Who do you believe Paul or Jesus?

[786]

Hello,

I have some questions about Christianity. Please anwer if you can.
When you answer please provide as many quotes as possible, from the Bible.
When answering please tell me the number of the question so I know what you are answering. Or repeat the question when answering.

Trinity?

1. If Jesus was a God then why could people see him?

"No man hath seen God at any time," John 1:18

If no man have seen God, according to the Bible, then how could we see Jesus. (Jesus=God right?)
That is a direct contradiction.

Facts: Paul had never met Jesus.

God (Jesus) VS God?

"my Father is greater than I" John 14:28

2. Is God greater than himself?

"And it came to pass in those days, that he (Jesus) went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God."

3.Does God pray to himself?

"Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
John 20:17

4.Does God have a God?

Jesus VS Paul?

Paul's Words-

"I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee" Acts 23:6

By my understanding, Christians believe in the teachings of Paul. Right?

Jesus Words-

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hyprocites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."
Matthew 23:15

"In the mean time, when there were gathered together on an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he (Jesus) began to say unto his disciples: 'First of all, Beware ye of the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hyprocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be uncovered; and nothing secret that will not become known. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear closests shall be proclaimed upon the housetops."
Luke 12:1-3

These two verses tell us that Jesus said that watch out for Pharisees, hypocrit.

If Jesus said this then that makes Paul a hyprocrit. Then why do you (Christians) believe him?

5. Are you people telling me that you don't follow Jesus but Paul.

In my view Christians should follow Jesus's preaching not Paul's. Because Jesus is the holy one not Paul. Jesus is the Messiah not Paul.

Other contadictions between Jesus and Paul are as follows:

Isaiah 42:21 presents a prophesy that requires the coming prophet to magify the law of Moses, not destroy it. (sorry i don't have the verse, please read it if you have time) but In other words God says:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye dimish {ought}from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Dueteronomy 4:2

So God is commanding the People to follow the Commandments.

"Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always."
Dueteronomy 11:1

"For verily I (Jesus) say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach {them}, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:18-19

Obviously the heaven and earth has not come to pass.

Fact: Paul brought the idead, that you will not be judged by law, but only by faith.

Suddenly Paul comes along and starts to say:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Romans 3:28

If Jesus was God, then he should've known that he is going to be crucified. So if he knew then

6.Why didn't Jesus himself say that believe in my crucifixtion and you will be saved?
Paul is in direct contradiction with God, and Jesus.

Facts: 80+% of the New Testament is written by Paul.

7.Then why do Christians believe Paul's teachings even though he is contradicting Jesus? Who do you believe, Jesus or Paul?

Paul is the one who introduced Trinity.
Paul is the one who introduced the concept of not going by the law.

Fact: Trinity came into Christianity 3 centuries after Christ past away.

If it is not taught by Jesus then why do you people believe in it?

Paul is a Pharisee. Jesus told the desicple not to believe in the Pharisee, then why do you people belive in Paul.

Since most of the New Testament is written by Paul, a Pharisee. That means the NT is all fake because Jesus said not to believe in the Pharisee. The Old Testament should be the thing you believe in. Please think about the Paul and Jesus part. Because if you believe in Paul then you are defying, betraying Jesus, the one you say is God. So thus meaning you are defying God.

Peace be with you.

 

[§outh§tar]

Hello,

I have some questions about Christianity. Please anwer if you can.
When you answer please provide as many quotes as possible, from the Bible.
When answering please tell me the number of the question so I know what you are answering. Or repeat the question when answering.

Trinity?

1. If Jesus was a God then why could people see him?

"No man hath seen God at any time," John 1:18

1) I simply have to smile at this one. It's very interesting that you took it out of context, failing to even list the ENTIRE VERSE. Was that too difficult for you? If you read even the verse alone, without taking a phrase out of context, it reads:

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This distinguishes the Trinity, showing the relationship between the Father and the Son, which are furthermore described as One, in the sentence: "I and the Father are one". After all, before Jesus time, no one had seen God the Father but, if you actually took the time to read it, Jesus tells us that He came to BEAR witness of the Father, thus if you knew Jesus, you knew the Father.

God (Jesus) VS God?

"my Father is greater than I" John 14:28

2. Is God greater than himself?

He was referring to his presence on Earth, as a man. Surely you don't believe His human side was equal to the nature of God the Father do you? Again, if you did not take the phrase out of context, it reads:

Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

Most people on this forum understand that Christianity is based on the resurrection. When he resurrected, He went to the Father, a mercyseat of propitiation, quite frankly. That's why they should be glad, because He was going to the Father.

"And it came to pass in those days, that he (Jesus) went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God."

3.Does God pray to himself?

As I explained earlier, Jesus came to bear witness of the Father. As the Son of the Father, it is logical that He should commune with the Father. That proves His divinity all the more, for if He chose to have His own way and the Father also to have His own way then there would be discord which is not at all agreeable with the Divinity demonstrated therein.

"Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
John 20:17

4.Does God have a God?

Another question of context. Certainly the relationship between God the Father and God the Son is NOT the same as the relationship between God the Father and Mary Magdalene. Therefore it would be foolish to interpret both words in the same sense. He meant His God in connection with us. Jesus had habitually called God, His Father, but now referred to Him as our God. There is however another sense used earlier on in the crucifixion but the explanation I have given is according to context.

Jesus VS Paul?

Paul's Words-

"I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee" Acts 23:6

By my understanding, Christians believe in the teachings of Paul. Right?

Jesus Words-

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hyprocites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."
Matthew 23:15

"In the mean time, when there were gathered together on an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he (Jesus) began to say unto his disciples: 'First of all, Beware ye of the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hyprocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be uncovered; and nothing secret that will not become known. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear closests shall be proclaimed upon the housetops."
Luke 12:1-3

These two verses tell us that Jesus said that watch out for Pharisees, hypocrit.

If Jesus said this then that makes Paul a hyprocrit. Then why do you (Christians) believe him?

I am sure even you know of John 3:16 so I will not quote it but do you not remember that Jesus FORGAVE the scribes and Pharisees? John 3:16 also says WHOEVER believes in Him, meaning not even the Pharisees were exempt from redemption and furthermore confirming Jesus' graceful action.

5. Are you people telling me that you don't follow Jesus but Paul.

In my view Christians should follow Jesus's preaching not Paul's. Because Jesus is the holy one not Paul. Jesus is the Messiah not Paul.

Other contadictions between Jesus and Paul are as follows:

Isaiah 42:21 presents a prophesy that requires the coming prophet to magify the law of Moses, not destroy it. (sorry i don't have the verse, please read it if you have time) but In other words God says:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye dimish {ought}from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Dueteronomy 4:2

So God is commanding the People to follow the Commandments.

"Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always."
Dueteronomy 11:1

"For verily I (Jesus) say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach {them}, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:18-19

Obviously the heaven and earth has not come to pass.

Fact: Paul brought the idead, that you will not be judged by law, but only by faith.

Suddenly Paul comes along and starts to say:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Romans 3:28

I hear this "argument" a lot these days. A lot of idiots don't know that OTHER writers in the New Testament spoke of justification by faith, certainly NOT Paul alone and FURTHERMORE, they were not exactly writing in the same place that you should even remotely postulate that they borrowed each other's ideas. In John 5:24 Jesus says:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

If you can't understand that this is talking about faith NOT law then...

SECONDLY, Christianity had spread greatly before Paul even came into the "scene".

If Jesus was God, then he should've known that he is going to be crucified. So if he knew then

6.Why didn't Jesus himself say that believe in my crucifixtion and you will be saved?
Paul is in direct contradiction with God, and Jesus.

Funny enough, you couldn't provide a quote for that claim of belief in the "crucifixtion".

Facts: 80+% of the New Testament is written by Paul.

7.Then why do Christians believe Paul's teachings even though he is contradicting Jesus? Who do you believe, Jesus or Paul?

Paul is the one who introduced Trinity.
Paul is the one who introduced the concept of not going by the law.

http://answers.org/paul.html
http://www.christiancourier.com/feature/november98.htm

Need I remind you that so far, you have not provided one shred of evidence that Paul is contradicting Jesus. Read the links and learn.

Did I mention, Paul, even without knowledge of the other epistles, was in harmonious agreement with the other texts. I hope you are able to account for that as well.

 

[786]

1) I simply have to smile at this one. It's very interesting that you took it out of context, failing to even list the ENTIRE VERSE. Was that too difficult for you? If you read even the verse alone, without taking a phrase out of context, it reads:

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This distinguishes the Trinity, showing the relationship between the Father and the Son, which are furthermore described as One, in the sentence: "I and the Father are one". After all, before Jesus time, no one had seen God the Father but, if you actually took the time to read it, Jesus tells us that He came to BEAR witness of the Father, thus if you knew Jesus, you knew the Father.

Excuse me, but Moses saw God, and Moses was a man. It is also claimed by the Bible. I'll find the verse if you wish.

 

[James R]

Did Moses see God, or a burning bush caused by God?

 

[786]

Moses saw God on a Mountain. I will find the verse then you can look at it. Its really late here so I'll share it tomorrow. And I'll give you answers tommorow too, SouthStar.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Did Moses see God, or a burning bush caused by God?

Yes - see Ex. 24:9-11; Ex. 33:11.

 

[Adstar]

Exodus 33

17So the LORD said to Moses, "I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name."
18And he said, "Please, show me Your glory."
19Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." 20But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." 21And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."

well moses did see Gods back. But god said "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Jenyar]

To see the unseen; that is to see God.

 

[786]

1)I hear this "argument" a lot these days. A lot of idiots don't know that OTHER writers in the New Testament spoke of justification by faith, certainly NOT Paul alone and FURTHERMORE, they were not exactly writing in the same place that you should even remotely postulate that they borrowed each other's ideas. In John 5:24 Jesus says:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

If you can't understand that this is talking about faith NOT law then...

Well this verse is saying "hearth my word". Well I heard his words thus meaning I am saved. NO! You have to believe in his words to be "saved". Jesus repeatedly said "keep the commandments". That was his word. Not that you will only be judged by faith.

 

[786]

Exodus 33

17So the LORD said to Moses, "I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name."
18And he said, "Please, show me Your glory."
19Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." 20But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." 21And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."

well moses did see Gods back. But god said "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

God's back was God's right. Thus meaning he saw God. You don't have to see his face to say that he saw God. For example If I were go to a party wearing a white t-shirt, and I was the only one wearing white. Then anyone could point me out even if they saw my back. God in this case is the only one.

 

[786]

1) Funny enough, you couldn't provide a quote for that claim of belief in the "crucifixtion".

Well, because there is no need. Everyone knows that Christians believe that Jesus died for there sin. So he saved you all.

But I see the confusion. I should've wrote the question like this:

Why didn't Jesus himself say that believe I will be crucified for you sins, with which you shall all be saved?

 

[b0urgeoisie]

Jesus did not die for our sins. He suffered for our sins. That suffering took place in the garden before the cross. He died so that he could be resurrected. So that we may also be resurrected.
When we sin justice is wronged. Somehow justice must be satisfied for us to be saved. Jesus suffered and paid the price for us if we repent and keep his commandments.
A truth that was lost early was the truth of the resurrection. We will stand before God physically resurrected.

 

[b0urgeoisie]

As far as Paul it is true that he was a pharasee. That is why it is so foolish to think he was against marriage. He could not have been a pharisee if he was not married. According to Jewish law a person could not even preach unless he was 30 years old and married.
(This one wil spin your hat.) Jesus obeyed the law. He even waited until he was 30 to start his teaching.

 

[786]

I agree with you. But Paul said you will only be judged by faith. If you will only be judged by faith then why bother keeping the commandments?

 

[§outh§tar]

Well, because there is no need. Everyone knows that Christians believe that Jesus died for there sin. So he saved you all.

But I see the confusion. I should've wrote the question like this:

Why didn't Jesus himself say that believe I will be crucified for you sins, with which you shall all be saved?

There was no confusion on my part.

We are not saved by the crucifixion, but by the resurrection.

I can't believe you still don't understand this, in YOUR very own quote, you showed that Jesus had to return to the Father. This means that the RESURRECTION is what "saved" us.

This is the 1st chapter of Romans:

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

 

[§outh§tar]

Excuse me, but Moses saw God, and Moses was a man. It is also claimed by the Bible. I'll find the verse if you wish.

Well, again, if you had READ the verse, I was answering it in context, further demonstrated by my pointing out that the same word can be used in different senses.


By referring to seeing God's back, God the Father referred to seeing as much of His Glory as Moses was capable of in his frail mortal state. That is why humans are capable of knowing God, but only to some extent. Such is further demonstrated by the Genesis accounts where God speaks directly to Adam, but after the fall only does so by revelation through the prophets.

 

[§outh§tar]

Well this verse is saying "hearth my word". Well I heard his words thus meaning I am saved. NO! You have to believe in his words to be "saved". Jesus repeatedly said "keep the commandments". That was his word. Not that you will only be judged by faith.

Ok, now you are contradicting yourself.

"You have to believe in his words to be saved" and then you say you will not only be judged by faith...

Well let me lay it out for you:

Faith establishes righteousness. Abraham's righteousness was accounted for by faith. Hence the test of him killing his son on the mountain.

 

[b0urgeoisie]

I agree with you. But Paul said you will only be judged by faith. If you will only be judged by faith then why bother keeping the commandments?

Paul never meant that in anything he said. You have to understand that the people described in the Bible are still people. Now read the works of Paul with that in mind. At first it seems like Paul contradicts himself. But, if you try to get an understanding of Paul by his letters you will see that Paul was a passionate man. He often, in his efforts to make a point, would overemphasize one principle (faith) at the exclusion of another (works). With that in mind reread the works of Paul and you will see how true it is. He just as often overemphasized the need for doing good things at the exclusion of faith.
It is the same kind of thing with his statements on marriage. In his letter he was speaking of young church members engaging in the same kind of missionary work that he was. So with his passionate way he makes statements that seem to discourage marriage. He was saying to these kids that they should try to keep it in their pants while they were working full time for the cause of christ. But, if they couldn't it would be better to have only the distraction of a family than to end up going too far outside of marriage.

 

[§outh§tar]

@ 786

Perhaps you're talking about this?

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[786]

Ok, now you are contradicting yourself.

"You have to believe in his words to be saved" and then you say you will not only be judged by faith...

Well let me lay it out for you:

Faith establishes righteousness. Abraham's righteousness was accounted for by faith. Hence the test of him killing his son on the mountain.

I am not contradicting myself. Where does Jesus say forget the law, Only have faith.

Jesus in his words never claimed only have faith, and forget the work.

So if you were to be saved by believing in his word. Thus meaning you have to follow the commandments, because that was his word.