Who kills more atheists?

[MayanArch]

Communists ARE Atheists

People proclaim Communists to be Athiests because it is part of Communist Law and state policy. In other words, Communists ARE atheists because Communists say so..........not because anyone else has ascribed this to them.

Furthermore, they are militant athiests who go about forwarding policy through violence. Communist governments around the world have killed 98,000,000 people................this is the NKVD's number.....not the Vaticans. IN case that number washes over you without meaning, let me put it into perspective: To kill 98 million people you would need to wipe out every human living between the Mississipi River and the Atlantic Coast of the United States.

These do not include deaths in wars. These are deaths of people who resisted mandatory collectivization. The numbers are also not made up of political enemies, unless you believe that there were 98 million rich industrialists hanging around. These were the very people Communism was supposed to protect: the common populus of these countries.

A lot of these were persecuted in order to stamp out the influence of religion in Communist countries. A lot of them were not. What is for certain is that atheism was, and is to this day State policy in Communist countries and that all of these governments saw the need to delete any notion that there was an authority above that of the State.

To say that some people in Communism happened to be atheists.....no different than some people in Capitalism happened to be athiest as well........is a complete misunderstanding of how central getting religion out of the way was for the survival of the Communist state. Or to put it more bluntly........it is a blantant lie and a complete miscaracterization of history for the purpose of defending atheists.

It is also completely consistent that a governmental body that asigns no value to a human being beyond that of a worker drone.........really, a beast of burden, a souless animal..........is also primed to commit the murder of 98 million of its own people without batting an eye. Religion in no way guarantees that humans will value the worth of another human.......but at the very least it doesnt devalue it to the stature of a mule.

 

[spidergoat]

People proclaim Communists to be Athiests because it is part of Communist Law and state policy. In other words, Communists ARE atheists because Communists say so..........not because anyone else has ascribed this to them.

That's what people say, but people aren't atheists just because the government says so. In Russia, people met in secret, and today 70% are Russian Orthodox. Those people didn't suddenly start believing when the USSR fell.

 

[MayanArch]

That's what people say, but people aren't atheists just because the government says so. In Russia, people met in secret, and today 70% are Russian Orthodox. Those people didn't suddenly start believing when the USSR fell.

Not arguing that fact. The post was in response to the notion/post that athiests dont kill as much as religious people. To the contrary, the numbers are against athiests as the Communists really racked up the count. You would have to add up all 6,000 years of religious wars to maybe.......and thats a big maybe.........come close to 98,000,000 murdered by Communism, in the name of Communism, and as an devout and militant athiest form of government. Communists got to those numbers in just 80 years........maybe not all in the name of athiesm........but definetly proclaiming it as State policy and as a political necessity for the survival of International Communism.

Not all religious people signed up for the slaughters conducted in the Inquisition either. The Spanish Empire ceased to exist....the Inquisition ended just as Soviet Communism came to an end..........and people went back to being religious or atheiests or agnostics.

What is of concearn here is the zealotry practiced by the devout religious or the militant atheiests. ..............call it the "motivated" by their beliefs. I wouldnt condemn the Russian people as a whole for the sins of the Communist State, nor would I do that to the Cubans or Chinese in general..................just as I would not condemn the followers fo Catholic faith for the Inquisition. It is the motivated zealots that are to blame.

 

[spidergoat]

Communism had alot of enemies, some real, some imagined. That's why they sent so many to prison. It wasn't because of atheism. Communism cannot be characterized as a "militant atheist form of government". Rejecting religion was only a part of it. Religious people killed in the name of religion. Atheists have rarely if ever killed in the name of atheism. There are specific instructions in some religions to kill in various cirmcumstances. Atheism has no such dogma.

 

[MayanArch]

Communism had alot of enemies, some real, some imagined. That's why they sent so many to prison. It wasn't because of atheism. Communism cannot be characterized as a "militant atheist form of government". Rejecting religion was only a part of it. Religious people killed in the name of religion. Atheists have rarely if ever killed in the name of atheism. There are specific instructions in some religions to kill in various cirmcumstances. Atheism has no such dogma.

If you kill someone in order to stamp out religion because you fear it competes with the supremacy of the state.......you are killing for atheism.

Kill someone to stop them from being religious.....They are still murdered in order to get religion out of the way. Thats killing for atheism, by a state which desires its entire population to be atheist.

What is the difference between killing to force atheism onto a populus, or killing to force God onto a populus. Same thing. Still murder. Both are acts of zealotry.

Furthermore, this repeated itself in all Communists countries without exception. That is pathalogical. Thats zealotry. Thats an undeniable pattern on the part of governments whom claim atheism as state policy.

 

[Syzygys]

Since through history believers committed most of the crimes, they kill more atheists...

Any other question?

 

[spidergoat]

Furthermore, nothing about Communism makes people kill for Communism. What happened in Russia had nothing to do with Communism. They were leaders that led with a religious fervor, accomplished by taking the place of the people's inherent religious awe of the previous Czars. Stalin did not implement Communism, he was a totalitarian ruler. They sent anyone away that threatened their hegemony. Nothing about atheism made him do that, in fact Stalin studied at the Orthodox Theological Seminary as a youth, he may not have been an atheist at all.

Under Stalin's insisting In 1939-11-11, Politburo of the Central Committee has admitted prosecutions of believers "inexpedient". In 1939-11-11 Stalin canceled Lenin's instruction from May, 1st, 1919 for N 13666-2 "About struggle against priests and religion" and gave orders to People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs (NKVD) to release from custody already arrested priests "if activity of these citizens didn't harm the Soviet authority".

Stalin "hated" religion so much, that in 1951-06-27 he gaved "Stalin's Prize" to English clergyman Hewlett Johnson. Various prizes under Soviet authority received and other priests.​

 

[spidergoat]

Communism and fascism do not follow from atheism, and neither do the atrocities committed in the name of commnunism and fascism. Atheism is just the gap left by the forced removal of religion for ideological and PR purposes.​

 

[MayanArch]

This is the science forum, right?

FACT: Communist regimes have had an athiest policy, and that they have forced it upon their people under penalty of death.

TESTING THE THEORY: If your people hide from the authorities to conduct religious rituals in secret for fear of facing a firing squad, then the State is killing with an athiest agenda.

Who cares if Stalin went to a religious school, so did Castro. Both had squads of stormtroopers that hunted down, incarcerated and murdered large portions of their people for the crime of practicing religion.

PROOF: None of this is refuted by the remaining KGB or NKVD or any others that took part. The Communists kept meticulous documents just like the Nazis. At the fall of the USSR it was ex-Communists who took upon themselves the task of gathering up the documents and tallying the figures.

Furthermore, the fact that Stalin didnt create or install COmmunism is useless to this conversation. Stalin was not alone in the killing spree. This repeated itself in EVERY SINGLE Communist country, and it repeated itself in the USSR before and after Stalin. Practicing religion has in all Communist countries been a punishable crime which often lead to a firing squad. That is murder in the name of atheism in its purest form.

Richard Dawkings uses 911 to demonstrate that zealots are running rampant killing people. He is right. Anyone that doesnt think that Islamists arent religious zealots who kill for their religions is truly lost.

However, Dawkings also fails to mention that Osama Bin Laden and his crew have many secular reasons that they list as their justification for their killings. Among these have to do with political relationships between Arab governments and the West, along with the management of trade policies, and other purely secular justifications. To state that the Islamists are not religious zealots because amongst their motivations are secular ones would be ridiculous. The same goes for the Spanish Empire at the time of the Inquisition. A lot of the people murdered were murdered so officials could appropriate their wealth, and hence greed was the reason for many of the murders in the Inquisition were secularly motivated.

HOWEVER, to state that either the Inquisition or 911 was a secularist phenomenon would be completely stupid.......................as it is to bring up small exceptions to the fact that Communism forced atheism on millions of people under penalty of death as proof that they somehow didn't.

It really doesnt matter at all what exceptions Stalin made to the rule. Stalin had his police force hunt down, incarcerate, and kill people for the crime of practicing religion. All Communist countries excercised this policy before, during and after Stalin.

 

[spidergoat]

He didn't do it because of atheism, though. He did it because religion was a threat to his totalitarian rule. That was a time of pseudo-religious uproar called revolution. The revolution could not be questioned, it was antagonistic to intellectualism and philosophical discussion. Nothing about atheism is like this. Atheism is qualitatively different to any ideology, since it is just the name religious people give to one premise, that there is no God (and sometimes, nothing supernatural exists). Religions are full of specific (and sometimes contradictory) instructions to it's believers. Atheism is not intrinsically anti-religion. Islam is, however, specifically antagonistic to non-Mulim people. Christianity is also antagonistic to non-christian people.

 

[MayanArch]

He didn't do it because of atheism, though. He did it because religion was a threat to his totalitarian rule. That was a time of pseudo-religious uproar called revolution. The revolution could not be questioned, it was antagonistic to intellectualism and philosophical discussion. Nothing about atheism is like this. Atheism is qualitatively different to any ideology, since it is just the name religious people give to one premise, that there is no God (and sometimes, nothing supernatural exists). Religions are full of specific (and sometimes contradictory) instructions to it's believers. Atheism is not intrinsically anti-religion. Islam is, however, specifically antagonistic to non-Mulim people. Christianity is also antagonistic to non-christian people.

The mistake you are making is attributing this to a single person........or a single country for that matter. IT WAS POLICY....and it was State policy that endured many changes of authority throughout EVERY Communist country.

To try to ascribe Stalin's personal motivations to save a handful of priests as proof that Communism in general wasnt forcing atheism under penalty of death is nuts.

Look, Hitler made it a standing order that the Jewish doctor that treated his mother's cancer could never be touched. This doctor was personally protected by Hitler himself. To use that small fact to try to persuade that Hitler didnt hate Jews would be a loosing argument..........as is using some scant facts about Stalin as to divorce Communism for is GLOBAL and UNIVERSAL atheist policy.

This is all very simple: kill in order to force people to be atheist.......and you are killing in the name of atheism.

 

[spidergoat]

One particular brand of Communism opressed theists, that much is true. I would suggest that any ideology if not allowed to be questioned, is dangerous. Atheism isn't based on faith or ideology but reason and evidence. By itself, it is inherently tolerant.

 

[Arsalan]

The simple fact of the matter is that communists killed loads of people. Communists were for the vast majority Atheists. In the last century in 2 countries alone we have Atheist communists kill over 60 million people. Then we have had the likes of Friedman concoct an economic theory which has started wars in almost all of South America and which still keeps killing people worldwide. Then we had the people who made the bombs used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Saying that Atheists or Communists didnt kill people because of their religion is an incredible fallacy as Atheists have no religion. That criteria should not apply either because we are talking about the number of people killed. If a theist country kills people or starts war, that is atuomatically attributed to religion. So, lets level the playing field. Every person killed by Atheists or a country led by Atheists will be counted as murder in the name of Atheism. Its only fair. Or are people going to change the way they talk about religion and war? Open their minds to see that religion does not play a major role in starting wars, rather it is all political?

 

[spidergoat]

Well, you are mistaken there. No one counts WWII as a religious war, even if many of the participants were religious. We don't count Jeffrey Dahmer's victims as the product of religious violence just because he happened to be religious.

 

[Arsalan]

Youd be surprised at the number of people ive met that do blame it on religion and its not just that. Its the whole mindset that religion is responsible for the vast majority if not all the problems in the world. As if everything else is working out pico-bello...

 

[iceaura]

If you kill someone in order to stamp out religion because you fear it competes with the supremacy of the state.......you are killing for atheism.

No, you are killing for the state, and killing its enemies - adherents of religion, in this case, not theists.

You are confusing religion with theism, and totalitarian state treatment of rival organizations with state interest in personal worldviews.

This, for example, has nothing to do with State objections to compassion, etc, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong It has to do with one organization's objections to the rise in influence of a rival, competitive organization.

Saying that Atheists or Communists didnt kill people because of their religion is an incredible fallacy as Atheists have no religion.

There are atheistic religions, and religious atheists. They exist. They are obvious. That is so even if you absolutely deny that Soviet "Communism" was a religion, despite all appearances.

Why do you keep saying things like that ?

The simple fact of the matter is that communists killed loads of people. Communists were for the vast majority Atheists. In the last century in 2 countries alone we have Atheist communists kill over 60 million people. Then we have had the likes of Friedman concoct an economic theory which has started wars in almost all of South America and which still keeps killing people worldwide. Then we had the people who made the bombs used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Soviet people who did the killing were mostly theists. The Nazi people who did the killing were mostly theists. The people doing the killing in South America were mostly theists, and so are most of the people who follow Milton Friedman's economic theories. The people who dropped the Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly theists.

So were the people they killed.

You are talking as if Abrahamic monotheism is the only form of religion, and the Abrahamic God the only kind of deity, that there is.

You are also absolving theists of any responsibility for their murderous, evil behavior if an atheist or atheistic theory is anywhere involved in any way in their evil deeds. That is silly. Theists are responsible for their behaviors as anyone else is - if theists kill people, that is not atheism killing people.

Open their minds to see that religion does not play a major role in starting wars, rather it is all political?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Politicians find religion very useful in the motivating and launching of wars, religions find political power very useful and ready to hand in their congregations of believers. That is a serious problem with religion in general, theistic ones especially, and Abrahamic monotheisms in particular.

 

[audible]

here we go again.

Mayanarch and Arsalan, I've posted this up numerous times, isn't it about time. you lot understood it.

People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

this is a common mistake made by theists, typically those of the fundy type, they believe atheism is essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, atheism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. How stupid!

the first thing we should note is there is an automatic and almost unconscious assumption made by these theists that their religion is somehow equivalent with captialism.

Communism is not, however, inherently atheistic. It is possible to have communistic or socialistic views while being a theist and it isn't at all wrong to be an atheist while staunchly defending capitalism, which is a combination often found among objectivists and libertarians.
their existence alone demonstrates, that atheism and communism are not the same thing.

is christianity opposed to communism? No, the opposite, actually. There is nothing in the gospels which even so much as suggests a divine preference for captialism, now is there.

quite a bit of what Jesus said supports many of the tenets of socialism and communism. http://latter-rain.com/general/commu.htm
He specifically said that that people should give all they could to the poor and that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

basic communism states to hold all property in common rather than privately, is practiced by numerous Christian communities now and throughout history. references to it can be found in Acts:

Acts 4:33-35 "With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. "
The similarity to Marx's principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" should be obvious.

and here again in Acts:

Acts 5:1-11 "But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; with his wife’s knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. "Ananias," Peter asked, "why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!" Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

The young men came and wrapped up his body, then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you and your husband sold the land for such and such a price." And she said, "Yes, that was the price." Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things."

their deaths served as an example to all the others of what would happen if they, too, held back profits for themselves instead of giving everything to the community.
so we can see that this was the first christian commune(ist) society.

so please lets get away from this silly reference to atheism and communism being the same, the bible is basically a communist manifesto.

 

[MayanArch]

here we go again.

Mayanarch and Arsalan, I've posted this up numerous times, isn't it about time. you lot understood it.

OK, this is a science forum. Lets do this based on facts, not propaganda or common misconceptions:

1.) Communism is athiest because Communist countries, without exception are atheist by state policy and state decree. Communists are atheist BY LAW. The practice of religion is a crime often punishable by death, incarceration, or some other form of capital punishment. THis has been the case in one way or another in all communist states around the world throughout its 100 year history. Communists arent considered to be atheist by rummor. They are considered to be atheists because Communist governments says so. The fact that some people who would believe in communism or socialism may be atheist, or agnostic, or theist really doesnt make a difference. It is state policy despite of what individual opinions may be.

LAWS ARE FACTS. INTERPRETATIONS ARE OPINION.

2.) Hitler made constant theistic references in his speeches. National Socialism had a distinct theistic view, warped as it may have been, had Christian connotations in exclusion of the Jewish and other faiths. Whatever propaganda you are basing yourself on has no relevance. You have to base it on the facts. Hitler's word was law in the haphazard form of government that the National Socialists practiced. Whatever he wished was made into law. There were theistic connotations to his every speech, aside from the regular Jew hating stuff....there was "in the face of the lord", or "decreed by the creator" type of language constantly used.

I am sorry but your argument is poorly constructed. Neither theism or atheism is inherently ANY kind of government.....it is a form of personal belief. However, governments do adopt either theistic or atheistic policies......and have in fact killed in the name of both.

Christianity is not inherently ANY type of government. This notion that Christianity is inherently socialist is propaganda......again....not fact. Furthermore, it is propaganda circulated in NON-Communist countries by either hippies in the US or liberals in free Europe. This was not, and is not the case in the USSR, China, Cuba, or North Korea. It is a convinient 60's interpretation of communism....not Christianity. There is NOTHING in Christianity about either the redistribution of wealth or the banning of private property.....which are the two most fundamental views of Communism. In fact, Christ pretty much set the tone for the fact that Christianity had nothing to do with commerce or government when he said "Give onto Cesar...."

The founding fathers of the United States were pretty smart men. They came up with a form of government based on their CHristian values, and it had nothing of socialism in it. Christianity is in no way inherently any type of government.............However, it has been adopted by almost all types of government.

In the same way, atheist beliefs are an individual choice. This has nothing to do with how societies are assembled. It is an individual choice that has no inherent reference to law or government. However, just like in CHristianity........many governments have adopted it..........and yes, killed to enforce it.

Killing to force someone to be atheist is no different than if you kill someone to force God on them.

 

[spidergoat]

China tolerates most mainstream religions, so it is possible for an ostensibly communist country to have religious citizens that aren't considered criminals. The USSR was caught up in a kind of revolutionary fever. Besides, most of their prisoners were not in jail for the crime of having a religion. They did use that as an excuse to dispatch people they considered threatening, but they also used any number of trumped up charges.

 

[iceaura]

1.) Communism is athiest because Communist countries, without exception are atheist by state policy and state decree. Communists are atheist BY LAW. The practice of religion is a crime often punishable by death, incarceration, or some other form of capital punishment.

Again the confusion of organized religion and theism.

You are also denying the religious aspects of Soviet and Chinese and Korean "Communism" (called "Maoism", for example, in China). (North Korea, far from being atheist by decree, has installed a former official as a deity. Theistic religion is a time honored enabler of totalitarian states.)

Communists arent considered to be atheist by rummor. They are considered to be atheists because Communist governments says so.

And Saudis are considered heterosexual because their government says so ?

The Soviets beat down religious organizations, also trade unions, farmers cooperatives, fraternal lodges, and the like. Any organization that protected the individual from the State.

Btw: only a small minority of Soviet citizens were officially Communist. There were official procedures involved, including thorough grounding and competence in the teachings of the Prophets, and the taking of oaths, and the demonstration of proper character through good deeds and sincere discipline. I do not know if the rites of induction included a full immersion in sanctified water or not.

Killing to force someone to be atheist is no different than if you kill someone to force God on them.

It is very rare, however.