Who do you believe Paul or Jesus?

§outh§tar said:
There was no confusion on my part.

We are not saved by the crucifixion, but by the resurrection.

I can't believe you still don't understand this, in YOUR very own quote, you showed that Jesus had to return to the Father. This means that the RESURRECTION is what "saved" us.

This is the 1st chapter of Romans:

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
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And how does "returning to his Father" save you? Where did you get this information?
Does Jesus say that when he(Jesus) is resurrected then you will be saved?
 
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786 said:
And how does "returning to his Father" save you? Where did you get this information?
Does Jesus say that when he(Jesus) is resurrected then you will be saved?
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I have a feeling you are just reading my replies just to find things to argue about. I already explained this. Just do a search on the first page for "mercyseat".
 
Originally Posted by §outh§tar
Ok, now you are contradicting yourself.

"You have to believe in his words to be saved" and then you say you will not only be judged by faith...

Well let me lay it out for you:

Faith establishes righteousness. Abraham's righteousness was accounted for by faith. Hence the test of him killing his son on the mountain. ”



I am not contradicting myself. Where does Jesus say forget the law, Only have faith.

Jesus in his words never claimed only have faith, and forget the work.

So if you were to be saved by believing in his word. Thus meaning you have to follow the commandments, because that was his word.

I don't get the mercyseat part, anyway are you saying that God sacrifised his Son to save you?
 
786 said:
I am not contradicting myself. Where does Jesus say forget the law, Only have faith.

Jesus in his words never claimed only have faith, and forget the work.

So if you were to be saved by believing in his word. Thus meaning you have to follow the commandments, because that was his word.
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Sigh..

Tell me, are the commandments not reiterated in the New Testament?

If this does not illuminate it for you, I don't know what will:


Mark 12:28-34 28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving F58 that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?" 29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' F59 This is the first commandment. F60 31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' F61 There is no other commandment greater than these." 32 So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, F62 and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."

OF COURSE He is not abolishing the Law, He is ESTABLISHING it. Exactly this: on the principle of love. If you TRULY love your neighbor, of course you would not murder him, or lust after his possessions or fornicate with his wife and so on..

BUT

You must not take this WITHOUT the first, which he listed as an effort with "all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength". Certainly, if this was the case, you would have faith, would you not? And thus is the purpose of faith, as I stated earlier, to establish righteousness even according to Abraham.
 
I agree with this. But I am not saying Jesus is trying to abolish the law. I am saying that Paul is. Here is a verse where Paul say:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
 
786 said:
I agree with this. But I am not saying Jesus is trying to abolish the law. I am saying that Paul is. Here is a verse where Paul say:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
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Paul was NOT trying to abolish the law.

Let me try to explain it.

Peter was to the circumcised, as Paul was to the uncircumcised.

Not obviously, the uncircumcised were not granted the oracles of God, do you agree?

(For example: The People in South Africa did not have the law of Moses to abide by)

THEREFORE, the Law CAN NOT possibly be applied to them in such circumstances for judgement. BUT Paul SPECIFICALLY said the Law still applied to the Jews, which is where your misunderstanding begins. Because Paul was not writing to Jews, but to the uncircumcised, his gospel was deemed heresy.

If Paul was writing to the Jews, or aiming a portion of his letter at Jews, he would have cited the Law as the basis for their judgement. You see, logically, people who did not have the law could not be judged by the law.

I hope you understand thus far, before I continue.
 
Well, because the Native Americans and people living in Brazil and who knows where were not given the law of Moses, it is only logical that there is some other means of judging them other than the law of Moses.

This is called their conscience.

AND consequently, I hope you can see that (strictly speaking) NO one who has never heard the gospels has lived without sinning.
Just because they didn't have the Law of Moses did not mean they did not have a conscience, which made them guilty whenever their actions accused them.

You understand so far?

Because of this, it would mean that anyone who did not have the Law is automatically condemned to Hell because there is no way on earth they can be perfect all their lives. As a sidepoint, Paul tried to say that even with the Law, there is still no way every single law (going beyond the ten commandments) can be kept strictly. Therefore both people who have the law and people who don't have the law will inevitably sin.

Understand so far?
 
Yes, I understand. But that is why God is forgiving. Even if you sin he forgives you when you are sincere when asking God.
 
Continue explaining. Please answer this question though. Do you believe that God sacrificed his Son for your sins?
 
786 said:
Yes, I understand. But that is why God is forgiving. Even if you sin he forgives you when you are sincere when asking God.
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Yes, that is why it is called faith and not law. If it was by law alone then you have broken the law and there's no turning back because you have no faith in redemption. But if there is faith, then you are given a new chance in the New Covenant.

We are no longer bound to the laws of Moses, per se. That is not however to say we don't use it anymore. All of the law is embodied in the New Testament after all the New Testament doesn't tell you you are free to murder, or lust after others, or steal, or bow to mere idols.

Again, you must remember that Peter and John wrote about the same things too, concerning faith, therefore it couldn't have been a fabrication of Paul's. Especially since they weren't even at the same place, not to mention Christianity had started long before Paul became a Christian.
 
786 said:
Continue explaining. Please answer this question though. Do you believe that God sacrificed his Son for your sins?
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God set forth Christ Jesus as a propitiation by His blood through faith. So it's a sort of yes and no answer.. if I fail to believe then I still cling to my sins, therefore rejecting but not invalidating the finished work of Jesus.
 
§outh§tar said:
Yes, that is why it is called faith and not law. If it was by law alone then you have broken the law and there's no turning back because you have no faith in redemption. But if there is faith, then you are given a new chance in the New Covenant.

We are no longer bound to the laws of Moses, per se. That is not however to say we don't use it anymore. All of the law is embodied in the New Testament after all the New Testament doesn't tell you you are free to murder, or lust after others, or steal, or bow to mere idols.

Again, you must remember that Peter and John wrote about the same things too, concerning faith, therefore it couldn't have been a fabrication of Paul's. Especially since they weren't even at the same place, not to mention Christianity had started long before Paul became a Christian.
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Well, I never said law alone. There is a verse in the Bible which says something like that one is dead without the other. So law is dead without faith, and faith is dead with law. So this makes it 2 different things rather than one. I shall provide you the verse, hopefully. So according to that verse you are still required to follow the law.
 
786 said:
Well, I never said law alone. There is a verse in the Bible which says something like that one is dead without the other. So law is dead without faith, and faith is dead with law. So this makes it 2 different things rather than one. I shall provide you the verse, hopefully. So according to that verse you are still required to follow the law.
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Well provide me with that verse and we shall look at it in context. The only verse I can think of says Faith is dead without works..
 
Why didn't Jesus himself say that believe I will be crucified for you sins, with which you shall all be saved?
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Matthew 20
17 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, 18"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, 19and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again."

Jesus knew He was going to be crucified. If his crucifiction was not central to His Misson on earth why would he go through it?


786 you keep on saying that Paul said that the commandments are done away with. You are repeating the same slanderious accusation that has been repeated many times down throughout History they even said it in Pauls time.

Paul:
Romans 3:8
And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?--as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

Peter:
2 Peter 3
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

All praise the Ancient of Days
 
I am not scared. SouthStar has already proved the commandments, I guess you weren't reading the posts.

Could you please answer my "Did Jesus fulfill the Prophesy" question, in my theard called "Did Jesus fulfill the Prophesy". And could you answer my questions in "Original Sin?"

I would really appreciate it.
 
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