Who said these words?

[Flores]

Pss.22
[1] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
[2] O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
[3] But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
[4] Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
[5] They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
[6] But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
[7] All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
[8] He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
[9] But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
[10] I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
[11] Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
[12] Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
[13] They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
[14] I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
[15] My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
[16] For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
[17] I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
[18] They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
[19] But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
[20] Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
[21] Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
[22] I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
[23] Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
[24] For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
[25] My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
[26] The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
[27] All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
[28] For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
[29] All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
[30] A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
[31] They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.


_________________________________________________

the question is who is the man speaking those words and who is the entity being referred to as THEE.

To the christians on this board...By what ounce of imagination do you take these words to imply that Jesus is god himself...I know that if I was as down as the man above that I would use similar or even stronger words to plea my desperate case...

 

[okinrus]

To the christians on this board...By what ounce of imagination do you take these words to imply that Jesus is god himself...I know that if I was as down as the man above that I would use similar or even stronger words to plea my desperate case...

Christians don't use psalm 22 to prove that Jesus is God. Since Jesus said on the cross "my, my God why have you forsaken me" it is against claims that the Father forsake Jesus. Of course Muslims don't believe that the Father would ever forsake Jesus but they deny the entire crucification. Jesus does not need to plea his case. The Father is God of Jesus yet both share in one divinity.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by okinrus
Christians don't use psalm 22 to prove that Jesus is God.

Precisely, Christians pick and chose the verses that they use to proof that Jesus is god, do you know why???? because Jesus is not god and never claimed to be one...and they sure ignore much and adopt less and less of their bible every day.

And by the way, god forsake Jesus as a messanger and an apostle to Israel....God never forsake Jesus to be take his place and steal the worship and glory of god to himself.

 

[guthrie]

blah blah blah. So, Flores, when are you going to turn your razor sharp intellect on your own religion?

 

[spidergoat]

Are you implying that because he uses the phrase Thee, that Jesus is not God? Perhaps he was, and didn't realize it until later. God can do anything, can't he? Even play hide-and-seek with himself in the form of mortal beings. Your argument is weak. The bible is poetry, which is a kind of language that can express more subtle concepts than the language of scientific thought and logic.

 

[okinrus]

Precisely, Christians pick and chose the verses that they use to proof that Jesus is god, do you know why???? because Jesus is not god and never claimed to be one...and they sure ignore much and adopt less and less of their bible every day.

I hate to break it to you but Christians through the holy Spirit chose what books to canonize in the bible. Psalm22 is a generic pslam probably recited by the Isrealites everyday and it's somewhat a leap that Jesus indentifies of himself in this pslam. Jesus never claimed to be God but the Son of God. We recognize the Son of God to share in one divinity of God because Jesus was not created.

And by the way, god forsake Jesus as a messanger and an apostle to Israel....God never forsake Jesus to be take his place and steal the worship and glory of god to himself.

Don't muslims believe that Jesus was perfect in following the will of God? Jesus did not steal the glory of the Father. In his own words he said that he came to glorify the Father. Similarly, Jesus says that those who glorify the Son glorify the Father.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by okinrus
I hate to break it to you but Christians through the holy Spirit chose what books to canonize in the bible. Psalm22 is a generic pslam probably recited by the Isrealites everyday and it's somewhat a leap that Jesus indentifies of himself in this pslam. Jesus never claimed to be God but the Son of God. We recognize the Son of God to share in one divinity of God because Jesus was not created.

Don't muslims believe that Jesus was perfect in following the will of God? Jesus did not steal the glory of the Father. In his own words he said that he came to glorify the Father. Similarly, Jesus says that those who glorify the Son glorify the Father.
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M*W: Please explain what you mean by "the holy spirit chose what books to canonize in the bible."

Also, please explain what you mean by "Jesus was not created." If he EXISTED, he would have had to be "CREATED," unless of course you mean he was CREATED as in myth. According to Christian doctrine, Jesus was begotten like everybody else. He was conceived in his mother's womb, (I'm not arguing the virginity of Mary or how Jesus was conceived), and she birthed him in the natural way through the birth canal with the help of a midwife as mentioned in the gospels. There are also gospel references as you know giving the genetic lineages of Jesus through Mary and again through Joseph.

The later Nicene doctrine of 325 AD implies that Jesus was separate from God in that he was "begotten by the Father, God FROM God, light FROM light, true God FROM true God, begotten not made...". So was he or was he not created?

Glorifying our creator is the only reason we're here, too, so Jesus didn't corner the market on glorifying our creator. Jesus was an example of what humanity would achieve spiritually--one in being with our creator (i.e. "the kingdom of God is within," etc.). Salvation comes to the human race not THROUGH the death of Jesus but BY the example Jesus taught. The fact that we're here is the proof of salvation of our eternal "salvation" in unity with our creator. Jesus never claimed to BE God. His teaching provided humanity with the explanation that we are not just mere humans, but that we were created to be ONE WITH GOD, and we are all here for the sole purpose of glorifying God. And because we are alive at this moment, that is proof of salvation. Salvation comes not through Jesus' death and resurrection, but our own death and resurrection (rebirth of the spirit). There is absolutely no death to the spirit.

You stated that Jesus said that, "those who glorify the Son, glorify the Father." Again, Jesus was the example that we are One in Being with the Father as he was. In other words, like I've said many times on this forum, the human race is the face of God on Earth. We all share in the One Spirit of God, in One evolving-toward-perfection human creation, in One Humanity, and in One Spirit. The problem people have in misunderstanding this concept is that they limit the efficacy of their own spirit by giving Jesus credit for their total salvation. This is not what Jesus taught. God created us to SHARE in the existence of God on this Earth. Humanity has a multiple mission: We share the mission of our creator God. We share the Body of our creator God. We share the Spirit of pour creator God. Therefore, we are One with God, and we are God. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it must be a duck. Jesus wasn't teaching that HE was the only vehicle for the One Spirit of God, but that we all SHARE in the total interconnectedness of God.

 

[Mucker]

...imply that Jesus is god himself...

Personally I am one Christian who has never said jesus was God himself (as far as I know anyway).

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Mucker
Personally I am one Christian who has never said jesus was God himself (as far as I know anyway).
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M*W: Interesting thought, Mucker. If you have doubt that Jesus was not truly "God himself," how do you as a Christian reconcile that if Jesus was not actually God, do you still believe he died for you? Since you said this I am just curious why you claim to be a Christian. You brought up a good point.

 

[okinrus]

M*W: Please explain what you mean by "the holy spirit chose what books to canonize in the bible."

Just what I said. Through the holy Spirit and Tradition the Church choose books representative of her teachings.

Also, please explain what you mean by "Jesus was not created." If he EXISTED, he would have had to be "CREATED," unless of course you mean he was CREATED as in myth.

I don't quite get the point you are making. I am who I am has always existed and was not created.

The later Nicene doctrine of 325 AD implies that Jesus was separate from God in that he was "begotten by the Father, God FROM God, light FROM light, true God FROM true God, begotten not made...". So was he or was he not created?

Jesus was begotten from the father but eternally begotten from the Father. Not made because there exists no time or place when Jesus did not exists. When Jesus assumed human nature, we speak of the incarnation. But Jesus existed before the incarnation because he said "before Abraham, I AM".

Jesus never claimed to BE God. His teaching provided humanity with the explanation that we are not just mere humans, but that we were created to be ONE WITH GOD, and we are all here for the sole purpose of glorifying God. And because we are alive at this moment, that is proof of salvation. Salvation comes not through Jesus' death and resurrection, but our own death and resurrection (rebirth of the spirit). There is absolutely no death to the spirit.

I don't quite get your theology on this. Are we in heaven? There is no savior but God(Isaiah). Our death and rebirth surely cannot save us. Only God can. We are not justified by our life but our faith in God, His life within us.

This is not what Jesus taught.

I won' question hypothetically what Jesus taught. But as is contained in the gospel accounts, Jesus said "no one is good but God". We don't have goodness. Jesus also said that he does nothing without his Father approval. Far short of claiming that we are god.

God created us to SHARE in the existence of God on this Earth. Humanity has a multiple mission: We share the mission of our creator God. We share the Body of our creator God. We share the Spirit of pour creator God. Therefore, we are One with God, and we are God. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it must be a duck. Jesus wasn't teaching that HE was the only vehicle for the One Spirit of God, but that we all SHARE in the total interconnectedness of God.

If we are god then is Jesus god too? Jesus said that no one enters into His father's kingdom unless if they enter through him because he is the gate.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by okinrus
Just what I said. Through the holy Spirit and Tradition the Church choose books representative of her teachings.
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M*W: You did not answer my question. All you did was repeat your vague and meaningless answer. I didn't expect you to understand my question nor have an answer. I asked you to explain what YOU MEAN about the holy spirit CHOOSING the canonical texts. I didn't ask about church tradition. I am well aware of church tradition. I asked you only about the workings of the holy spirit in selecting the books
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I don't quite get the point you are making. I am who I am has always existed and was not created.
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M*W: Again, I did not ask you about the "I AM WHO I AM." Thats STILL a vague answer even today! I asked you what YOU MEANT when you said "Jesus was not created." Explain your definition of the meaning of the words "not created" in view of the fact that Jesus was conceived in and born out of the womb of Mary. I don't think this question is too difficult to answer, but the answer is not "I AM WHO I AM."
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Jesus was begotten from the father but eternally begotten from the Father. Not made because there exists no time or place when Jesus did not exists. When Jesus assumed human nature, we speak of the incarnation. But Jesus existed before the incarnation because he said "before Abraham, I AM".
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M*W: Aren't we all eternally begotten from our Creator? Is there a time and place that our spirit did not exist? When our spirit "assumes human nature," isn't our eternal spirit incarnated again? We also existed before our incarnation. There is no death to the spirit but only to our mortal (i.e. disposable) bodies of flesh and blood. Because God exists for all time, so do we.
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I don't quite get your theology on this. Are we in heaven? There is no savior but God(Isaiah). Our death and rebirth surely cannot save us. Only God can. We are not justified by our life but our faith in God, His life within us.
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M*W: I don't expect you to understand my theology/thealogy. Where eternal life exists, there is heaven. Heaven IS eternal life. Heaven is "the world without end." Eternal life in the spirit is the "alpha and the omega." Our spirit IS eternal. It is the One Spirit of God. So, to answer your question, "Are we in heaven?," it would be more correct to say that heaven is in us.
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I won' question hypothetically what Jesus taught. But as is contained in the gospel accounts, Jesus said "no one is good but God". We don't have goodness. Jesus also said that he does nothing without his Father approval. Far short of claiming that we are god.
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M*W: Don't you think perhaps the scribes of the Septuigint could have mistranscribed "no one is good but God" from "no one is God but God?" (This explains the "I AM WHO I AM.") If we didn't have "goodness" we wouldn't exist! We would not contain the One Spirit of God nor would we keep incarnating! I agree what Jesus said about his "Father's approval." Since our consciousness and spirit are God "within," everything we do is through the confirmation of our consciousness which IS God. Otherwise, we'd have the intelligence of the apes. I will disagree with you until I take my last breath, the human race is the face of God on Earth. We ARE God!
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If we are god then is Jesus god too? Jesus said that no one enters into His father's kingdom unless if they enter through him because he is the gate.
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M*W: Yes, that would make Jesus God, too, on an equal basis with all humanity. "Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is within." The "gate" he spoke of was the human incarnation of the spirit. The "gate" is the teaching and knowing that God dwells within. The human race is the kingdom of God on Earth. Humanity is the "gate" of God.

 

[okinrus]

M*W: You did not answer my question. All you did was repeat your vague and meaningless answer. I didn't expect you to understand my question nor have an answer. I asked you to explain what YOU MEAN about the holy spirit CHOOSING the canonical texts. I didn't ask about church tradition. I am well aware of church tradition. I asked you only about the workings of the holy spirit in selecting the books

I believe what Jesus said said. The holy Spirit will guide you to all truth and that the Church will prevail against the gates of hell. This is not to say that every book in the canon has the same weight as the four gospel accounts by no means. Moreoever, I think some of the books were chosen by Tradition and the conventual logical means of discovering truth. The holy Spirit would only have to impede if a book that taught falsehood was going to be chosen. In this case, the holy Spirit would reveal that book as being false.

M*W: Again, I did not ask you about the "I AM WHO I AM." Thats STILL a vague answer even today! I asked you what YOU MEANT when you said "Jesus was not created." Explain your definition of the meaning of the words "not created" in view of the fact that Jesus was conceived in and born out of the womb of Mary. I don't think this question is too difficult to answer, but the answer is not "I AM WHO I AM."

Jesus assumed human nature in the incarnation. Although God is infinite, Jesus bonded with the human nature in a hypostatic union. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm When I said not created, I meant that Jesus existed before birth. I really can't explain any deeper than this. When Mary asked how it could be so, she was given a sort of vague response as well.

M*W: Aren't we all eternally begotten from our Creator? Is there a time and place that our spirit did not exist? When our spirit "assumes human nature," isn't our eternal spirit incarnated again? We also existed before our incarnation. There is no death to the spirit but only to our mortal (i.e. disposable) bodies of flesh and blood. Because God exists for all time, so do we.

We are all begotten by God insofar as we follow Him and have not been rejected. We are not, however, eternally begotten by God. This expresses more of a relationship that Jesus plays in the godhead rather than a specific time when that relationship was formed. I do not believe in eternal spirits but some early chrisitans such as Origen did and latter day Mormons. You are mortal and have existed since conception. Your spirit is not imortal although it appears so because in God's mercy he does not vanish a soul into non-existance. From what I've read on this, the Catholic church does not really believe in a duality between spirit and body. We believe that while living, the body and soul are inextricably linked.

M*W: Don't you think perhaps the scribes of the Septuigint could have mistranscribed "no one is good but God" from "no one is God but God?"

This passage does not really concern the Septuagint, which usually refers to the old testament. I do not think that greek as the same sort of trouble that english has with "God" stemming from "good" but in the context of that passage it is clear what Jesus meant. He said "why do you call me good?" and then "no one is good but God". A further explanation is given below what Jesus said. We are only good insofar as we have the grace of God.

I will disagree with you until I take my last breath, the human race is the face of God on Earth. We ARE God!

In some ways I think you are refering to the anti-christ who I believe is the face of all evil on earth. If there is anything that I'm sure of, I'm sure that I am not God. I do not quite understand why you are so adamant about being God. Does this make God have 10 billion persons in one divine nature? What are your requirements for being God and what are the attribitutes of God? I'm quite certain that I have been created, that I am not omnipresent, that I'm not omnipotent, and that I've never really created anything(conservation of matter and energy).

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by okinrus
I believe what Jesus said said. The holy Spirit will guide you to all truth and that the Church will prevail against the gates of hell.
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M*W: How do you determine what Jesus actually said, and what Paul said he said? If the One Spirit of God (you call this the "holy spirit") guides us to the truth, then one must question "What IS the truth?" And another must ask, "What is the true body of the 'Church?'" With that answered, I would also ask in what way does the Church "prevail against the gates of hell?" I explained the word "gate" previously, so with that in mind, the "gates of hell" need a new explaination as to what they really are?
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This is not to say that every book in the canon has the same weight as the four gospel accounts by no means. Moreoever, I think some of the books were chosen by Tradition and the conventual logical means of discovering truth.
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M*W: As in the "gift of discernment," an idea created by Paul?
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The holy Spirit would only have to impede if a book that taught falsehood was going to be chosen. In this case, the holy Spirit would reveal that book as being false.
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M*W: Are you saying "impede" instead of "intercede?" Do you believe these church fathers were "inspired" just like the writers of the books were allegedly "inspired?"
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Jesus assumed human nature in the incarnation.
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M*W: We all assume human nature in our incarnation.
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Although God is infinite, Jesus bonded with the human nature in a hypostatic union. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm
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M*W: Then please explain why Jesus was conceived in his mother's womb, grew from conception, and passed through her birth canal to emerge in this world? How could Jesus merely "bond with human nature" when he had the totality of human nature just as we do?
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When I said not created, I meant that Jesus existed before birth. I really can't explain any deeper than this. When Mary asked how it could be so, she was given a sort of vague response as well.
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M*W: We all existed before our most recent birth when we are born again of amniotic fluid (water) and are an incarnation of the eternal spirit of God. That's what eternal life is.
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We are all begotten by God insofar as we follow Him and have not been rejected.
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M*W: We are begotten not made. In other words, we evolved and were not created right off in adult form. This has nothing to do with "following" God, it is the God within who leads us! Those who are rejected by God would not exist. There is no other purpose of our existence except to glorify God. We are the vessel that carries the One Spirit of God across the face of the Earth. That is our only purpose in life.
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We are not, however, eternally begotten by God. This expresses more of a relationship that Jesus plays in the godhead rather than a specific time when that relationship was formed. I do not believe in eternal spirits but some early chrisitans such as Origen did and latter day Mormons. You are mortal and have existed since conception. Your spirit is not imortal although it appears so because in God's mercy he does not vanish a soul into non-existance. From what I've read on this, the Catholic church does not really believe in a duality between spirit and body. We believe that while living, the body and soul are inextricably linked.
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M*W: See reply above. You say Jesus is part of the godhead, but so are we. This relationship is not "formed," because it always "is." I can't say if there are "eternal spirits," because I believe only in the One Spirit of God that dwells within the human race. Our bodies are mortal, our spirit is not. Our soul (spirit) is eternal and not mortal. I would tend to think that God doesn't "vanish" (i.e. disappear) but "vanquishes" (i.e. conquers, defeats) a portion of the One Spirit that is not used totally to glorify the creator. The "soul" is indestructable, but when an incarnated one defies the only purpose of his human existence (to glorify God), the eternal spirit would be removed from that entity and he would not be allowed to incarnate again. He would be spiritually dead and, thus, would be in a state of what you call "hell" where there is no hope for another incarnation. You are correct when you say that "while living, the body and soul are inextricably linked." The body still experiences genetic decay, but there is no destruction of the spirit.

The RCC not accepting the "duality" of body and spirit is strange since it accepts the "triality" of the trinity which is the Creator, the Created, and the One Spirit of God that dwells within the entire human race.
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This passage does not really concern the Septuagint, which usually refers to the old testament.
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M*W: I thought the Septuagint was a Greek word that stood for the original translation of the NT into Greek, and the Talmud and Tanakh were the names of the OT?
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I do not think that greek as the same sort of trouble that english has with "God" stemming from "good" but in the context of that passage it is clear what Jesus meant. He said "why do you call me good?" and then "no one is good but God". A further explanation is given below what Jesus said. We are only good insofar as we have the grace of God.
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M*W: This statement attributed to Jesus is ambiguous, but I believe he was trying to get the message across that only good stems from God. I don't know what he was implying, but as I interpret this, I believe he meant that God is All Good--We are All God. Your last statement is correct. We are given the grace of God by our existence. Of course, some can deny this grace, deny the existence of God, deny their own right to exist. But because we were incarnated into this life for the sole purpose of glorifying God, if we are alive at this moment, we have the grace of God within us.
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In some ways I think you are refering to the anti-christ who I believe is the face of all evil on earth. If there is anything that I'm sure of, I'm sure that I am not God. I do not quite understand why you are so adamant about being God. Does this make God have 10 billion persons in one divine nature? What are your requirements for being God and what are the attribitutes of God? I'm quite certain that I have been created, that I am not omnipresent, that I'm not omnipotent, and that I've never really created anything(conservation of matter and energy).
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M*W: Yes, your knowledge and perception of who I am referring to is understandably the antichrist, because that is what your religion teaches. But to deny that you are not God is to deny the grace of God within you! I do not claim to be THE God, I claim to be a simple vessel for the One Spirit of God on Earth. I see this one and the same God in my fellow human beings. I can see the grace of God in them. It's so much easier to see it in others than in oneself. You are part of God, I am part of God, Cris and Godless are also part of God. I'll make a stretch here and say that even ConsequentAtheist and all our Muslim brothers and sisters share in the same God, and Jenyar is the choreographer. (No, I'm being silly here--no harm intended). If we start to look beyond the limiting dogmas of religion, we start seeing the unity and community of humanity as God. So, yes, God is 10 billion personalities in One Divine Nature -- the human race. The requirements for being God include:

1) be incarnated in a human body;
2) be a vehicle for the One Spirit of God across the face of the Earth;
3) be still and know that YOU are God.

The attributes of God are, well, just look in any mirror. This is the image of God, but that's not what it's about. It doesn't matter if we have a nose, two eyes, and a mouth or if we are green with purple eyes and have ten orange antennae. We're all "created" in and of God. We are the incarnation of the One Spirit of God. Therefore, we are God. Our interconnectedness with the entire human race is what makes us omnipresent and omnipotent. The power of one is a lot less effective than the power of the All. Everything in creation IS God; therefore, "I AM THAT I AM." To deny that you are God is to deny that God is God. We are One.

 

[miss khan]

Perhaps he was, and didn't realize it until later. God can do anything, can't he? Even play hide-and-seek with himself in the form of mortal beings.

That was amazing genius spidergoat.. so full of logic...
Who are YOU accusing of weak arguments?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by guthrie
blah blah blah. So, Flores, when are you going to turn your razor sharp intellect on your own religion?

And what religion would that be??? Please be precise in your answer....perhaps use a paragraph to describe MY religion....A one word answer is not acceptable.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by okinrus
Jesus never claimed to be God but the Son of God. We recognize the Son of God to share in one divinity of God because Jesus was not created.

And may you explain to me the meaning of the word son as used to describe the relationship of Jesus to god...Is it a biological sonship..obviously not, Is it a spiritual sonship...perhaps...but still what does that mean???Son relationships generally mean a production or continuation of an original design intended to take over...If the original design is complete on it's on, which I believe god is, rich of wants, then a son is not needed....Is Jesus a minigod who will one day grow to be a god?...or is Jesus a baby that will never grow?...Could the word son as used in the bible perhaps imply "servant of" or "follower of". I think so..At the least consider the fact that jesus was called the "son of david"..and the "son of man"..In addition, all christians believe that they are children of god..so what is the real meaning behind these words.

Originally posted by okinrus
Don't muslims believe that Jesus was perfect in following the will of God?

No, Muslims refrain from judging humans that includes Muhammed, jesus, ect...We believe that these guys delivered the word of god and were strengthened by the holly spirit, but we don't know the hearts of the apostles and god shall judge them based on what they gained or lost in their lives. Muslims also filter the Quran with their hearts. Our filters are all different and thus every muslim have a different believe than the other, and to god is our return and judgement, and we submit to god.

Originally posted by okinrus
Jesus did not steal the glory of the Father. In his own words he said that he came to glorify the Father. Similarly, Jesus says that those who glorify the Son glorify the Father.

You completely missed my point. You must understand the meaning of the term glory to even understand what Jesus was saying...Jesus as an apostle of god has a specific function of delivering the message...When some people completely miss the message and start calling Jesus god and such, Jesus is not glorified, but ashamed...Just like he said above.
[7] All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
[8] He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Those people who scorn Jesus are as bad as those that make a god out of Jesus...Both parties missed the point...It it enough for jesus that people trust in god, and that in turns glorifies Jesus in reaffirming that Jesus brought the truth. By denying the truth and god, you're calling Jesus a liar, and not glorifying him.

I don't know about you guys, but to glorify me is to simply agree with my believe or place me in the correct light and the correct context...If Ms. Flores comes up with this idea out of the blue that she totally believed in it, my reward wouldn't be money or even being appointed as Queen, but it would be confirmation that I had the truth and true application of the truth that I brought...The most thing you can do to hurt me is to corrupt my ideas by twisting it and adding to it and still claim it to be mine....Nothing can hurt an idealist, which Jesus was, more than changing the idea....It's like telling Einstien that he invented quantum..Einstien hates quantum and never believed it, and even though you are thinking that you are glorifying Einstein by attributing to him a great theory, you are really insulting him..I believe Jesus means the same thing when speaking of glory and shame. Seeing Jesus in the correct light is the most glory that can be given to jesus, but many think of glory as parrot worshiping and blowing an object out of proportion, and it's nothing of the sort.

 

[okinrus]

M*W: How do you determine what Jesus actually said, and what Paul said he said?

Someone who is christian must trust the knowledge recieved by the Holy Scriptures. If Jesus was important in God's plan, then God will have made sure that what is written about him testifies truthfully.

If the One Spirit of God (you call this the "holy spirit") guides us to the truth, then one must question "What IS the truth?"

Jesus claimed to be the truth, the way, and the life.

And another must ask, "What is the true body of the 'Church?'"

Depends on context. Sometimes it includes protestant brethen other times it is inclusive of Catholics only. This is really just terminolgy for the sake of clarification and does not convey any doctrin.

With that answered, I would also ask in what way does the Church "prevail against the gates of hell?" I explained the word "gate" previously, so with that in mind, the "gates of hell" need a new explaination as to what they really are?

It's the middle area between hell and heaven. It is sort of a wasteland typified by exodus.

M*W: Are you saying "impede" instead of "intercede?"

Arkward sentance. Intercede is not the right word either. What I mean is that the holy Spirit would forbid that kind of fallacy to enter into the Church.

Do you believe these church fathers were "inspired" just like the writers of the books were allegedly "inspired?"

They were not apostles. They did not proclaim new doctrin. However, they were entrusted with preserving the Church. It's my belief that they had help from God.

M*W: Then please explain why Jesus was conceived in his mother's womb, grew from conception, and passed through her birth canal to emerge in this world? How could Jesus merely "bond with human nature" when he had the totality of human nature just as we do?

Jesus has a complely human nature and completly divine nature. These were united in the incarnation.

See reply above. You say Jesus is part of the godhead, but so are we.

Were not a divine part of the godhead. Are you claiming that when Dinos were around you existed? Since you do not seem to believe in heaven, where exactly did you exist?

M*W: I thought the Septuagint was a Greek word that stood for the original translation of the NT into Greek, and the Talmud and Tanakh were the names of the OT?

The Septuagint means of 70 schollars or something like that. It's a Greek old testament text before the Talmud. It contains the books that are in the Catholic canon plus a few others. But the actual books in it varies. It's older than the Massoretic hebrew text, and although the Septuagint has some short fallings, there are supposed to be known corruptions within the Massoretic text. The Septuagint is what most of the new testament quotes from.

The RCC not accepting the "duality" of body and spirit is strange since it accepts the "triality" of the trinity which is the Creator, the Created, and the One Spirit of God that dwells within the entire human race.

I think the position of duality is against certain protestant groups that see themselves have two natures: the flesh and the spirit. While the gospel given by Paul uses this metaphore, they are not really two separate natures, I think. I've heard other christians say they do not sin but their flesh nature sins.

1) be incarnated in a human body;
2) be a vehicle for the One Spirit of God across the face of the Earth;
3) be still and know that YOU are God.

I don't think the 3rd one counts. Since you do not seem to believe in anyway to percieve this divine statement aside from these rules, there is no way to know that these rules are truthful or that these rules are corrected. Definition 2 is recursive. For the sake of argument, where was God when there was no humans?

 

[okinrus]

And may you explain to me the meaning of the word son as used to describe the relationship of Jesus to god...Is it a biological sonship..obviously not, Is it a spiritual sonship...perhaps...but still what does that mean???Son relationships generally mean a production or continuation of an original design intended to take over...If the original design is complete on it's on, which I believe god is, rich of wants, then a son is not needed....Is Jesus a minigod who will one day grow to be a god?...or is Jesus a baby that will never grow?...Could the word son as used in the bible perhaps imply "servant of" or "follower of". I think so..At the least consider the fact that jesus was called the "son of david"..and the "son of man"..In addition, all christians believe that they are children of god..so what is the real meaning behind these words.

Children of God is a term that is used in the old testament in Deuteronomy where Moses gives the Isrealites the song of the Rock. At one point He says, "have you forgotten the Rock that begotten you." Jesus uses the term Son of God because he is the heir to His Father's kingdom and he does whatever the Father asks of him and everything that he asks from the Father he recieves. The son of Man is a term used by the prophet Ezekiel. But the context that Jesus uses the term is similar to the book of Enoch. In this book, the Son of Man is the firstborn of God's creation but it is not clear whether the Son of Man is God or not.

No, Muslims refrain from judging humans that includes Muhammed, jesus, ect...We believe that these guys delivered the word of god and were strengthened by the holly spirit, but we don't know the hearts of the apostles and god shall judge them based on what they gained or lost in their lives. Muslims also filter the Quran with their hearts. Our filters are all different and thus every muslim have a different believe than the other, and to god is our return and judgement, and we submit to god.

Perhaps this was in a hadith. I think the Quran says that the all the revelations from the prophets were perfect. I don't think this implies perfection though.

It's like telling Einstien that he invented quantum..Einstien hates quantum and never believed it, and even though you are thinking that you are glorifying Einstein by attributing to him a great theory, you are really insulting him..I believe Jesus means the same thing when speaking of glory and shame. Seeing Jesus in the correct light is the most glory that can be given to jesus, but many think of glory as parrot worshiping and blowing an object out of proportion, and it's nothing of the sort.

The end of Mathew shows his disciples worshiping him. Since Jesus claims that he is the light, I cannot see him differently.

 

[guthrie]

Originally posted by Flores
And what religion would that be??? Please be precise in your answer....perhaps use a paragraph to describe MY religion....A one word answer is not acceptable.

It would be helpful if you told us. I was refering in particular to that thread discussing the origins of the Quran. Are you a muslim, or a hybrid, or pagan or what?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by okinrus
Someone who is christian must trust the knowledge recieved by the Holy Scriptures. If Jesus was important in God's plan, then God will have made sure that what is written about him testifies truthfully.
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M*W: Then why didn't Jesus write anything himself? People who never knew him (Paul) did most of the writing, or he told MML&J what to write i.e. fulfillments of the OT prophecies.
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Jesus claimed to be the truth, the way, and the life.
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M*W: Humanity with the all of creation IS the "way," the "truth" (i.e. proof), and the "life" of God. We don't know for sure that Jesus or God ever existed because these ideas cannot be proven. We do know, however, that we exist, because the One Spirit of God (divine energy) is incarnated into our mortal body.
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Depends on context. Sometimes it includes protestant brethen other times it is inclusive of Catholics only. This is really just terminolgy for the sake of clarification and does not convey any doctrin.
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M*W: The true body of the "church" is humanity, not a religious institution(s).
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It's the middle area between hell and heaven. It is sort of a wasteland typified by exodus.
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M*W: Humanity itself (i.e. the "church") prevails against the "gates of hell." I asked you "what" the "gates of hell" were, not "where" they were as in their location.
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Arkward sentance. Intercede is not the right word either. What I mean is that the holy Spirit would forbid that kind of fallacy to enter into the Church.
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M*W: Then you're saying the One Spirit of God that dwells within humanity would forbid (i.e. prevent) any non-truths from entering into the body (of the church)? But this has already happened. Look at all the man-made religions out there! What happens to those human beings who believe in false doctrines?
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They were not apostles. They did not proclaim new doctrin. However, they were entrusted with preserving the Church. It's my belief that they had help from God.
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M*W: If they weren't "apostles" (i.e. teachers), then how did all the dogma get written into the various man-made religions?
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Jesus has a complely human nature and completly divine nature. These were united in the incarnation.
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M*W: As we are united in a mind-body-spirit incarnation of the mundane and divine.
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Were not a divine part of the godhead.
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M*W: Then what is the purpose of our being here?
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Are you claiming that when Dinos were around you existed?
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M*W: Well, I personally have never seen one that I can remember, but I believe in genetic memory. Otherwise, how would the dinosaur chasers (i.e archeologists) have acquired so much knowledge about them, since I've never heard of anyone else seeing them in their lifetime. I know we've got "footprints" and bones in museums, but I feel pretty sure that dinosaurs existed before humans did. In fact, we may have descended from them. We have a reptilian brain. Just because they seem like huge creatures to us today, doesn't mean that we weren't the Titans of the Earth when they lived.
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Since you do not seem to believe in heaven, where exactly did you exist?
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M*W: I never said that I don't believe in heaven. It's not a matter of where I exist. It's a matter where heaven exists. Heaven exists in the soul, not up there in the sky, just like hell is not below the ground. Heaven and hell are spiritual states within our very soul.
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The Septuagint means of 70 schollars or something like that. It's a Greek old testament text before the Talmud. It contains the books that are in the Catholic canon plus a few others. But the actual books in it varies. It's older than the Massoretic hebrew text, and although the Septuagint has some short fallings, there are supposed to be known corruptions within the Massoretic text. The Septuagint is what most of the new testament quotes from.
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M*W: My mistake. I was thinking of the Vulgate and called it the Septuigint.
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I think the position of duality is against certain protestant groups that see themselves have two natures: the flesh and the spirit. While the gospel given by Paul uses this metaphore, they are not really two separate natures, I think. I've heard other christians say they do not sin but their flesh nature sins.
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M*W: This is a convenient cop-out. Without the spirit, the flesh still be a one-celled animal.
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I don't think the 3rd one counts. Since you do not seem to believe in anyway to percieve this divine statement aside from these rules, there is no way to know that these rules are truthful or that these rules are corrected. Definition 2 is recursive. For the sake of argument, where was God when there was no humans?
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M*W: That's rhetorical. If God always existed, so did humans always exist, but they may have been in a primitive form or like I said above, as an amoeba. Further, I gave a very simplistic view of the requirements for being God. Certainly, our human/divine nature is more complex than that. To explain this further, I'll need to write a book on it, and I'm working on that right now.