinity, or about God's existence, or if you have similar important questions, please email us.
I just asked Jesus into my life (some helpful information follows)...
I may want to ask Jesus into my life, please explain this more fully...
I have a question...
About the Author: As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a close friend. In challenging the beliefs of her friend, Marilyn was amazed to learn the wealth of objective evidence pointing to the existence of God. After about a year of persistent questioning, she responded to God's offer to come into her life and has found faith in Him to be constantly substantiated and greatly rewarding.
(1) Romans 1:19-21
(2) Jeremiah 29:13-14
(3) R.E.D. Clark, Creation (London: Tyndale Press, 1946), p. 20
(4) The Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Institute of Science (Chicago, IL)
(5) Ibid.
(6) Ibid.
(7) Ibid.
(8) John 8:12
(9) John 14:6
(10) John 14:11
(11) Jeremiah 31:3
(12) John 3:16
(13) Revelation 3:20
(14) John 10:27-29
quote from site: "By Marilyn Adamson
Listen to article now
Download article as mp3
Email article to a friend
Download PDF version
Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists."
But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.
When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...
1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5
Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6
2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.
The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?
3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.
The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?
Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.
4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.
This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.
There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence -- arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?
5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.
I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.
I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."
Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.
He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."8 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."9
What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.10
Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.
Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."11 This is God, in action.
Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."12
God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.
If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.
This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."13 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."
God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."14
So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way. If you need more information about Jesus' claim to divinity, or about God's existence, or if you have similar important questions, please email us.
I just asked Jesus into my life (some helpful information follows)...
I may want to ask Jesus into my life, please explain this more fully...
I have a question...
About the Author: As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a close friend. In challenging the beliefs of her friend, Marilyn was amazed to learn the wealth of objective evidence pointing to the existence of God. After about a year of persistent questioning, she responded to God's offer to come into her life and has found faith in Him to be constantly substantiated and greatly rewarding.
(1) Romans 1:19-21
(2) Jeremiah 29:13-14
(3) R.E.D. Clark, Creation (London: Tyndale Press, 1946), p. 20
(4) The Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Institute of Science (Chicago, IL)
(5) Ibid.
(6) Ibid.
(7) Ibid.
(8) John 8:12
(9) John 14:6
(10) John 14:11
(11) Jeremiah 31:3
(12) John 3:16
(13) Revelation 3:20
(14) John 10:27-29
Monkey Mak33
Registered Member
Also i would like to ad. That the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.
Monkey Mak33
Registered Member
ps how do i do the quotey thingy
Monkey Mak33
Registered Member
Ahem
weve examined about oh i dunno 1 billion planets would be a good guesstimate anyway well we've only been sure about one thing. that earth has life on it now the number is climbing each day and if weve found any life for certain except for ours, then wed probably be notified of it quickly through press and whatnot, however we've only got one weve found so far. can ya guess which one so im going to have to say that the odds of there being life on other planets SO FAR
would be ohh i dunno
1 : ~1billion(and growing)
another iteresting fact, nostradamus... athiest predictor, as you all know is quite famous for his predicitons being awkwardly accurate, well funny that in his lost book it says: christian church ends in 2011 and the world ends in 2012 kinda funny its not proven but hes athiest, kinda has to mean something now im just pointing out facts that i know are true for certain that HAVE happened and theres no way to prove they havent happened, so if you choose to not believe that these events that we can prove that have taken place arent true, well go ahead and dont believe that man had walked on the moon,
----referring to previous quote----
weve examined about oh i dunno 1 billion planets would be a good guesstimate anyway well we've only been sure about one thing. that earth has life on it now the number is climbing each day and if weve found any life for certain except for ours, then wed probably be notified of it quickly through press and whatnot, however we've only got one weve found so far. can ya guess which one so im going to have to say that the odds of there being life on other planets SO FAR
would be ohh i dunno
1 : ~1billion(and growing)
another iteresting fact, nostradamus... athiest predictor, as you all know is quite famous for his predicitons being awkwardly accurate, well funny that in his lost book it says: christian church ends in 2011 and the world ends in 2012 kinda funny its not proven but hes athiest, kinda has to mean something now im just pointing out facts that i know are true for certain that HAVE happened and theres no way to prove they havent happened, so if you choose to not believe that these events that we can prove that have taken place arent true, well go ahead and dont believe that man had walked on the moon,
----referring to previous quote----
We really don't have that many planets to compare Earth to. Only a scattered few have been detected amongst the cosmos, mostly Jupiter sized planets because of technological constraints, and even with these planets the data is extremely limited. It's perfectly arguable that had the Earth not been fit to sustain life, there could well be any number of planets out there which do support life, with inhabitants asking how they could have possibly come to be, just like us.
This is false, plain and simple. The Earth is not a constant distance from the sun, because its orbit is not circular. The Earth and all the other planets have elliptical orbits, meaning the distances between them and the sun change all the time. Now one might argue that substantial changes to Earth's orbit could mean catastrophe, but I see no solid reason to say that the Earth needs to keep a perfect distance from the sun and that any changes to our orbit will spell instant doom.
What would be so bad about losing the tides? What evidence is there that oceans wouldn't still circulate well enough to cleanse impurities, excluding human industrial waste?
One doesn't. The brain is incredibly complicated and poorly understood. But we have some pretty solid evidence of how human brains and their animal precursors developed stage by stage through evolution.
Where are the calculations showing that life evolving over billions of years in a giant laboratory called Earth is statistically impossible? More importantly, how are we to verify that these calculations are based on reasonable assumptions?
For your info, human DNA is filled with all kinds of useless junk and mistakes, much like you'd expect to see in a randomized process. On the whole, however, evolution as it is currently understood is no more lucky to have occurred than a ball is to have rolled to the bottom of a hill. There are plausible mechanisms for how life as we know it could have come into existence, and there is a great deal of evidence supporting many of these mechanisms, right down to the production of self-replicating RNA molecules in lab conditions similar to primordial Earth.
To state with certainty that there is a God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is no God (or no logical reason to assume the existence of one). But it's moot really as the article you quote says below- numbers alone don't matter, or Galileo would have never prevailed.
Noone has ever calculated this "numerical likelihood".
Isn't it disturbing that if the personal faith of millions or billions of people is to be used as an argument for God's existence, that most of these people can't even agree on the basic essentials of their beliefs?
No, a genuine skeptic reserves judgement until they have weighed all the available evidence. There is no evidence to date that there absolutely cannot be a God, so a skeptic would never draw this conclusion.
So the skeptic is asked if they can really be so certain that God doesn't exist... and yet the article claims we can be certain of the fact that God indeed does exist. Doesn't sound very objective to me.
Every atheist or agnostic comes to their set of beliefs by a different path and for different reasons. It would be foolish for someone to attempt to speak for all atheists even if they once considered themself to be one.
This point isn't worth debating, I'm not here to pick and choose between religions. They're all equally presumptious as far as I'm concerned.
You need to seriously take some time to learn planetary science and stellar astronomy, because from this paragraph you clearly don't have a clue. Not a clue. Earth is the only planet we've explored in detail, and we've barely even scratched the surface. We've sent a few weak little robots to Mars and some of the other planets and moons in our solar system, which really ain't gonna find squat. I could explain how primitive interstellar planetary science is and how little we can actually see with our technology at the moment, but it's not worth it. I can't debate you on this stuff until you actually learn the science. When Captain Kirk beams down to a planet and starts walking around exploring it, that's not actually what NASA does.
Nostradamus can't be said to have predicted anything until it can be unambiguously determined what the heck it even is that he actually said. Historians are still arguing over whether he was actually writing about what was happening around him in his own times, so I don't think there's a case to be made that any of his writings were secret prophecies, unless you twist the words around 'til you get what you want.
Oh man, perfect example on how facts get filtered through religious beliefs and are altered SIGNIFICANTLY from the actual truth. (life story of the church?)
Like a previous poster has mentioned, weve only discovered about 293 extra solar planets (not billions). Furthermore we have NO IDEA of the chemical makeup of these planets and many are several hundred times larger than our own planet(gas giants). In fact the only reason the planets are detected is the gravitational wobble of the star caused by the planet, which produces a red/blue shift depending on where the planet is in orbit.
If there is a God, I would stake my soul on the bet we are NOT alone in this universe.
You didn't prove aliens don't exist. Nostrildumbass made lots of predictions, many of them totally wrong, some were bound to be right, it's just math, he didn't predict anything specific.
You know, that's exactly how christianity (any religion) works, not atheism. Atheists simply recognize that there is not sufficient evidence to believe in a god.
A belief in God is just a shrug of the shoulders. How convenient it is to have an indescribable entity, who holds the answer to everything but can't be questioned about it. He 'moves in mysterious ways', remember?
Now 'answers' has twisted the definition of Atheism to suit their own purposes, something that no-one needs do if their argument is able to stand up on actual fact.
An Atheist is someone who quite simply, doesn't believe in any God; not someone professing to be omnipresent. Why must you Theists bring everything down to your own basic, primitive level?
Now 'answers' has twisted the definition of Atheism to suit their own purposes, something that no-one needs do if their argument is able to stand up on actual fact.
An Atheist is someone who quite simply, doesn't believe in any God; not someone professing to be omnipresent. Why must you Theists bring everything down to your own basic, primitive level?
Money Mak33,
Please don’t post long copy paste articles again. Give the web ref instead please.
Please also don’t preach or proselytize, which is what you are doing here. I am tempted to delete your post but some have already responded. However, it does serve as a useful and fundamental example of almost every logical fallacy generated by theism.
If you choose to read through this forum you would find every assertion and claim in your post has been thoroughly destroyed many times over.
The issue that non believers have is that the quality of claims of evidence for theism do not compare well with say scientific evidence. In short, theist claims lack credibility.
The implication is that the Earth was designed for man. It ignores the obvious that man is a result of the environment in which he evolved, so of course it is a perfect fit. Had the earth evolved differently then either life would be different or would not exist.
The choice is that there is an incredible powerful being that exists and is capable of creating entire universes, and is invisible, immaterial, undetectable, and unobservable, all of which have no precedent or evidential support, versus a simple emotional delusion that is well understood and common place.
So really the central theme of Christianity, the sacrifice etc, is pure farce.
Please don’t post long copy paste articles again. Give the web ref instead please.
Please also don’t preach or proselytize, which is what you are doing here. I am tempted to delete your post but some have already responded. However, it does serve as a useful and fundamental example of almost every logical fallacy generated by theism.
If you choose to read through this forum you would find every assertion and claim in your post has been thoroughly destroyed many times over.
This is propaganda intended to lure the audience into thinking that all forms of evidence are the same.
The issue that non believers have is that the quality of claims of evidence for theism do not compare well with say scientific evidence. In short, theist claims lack credibility.
More propaganda to imply that people are unable to weigh appropriate levels of evidence and make informed decisions.
This claim has two main flaws. Firstly it contradicts the earlier statement that there is sufficient evidence, and secondly it is a call to choose between an emotional evaluation rather than one based on reason. I.e. one must abandon reason. It implies that one cannot have a strong heartfelt desire for a god to exist and at the same time rationally evaluate any credible evidence.
First major fallacy that complexity only results from design. We have no precedent that anything complex arose from anything other than simpler components. Even man made objects all arose from simpler attempts. And biological evolution indicates the same trend.
Falsely implying there is a long list whereas in fact there are very few, and seriously flawed.
This is the next major and classic logical fallacy.
The implication is that the Earth was designed for man. It ignores the obvious that man is a result of the environment in which he evolved, so of course it is a perfect fit. Had the earth evolved differently then either life would be different or would not exist.
A continuation of the same fallacy, as are all the similar examples in this sequence.
The obvious question then is that if the planet is so dominated by the oceans and was designed for man then why doesn’t man have gills and can filter salt water naturally.
Same fallacy that complexity cannot result from simplicity.
This is basic ignorance about biological evolution. Evolution is not based on random chance but on deterministic interactions.
Take a biology science class.
The same fallacy and ignorance that evolution is based on randomness.
The third major logical fallacy. This is known as argumentum ad populum – the idea that because so many people believe something then it must be true. If this is the case then we have to believe that at one time the Earth was indeed flat because at a time in the past almost everyone on the planet believed it was flat.
You must be starting to believe your own propaganda. There appears to be an inverse relationship betweens scientific discovery and religion – as science grows then religions decline.
The problem there is that there is no single scrap of credible evidence that shows that any such claims are based in truth.
Preaching. Irrelevant.
And how can this perspective be separated from delusion?
And again how can these views be separated from delusion?
The choice is that there is an incredible powerful being that exists and is capable of creating entire universes, and is invisible, immaterial, undetectable, and unobservable, all of which have no precedent or evidential support, versus a simple emotional delusion that is well understood and common place.
Preaching again, irrelevant.
The problem with the Jesus myth is that no one can show any evidence that he actually existed. What he might have said have come from the myth makers whose writing ended up forming a religion.
The issue here is a deep emotional implication that we can relate to a loving father seeing his son sacrificed. To us that would indeed be significant, that we lost a loved son and possibly will never see him again. But the guy was meant to be resurrected and that pretty much blows away any sympathy we might have. And he was gone for, what, 3 days (e.g. a long weekend). Now, if the Jesus character went away permanently then the story might be credible and we could relate to a god that had made a permanent sacrifice. But remember that if the Christian god is omniscient then he would know everything that was going to happen and so again he would not have suffered any anguish over apparently losing his son, who was not lost anyway.
So really the central theme of Christianity, the sacrifice etc, is pure farce.
Nope, just blatant preaching, based on a series of fallacious arguments.
Facts quoted = zero.
Bwahaha, we've barely "examined" this one.
That depends, but it is certainly an interesting question to ask. If, for instance, Phoenix found signs of simple life on Mars would it actually change your world view significantly? Would very basic life be good enough to do that or would you require elephants and dinosaurs? If anything bigger than basic bacteria were found - let's say the skeletal remains of a humanoid, do you really think it would be spread to any and all through CNN? What do you honestly think the worldwide impact would be if the news came on saying that a robot on Mars had found skeletal remains of a humanoid? Such news would surely have to be witheld from the public? I don't think the majority of people are ready for such news.
Hasn't there already been a thread that covers most of these so-called arguments?
Oh yes, that's right - only most of the threads in the religion forum!
Argument from complexity and personal incredulity.
Again, argument from complexity and personal incredulity.
Oh look - argument from personal incredulity (and a lack of understanding of probability, evolution (biological / chemical etc) and a whole array of other matters.
These people could be referred to as sheep.
Can I have him subjected to a restraining order, please??
And Frodo destroying the One Ring is the clearest, most specific picture of the existence of Hobbits.
Drivel.
Not even funny drivel.
Monkey Mak33
Registered Member
You guys might think me dumb but thats not me..
Thats an astro physicist talking i just didnt know how to quote it ill give you the site if u want but i can asure u all that info is true now no need to be offensive, heck i didnt even write it. but i pretty much believed it and that also seems to have sparked a flare. lol guess u guys actually got angry at somethin i said
lol oh well just cant handle the truth oh and im taking my leave off of sciforums ive had enough of proving u wrong
bye bye- f0r3v3r
----Monkey Mak33---
Thats an astro physicist talking i just didnt know how to quote it ill give you the site if u want but i can asure u all that info is true now no need to be offensive, heck i didnt even write it. but i pretty much believed it and that also seems to have sparked a flare. lol guess u guys actually got angry at somethin i said
lol oh well just cant handle the truth oh and im taking my leave off of sciforums ive had enough of proving u wrong
bye bye- f0r3v3r
----Monkey Mak33---
Im beginning to think these forums should have a mandatory IQ/competence test.
And please, send me the website. I beg you.
And please, send me the website. I beg you.
- Status