No that's not what I said. I said it simply and clearly.
Who do you think Jesus was?
- Thread starter dybyib
- Start date
No that's not what I said. I said it simply and clearly.
i have experienced jesus, and that's the only reason i believe. i have no reason to think that's not the same reason why a lot of other people over the past 2000 yrs have believed also.
yes, claims that he was born on this earth, lived on this earth, died of crucifixion, and was seen on earth resurrected.
:shrug:
i don't know what you're talking about...we said the same thing.
Just believe Lori and you will be saved if not you will suffer eternal torment at my hands.
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2668171&postcount=78
Proof? as they say.
Not necessary, as they say: it is merely my assertion you object to? Why?
lame.
if jesus didn't exist then why were the gospels written saying he did, by whom, and what was their motive? a death wish? if it's all a hoax, why isn't it more believable?
Gday,
Hoax?
NO-ONE said it was a hoax!
I didn't claim a hoax, nor did anyone else.
It's amazing how people say that - as if the ONLY possiblities are :
* truth
* hoax
It's started as a MYTHICAL story, then later people BELIEVED it - no hoax, no conspiracy, no lies.
First Paul wrote about spiritual being,
then years and years later Mark wrote a greate piece of spiritual literature,
then others copied Mark over the years...
LATER still, some people came to BELEIVE it.
It's not a hoax,
but it's not history either.
K.
Hoax?
NO-ONE said it was a hoax!
I didn't claim a hoax, nor did anyone else.
It's amazing how people say that - as if the ONLY possiblities are :
* truth
* hoax
It's started as a MYTHICAL story, then later people BELIEVED it - no hoax, no conspiracy, no lies.
First Paul wrote about spiritual being,
then years and years later Mark wrote a greate piece of spiritual literature,
then others copied Mark over the years...
LATER still, some people came to BELEIVE it.
It's not a hoax,
but it's not history either.
K.
Gday,
Others have experienced Satan, or Krishna, or Buddha, or Bacchus...
Many myths are full of claims.
But NO-ONE ever met Jesus, nor mary or Joseph or Lazarus, or Nicodemus, etc. etc.
K.
Others have experienced Satan, or Krishna, or Buddha, or Bacchus...
Many myths are full of claims.
But NO-ONE ever met Jesus, nor mary or Joseph or Lazarus, or Nicodemus, etc. etc.
K.
Gday,
Why were the books of the OT written?
Why were the Greek myths written ?
Why were the Hindu scriptures written?
Why were the Egyptian myths written?
Why did L.Ron Hubbard write Scientology?
Because people write religious myths and stories.
We already know that.
K.
Why were the books of the OT written?
Why were the Greek myths written ?
Why were the Hindu scriptures written?
Why were the Egyptian myths written?
Why did L.Ron Hubbard write Scientology?
Because people write religious myths and stories.
We already know that.
K.
Gday again,
Paul and other Christian writers clearly indicate that their source for Jesus' story is from revelation, and from scripture :
Firstly, some general comments from the early NT -
2 Cor 1:22 NEB
"It is all God's doing, God has set his seal on us by sending the Spirit".
1 Cor. 2:13 NEB
"We speak of these gifts of God in words found for us not by our human wisdom but by the spirit"
1 Cor. 14:36-37
"Did the word of God originate with you? Are you the only people to whom it came? If anyone claims to be inspired or a prophet, let him recognize that that I write has the Lord's authority"
2 Cor. 5:5
"God has shaped us for life immortal, and as a guarantee of this he has sent the Spirit"
1 Peter 1:12 :
"Preachers brought you the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven."
The source of their gospel, their teaching, is the Spirit - is internal personal revelation.
More specifially, how did Paul know about Jesus -
Gal. 1:16
"God chose to reveal his Son in me, in order that I might preach him among the gentiles"
Jesus was revealed to Paul, IN Paul, by revelation.
Not from any historical tradition.
Rom. 16:25-6
Paul's Gospel
"about Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept in silence for long ages but now revealed, and made known through prophetic writings".
Until NOW it was secret, but Paul now has knowledge about Jesus - derived from his revelation about what the scriptures mean.
Not from any historical tradition.
Eph 3:5
"The mystery about Christ which in former generations was not made known to the human race, is now revealed to dedicated apostles and prophets through the Spirit."
Knowledge about Jesus Christ is only NOW known by revelation.
Not from any historical tradition.
Gal. 1:11-12
"For I neither received (paralambanoo) [my Gospel about Jesus Christ] from man, nor was I taught it, but [I recieved it] through a revelation of Jesus Christ"
He received his gospel about Jesus from personal revelation - specifically saying that he did NOT learn it, and got it from NO MAN.
Not from any historical tradition.
(Note: Paul uses 'paralambano' to refer to receiving revelation.)
1 Cor. 15:3-4
"For I delivered to you ... what I also received (paralambano), that Christ died for our sins, as learned from the scriptures, and that he was buried; and that he was raised on the third day, as learned from the scriptures"
(Translating "kata tas graphas" to "as learned from the scriptures".)
Paul has received this knowledge about Jesus dieing and rising again from HIS personal REVELATION about what the scriptures really mean, probably referring to Isaiah 53, Hosea 6:2, Ps. 22:16, Zech. 12:10 and Ps. 2.
Not from any historical tradition.
1 Cor. 11:23-26
"For I received (paralambano) from the Lord that which I passed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was delivered up, took bread, and when he had given thanks, broke it and said: 'This is my body..."
Paul's received this knowledge about Jesus' Last Supper by personal revelation.
Not from any historical tradition.
Hebrews
1:2 "In this final age God has spoken to us through his Son" in the present.
But all quotes of the Son are from scripture, not a single Gospel saying - e.g. Ps. 2:12 "I will proclaim thy name to my brothers", not Mark 3:35 as example of being brothers.
Quotes of OT scripture are put in Jesus' mouth with "he says...", in the present tense - e.g. 10:5-7 Christ speaks about himself by quoting Ps. 40:5-8.
5:7 derived from Ps. 116:1 and Ps. 22:24.
Scripture is consistently the source for Jesus' words and actions to this writer.
Rev.
Opens with the "revelation of Jesus Christ" - God reveals it to Jesus, who passes it to an angel who tells John.
Filled with revelation about Jesus.
1:7 is derived from Zech. 12:10
Closes with quote from Habakkuk in the mouth of Jesus.
The Suffering and Vindication of the Innocent Righteous One
Mark's passion of Jesus is derived from the OT - Gen. 39-41, Est. 3, Tobit 1:18-22, Susanna, Dan. 3 and 6, Macc. 3, 2 Macc. 7, Wis. Sol. 2-5.
1 Clement
16:15-16 describing Jesus' suffering - quoting Ps. 22 and Isaiah 53, no Gospel stories.
Ch. 22 - Ps. 34 is quoted as a direct summons from Jesus.
Scripture is a source for Jesus' actions for this writer too.
Polycarp's epistle
8:1 talking of the events around Jesus - he quotes from Isaiah 53.
2:3a speaks of "the Lord in his teaching", then quotes from 1 Clement 13.
No clear knowledge of Jesus stories, except from scriptures.
Barnabas
Talks about Jesus' passion 5:2, 5:12, 13 ; but his sources are scripture - Isaiah 50 and 53 and Psalms 22 and 119.
Tertullian,
On the Flesh of Christ, Ch. 9
"As the case stood, however, it was actually the ordinary condition of His terrene flesh which made all things else about Him wonderful, as when they said, "Whence hath this man this wisdom and these mighty works?" Thus spake even they who despised His outward form. His body did not reach even to human beauty, to say nothing of heavenly glory. Had the prophets given us no information whatever concerning His ignoble appearance, His very sufferings and the very contumely He endured bespeak it all. "
That is -
even if the prophets [i.e. scriptures] had not told us he was physically ugly, we could still tell that was so from his sufferings.
Tertullian's source for Jesus' appearance is the scriptures (the prophets.)
Again in Against Marcion 3, 17 :
Let us compare with Scripture the rest of His dispensation. Whatever that poor despised body may be, because it was an object of touch and sight, it shall be my Christ, be He inglorious, be He ignoble, be He dishonoured; for such was it announced that He should be, both in bodily condition and aspect. Isaiah comes to our help again:
"We have announced (His way) before Him," says he; "He is like a servant, like a root in a dry ground; He hath no form nor comeliness; we saw Him, and He had neither form nor beauty; but His form was despised, marred above all men." Similarly the Father addressed the Son just before: "Inasmuch as many will be astonished at Thee, so also will Thy beauty be without glory from men,"
Isaiah is the source of his details about Jesus.
Origen vs Celsus.
They argue about the characteristics of Jesus - as derived from Isaiah and Psalm 45 (contra Celsum VI, 75)
In summary - many Christians make it clear that their source for Jesus' story is SCRIPTURE and/or personal revelation - not from any historical tradition from anyone who ever met Jesus
Kapyong
(Thanks to Earl Doherty for much of this list.)
Paul and other Christian writers clearly indicate that their source for Jesus' story is from revelation, and from scripture :
Firstly, some general comments from the early NT -
2 Cor 1:22 NEB
"It is all God's doing, God has set his seal on us by sending the Spirit".
1 Cor. 2:13 NEB
"We speak of these gifts of God in words found for us not by our human wisdom but by the spirit"
1 Cor. 14:36-37
"Did the word of God originate with you? Are you the only people to whom it came? If anyone claims to be inspired or a prophet, let him recognize that that I write has the Lord's authority"
2 Cor. 5:5
"God has shaped us for life immortal, and as a guarantee of this he has sent the Spirit"
1 Peter 1:12 :
"Preachers brought you the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven."
The source of their gospel, their teaching, is the Spirit - is internal personal revelation.
More specifially, how did Paul know about Jesus -
Gal. 1:16
"God chose to reveal his Son in me, in order that I might preach him among the gentiles"
Jesus was revealed to Paul, IN Paul, by revelation.
Not from any historical tradition.
Rom. 16:25-6
Paul's Gospel
"about Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept in silence for long ages but now revealed, and made known through prophetic writings".
Until NOW it was secret, but Paul now has knowledge about Jesus - derived from his revelation about what the scriptures mean.
Not from any historical tradition.
Eph 3:5
"The mystery about Christ which in former generations was not made known to the human race, is now revealed to dedicated apostles and prophets through the Spirit."
Knowledge about Jesus Christ is only NOW known by revelation.
Not from any historical tradition.
Gal. 1:11-12
"For I neither received (paralambanoo) [my Gospel about Jesus Christ] from man, nor was I taught it, but [I recieved it] through a revelation of Jesus Christ"
He received his gospel about Jesus from personal revelation - specifically saying that he did NOT learn it, and got it from NO MAN.
Not from any historical tradition.
(Note: Paul uses 'paralambano' to refer to receiving revelation.)
1 Cor. 15:3-4
"For I delivered to you ... what I also received (paralambano), that Christ died for our sins, as learned from the scriptures, and that he was buried; and that he was raised on the third day, as learned from the scriptures"
(Translating "kata tas graphas" to "as learned from the scriptures".)
Paul has received this knowledge about Jesus dieing and rising again from HIS personal REVELATION about what the scriptures really mean, probably referring to Isaiah 53, Hosea 6:2, Ps. 22:16, Zech. 12:10 and Ps. 2.
Not from any historical tradition.
1 Cor. 11:23-26
"For I received (paralambano) from the Lord that which I passed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was delivered up, took bread, and when he had given thanks, broke it and said: 'This is my body..."
Paul's received this knowledge about Jesus' Last Supper by personal revelation.
Not from any historical tradition.
Hebrews
1:2 "In this final age God has spoken to us through his Son" in the present.
But all quotes of the Son are from scripture, not a single Gospel saying - e.g. Ps. 2:12 "I will proclaim thy name to my brothers", not Mark 3:35 as example of being brothers.
Quotes of OT scripture are put in Jesus' mouth with "he says...", in the present tense - e.g. 10:5-7 Christ speaks about himself by quoting Ps. 40:5-8.
5:7 derived from Ps. 116:1 and Ps. 22:24.
Scripture is consistently the source for Jesus' words and actions to this writer.
Rev.
Opens with the "revelation of Jesus Christ" - God reveals it to Jesus, who passes it to an angel who tells John.
Filled with revelation about Jesus.
1:7 is derived from Zech. 12:10
Closes with quote from Habakkuk in the mouth of Jesus.
The Suffering and Vindication of the Innocent Righteous One
Mark's passion of Jesus is derived from the OT - Gen. 39-41, Est. 3, Tobit 1:18-22, Susanna, Dan. 3 and 6, Macc. 3, 2 Macc. 7, Wis. Sol. 2-5.
1 Clement
16:15-16 describing Jesus' suffering - quoting Ps. 22 and Isaiah 53, no Gospel stories.
Ch. 22 - Ps. 34 is quoted as a direct summons from Jesus.
Scripture is a source for Jesus' actions for this writer too.
Polycarp's epistle
8:1 talking of the events around Jesus - he quotes from Isaiah 53.
2:3a speaks of "the Lord in his teaching", then quotes from 1 Clement 13.
No clear knowledge of Jesus stories, except from scriptures.
Barnabas
Talks about Jesus' passion 5:2, 5:12, 13 ; but his sources are scripture - Isaiah 50 and 53 and Psalms 22 and 119.
Tertullian,
On the Flesh of Christ, Ch. 9
"As the case stood, however, it was actually the ordinary condition of His terrene flesh which made all things else about Him wonderful, as when they said, "Whence hath this man this wisdom and these mighty works?" Thus spake even they who despised His outward form. His body did not reach even to human beauty, to say nothing of heavenly glory. Had the prophets given us no information whatever concerning His ignoble appearance, His very sufferings and the very contumely He endured bespeak it all. "
That is -
even if the prophets [i.e. scriptures] had not told us he was physically ugly, we could still tell that was so from his sufferings.
Tertullian's source for Jesus' appearance is the scriptures (the prophets.)
Again in Against Marcion 3, 17 :
Let us compare with Scripture the rest of His dispensation. Whatever that poor despised body may be, because it was an object of touch and sight, it shall be my Christ, be He inglorious, be He ignoble, be He dishonoured; for such was it announced that He should be, both in bodily condition and aspect. Isaiah comes to our help again:
"We have announced (His way) before Him," says he; "He is like a servant, like a root in a dry ground; He hath no form nor comeliness; we saw Him, and He had neither form nor beauty; but His form was despised, marred above all men." Similarly the Father addressed the Son just before: "Inasmuch as many will be astonished at Thee, so also will Thy beauty be without glory from men,"
Isaiah is the source of his details about Jesus.
Origen vs Celsus.
They argue about the characteristics of Jesus - as derived from Isaiah and Psalm 45 (contra Celsum VI, 75)
In summary - many Christians make it clear that their source for Jesus' story is SCRIPTURE and/or personal revelation - not from any historical tradition from anyone who ever met Jesus
Kapyong
(Thanks to Earl Doherty for much of this list.)
Apology accepted.
The only one bleating is you my friend.
You cannot prove when Christians began celebrating Christmas. But we know that it was practiced in 354 A.D. because there is a historical reference to the practice. Reason would dictate that the 354 A.D. was not the first year Christmas was celebrated. Constantine's death occured in 337 A.D. And we do know that Constantine was a high priest and devotee of Sol Invictus as were many members of the Roman Army. And we do know that Sol Invictus has Celebrated the birth of the Sun God on December 25th...amazing coincidence don't you think?
When confronted with fact and reason you do the same things my Tea Party friends do, set up a strawman.
No one (yourself excepted) that Constantine was a space alien. Frankly, I could care less. It is not germaine to the subject at hand.
No the evidence does not show that I am wrong. Did anyone document everything you did yesterday? I suspect not. Does that mean that yesterday did not happen? Of course not.
We use fact as we find it. And we use reason to make reasoned judgements to place context around fact, so that facts can become meaningful.
Well it is obvious by your answer that you don't know it. Because you are wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronography_of_354
The reference is the Chronography of 354 in which it lists both Christmas and the Sol Invictus celebration on December 25. Further, the existence of the Sol Invictus cult preceed 354 A.D. by more than a century. And is likely the morphing of other cults.
Bottom line, December 25th has been celebrated by pagans for a very long time before Christians started using the date to celebrate the birth of Christ. Prior to Constantine, there were many different dates used to celebrate the birth of Christ.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas
If I were wrong I would admit it. I suggest you read, "Constantine's Sword" written by James Carroll a former Catholic priest. Now the book is in excess of 400 pages and I am not going to take the time to go through it and list page numbers for your edification. If you care enough, which I doubt, you can read it.
http://www.jamescarroll.net/JAMESCARROLL.NET/Welcome.html
Quotes of thunder!
Jesus, J-Props as I liked to have called him. was 46 feet tall and strangled each and every dinosaur himself. Jesus fucked lots too, he fucked and he fucked until every thing was impregnated with the spice of life, till he was in fact the transglactic sperm donor of suicide we read about today in the bible.
followers of J-Props included Chuck, Steve, Paul, Jon, Ringo, and Mellisa Ethridge. His followers rarly faltured, besides one insident with Mellisa not being able to handle Jesus Man God Cock. The group regularly engaged in harmful orgies due to there intoxicating life style and practices as heavens gate baptists previous to becoming "J-Hoes" as Jesus would have liked to call them.
Roman Times life named him Man of the year every year till he died of a drug over dose in Afghanistan. he was also inducted into the hockey, rock and roll, and comedy halls of fame. Spreading Legs and words Jesus today still incites people to fuck with out condoms, get drunk on Sundays, Stone people we don't want to understand... and fuck young def boys (Mute ones next time eh Vatican?)
No, I think after finishing the bible when I was like ten, It's all a joke. Not the bible, many Christians still trying to finish the thing, quoting every bit of it out of context as if they watched god write it him self, that's the joke.
god didn't make Jesus we did (Well not fucking me) you still make him. Take a Sunday off, the worlds not going to fall apart if you don't get your creepy bed time stories read to you.
Jesus, J-Props as I liked to have called him. was 46 feet tall and strangled each and every dinosaur himself. Jesus fucked lots too, he fucked and he fucked until every thing was impregnated with the spice of life, till he was in fact the transglactic sperm donor of suicide we read about today in the bible.
followers of J-Props included Chuck, Steve, Paul, Jon, Ringo, and Mellisa Ethridge. His followers rarly faltured, besides one insident with Mellisa not being able to handle Jesus Man God Cock. The group regularly engaged in harmful orgies due to there intoxicating life style and practices as heavens gate baptists previous to becoming "J-Hoes" as Jesus would have liked to call them.
Roman Times life named him Man of the year every year till he died of a drug over dose in Afghanistan. he was also inducted into the hockey, rock and roll, and comedy halls of fame. Spreading Legs and words Jesus today still incites people to fuck with out condoms, get drunk on Sundays, Stone people we don't want to understand... and fuck young def boys (Mute ones next time eh Vatican?)
No, I think after finishing the bible when I was like ten, It's all a joke. Not the bible, many Christians still trying to finish the thing, quoting every bit of it out of context as if they watched god write it him self, that's the joke.
god didn't make Jesus we did (Well not fucking me) you still make him. Take a Sunday off, the worlds not going to fall apart if you don't get your creepy bed time stories read to you.
well 6 pages and no answer then.
Only those who open their eyes will see.
profound. perhaps someone will write a myth about you one day.
That's my plan.
that was your 666'th post. creepy.
I see, it makes sense.