Who created God?

MarcAC said:
The same question may be asked of atheists - there is nothing to govern your actions other than physical limits - you can kill, steal ,hate etc. all you want with the excuse that you just "feel it's the right thing". No atheist should criticize Hitler... he just followed through with his ideals right? His truth.[/color]
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Well yeah, and that's precisely the reason why the few atheists that don't spend their whole time killing, stealing and hating may even deserve a little credit for it. Oh, wait, maybe there's indeed something other than physical limits governing our actions.

Hint: Empathy.
 
Sarkus said:
MarcAC - most of this is merely an argument from fear - in that you can't imagine life without believing this - so therefore you do.
So it all goes back to the concept of religion, and of God, as being a self-made belief to help people accept where they are.
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What??? :p I'll forgive your forwardness. Have you read the discourse between Raithere and I??? :confused: That is no more an argument from fear than Raithere's "assumption through necessity". It is not due to fear Sarkus, dear, it is necessary for an absolute foundation for purpose, meaning and thus thought. Even if it is the point is certainly a moot one.
As soon as you assign ANYTHING to God, personal or otherwise, the probability of it being correct is ZERO.
All that can be said is that there IS (i.e. mathematically certain) something (and I use the word in the loosest sense) outside our Universe that it is IMPOSSIBLE to conceptualise and IMPOSSIBLE to assign anything to (space, time, existence, matter, energy, in fact anything you can think of - including purpose, emotion etc).
If you call this "god" then it is merely a label for everything outside our universe. But as soon as you assign anything to it, believing in that assignation, and then start worshipping it, then you are into the realms of delusion.
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We live by the information available to us. If we are going to begin to find out what God may be like, we look at ourselves and our surroundings, that which God created. The creation will provide us with some clue as to the nature of the Creator, thus positions such as deism.

Infinity is a mathematical concept and wherever it has the potential to arise in the physical world observation always imposes a limit opun the value itself - i.e. infinity (though very useful) has not yet been proven to exist in the real world. Similarly, while there might hypothetically be an infinite number of views on God, observation of our surroundings imposes limits - we have yet to observe an infinite number of universes (or a "white bearded guy in the sky" as some atheists percieve).

The mathematical probability may be minimal, however we can be sure that many if not all of the coneptualisations are mutually exclusive - thus if we look at physical reality we can be sure that the potential exists for it all to be reduced to one certainty as we discover, learn and elliminate. Does anyone still believe in the Hellenistic gods?

Faith plays a crucial role of course as we have on life to live. The Patriarchs heralded it; Jesus heralded it; the apostles heralded it; Christians of today herald it - we live by faith - we must (even if by faith in the usefulness of assumptions). This life dictates which branch of the Y we take onward - we must choose while we can - we must have faith in God through our selves or trust the Devil through oursleves (atheism is simply equivalent to "I don't need God" and equivalent to the Devil's stance). Regardless, the onus is upon us.
 
fadeaway humper said:
Empathy.
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For example, if an atheist arrives at the randomly generated conclusion that all life is useless and we all should die, he may thus express empathy and kill as many as he can? :confused:
 
MarcAC said:
For example, if an atheist arrives at the randomly generated conclusion that all life is useless and we all should die, he may thus express empathy and kill as many as he can? :confused:
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Yes, I can see you are confused. Maybe if you made the effort of learning what empathy means, you wouldn't mistake it for rapture-readyness.

Empathy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Empathy is the recognition and understanding of the states of mind, including beliefs, desires and particularly emotions of others.

Glad to clear that up for you.
 
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Saint said:
If Everything must have a cause (causes) in order to exist, then, who created God?

If God does not need to be created, then how can he exist?
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It is logically wrong to think that everything must have a cause.

Somethings just are. Simple, nice and refreshing. Just get over all the "cause and effect issues". What cause does truth have?
 
If we are going to begin to find out what God may be like, we look at ourselves
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yeah, because god is a manifestation of mans survival instinct, and thus only exists within people to blinded by themselves to see the truth.
 
For example, if an atheist arrives at the randomly generated conclusion that all life is useless and we all should die, he may thus express empathy and kill as many as he can?

For as much as I cannot understand the dogmatic mind of a Christian, you appear equally unable to understand the mind of someone who uses logic and reason.

Atheists (using logic and reason) are not interested in controlling the masses (unlike Christianity) nor are they interested in wasting their lives in pursuit of an afterlife (unlike Christianity), nor do they need to come to the conclusion that life on Earth has some meaning in regards to a grand scheme (unlike Christianity).
 
MarcAc: it would be imposssible for an atheist to come to that conclusion, to an atheist life is far to sacred, an atheist knows this is your one and only chance at life.
therefore it would be cruel, callous and extremely unfair to deprive anyone of there chance.
because an atheist knows this, he is of a much much higher moral caliber then an religious person.

religious people feel they can kill with inpunity, as they believe they will goto to a better life after this, for themselves and there victims.
for instance why do suicide bombers blow themselve up. and kill others in the process.
it most certainly is not, because he believes its the end for good, is it.
 
cato said:
yeah, because god is a manifestation of mans survival instinct, and thus only exists within people to blinded by themselves to see the truth.
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Don't be so sure of that. You say "because" without thinking too much about it, it seems. Perhaps because you want to show your contempt for religion? Of course that tastes bad for us that believe in God. We look at what you say and we don't take it in, because it doesn't even have the validity of smelling right. This is why the debate becomes old and sorry. It's corrupted, bad water.
 
(Q) said:
Reason and rationale govern an atheists actions.
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This wonderful link which I shall soon turn my attention to was provided by scorpius - but I'm guessing you disagree.

MarcAC said:
By selfishly attempting to impose what you think is best on others right?
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Q said:
You mean, such as Christianity?
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[smily effectively illustrating expression not available]
And Christians don't contradict one another?
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Yes, they may.
An atheists "best" may contradict anothers, so what?
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It may present a problem when deciding what is "best" for humanity, unless of course, you're a nihilist and nothing makes sense... so you just act "randomly".
At least they are both representing reason and rationale and are not regurgitating dogma. Big difference.
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Dogma is based on reason and rationale through faith and experience. There's no difference really. Atheists arrive at the "no god" dogma while theists arrive at the "god" dogma through reason and rationale.

The only thing this post should do is make the atheist get off his high horse and realise we're all on the same boat as far as he sees things. Of course, if he were to trust God through faith he'd realise that it's just the same type of boat and they're headed in different directons one guided by the faithful current to God and the other incessantly stuck on the faithful current elsewhere.
 
atheism is simply equivalent to "I don't need God"

No, atheism is more along the lines of "I don't need to believe in gods."

The difference is in the assertion that gods exist.
 
No atheist should criticize Hitler... he just followed through with his ideals right? His truth.
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He sure did Hitler was a Christian!. :rolleyes:

*George W Bush, speaking words the "Christian Right" wants to hear, is not the first national leader to use Christian morality as a rallying cry. Nor is he the first whose actions do not correspond to his words.

"The National Government will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built up. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality and the family as the basis of national life."
We can perhaps learn from human experience. Those two sentences were spoken February 1, 1933 by Adolf Hitler during his first radio address after coming to power. These quotes that follow are also from Hitler, the same year.

It is the purpose of the Government "to fill our whole culture once more with a Christian spirit, and that not only in politics. We want to burn out the harmful features in our theater and our literature."*
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**"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."**Adolf Hitler.
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The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine.

---Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated.
For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.

---Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

It will at any rate be my supreme task to see to it that in the newly awakened NSDAP, the adherents of both Confessions can live peacefully together side by side in order that they may take their stand in the common fight against the power which is the mortal foe of any true Christianity.

---Adolf Hitler, in an article headed "A New Beginning," 26 Feb. 1925

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

---Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

Ref

Godless
 
(Q) said:
atheism is simply equivalent to "I don't need God"

No, atheism is more along the lines of "I don't need to believe in gods."

The difference is in the assertion that gods exist.
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Atheism is believing that there is no God. You are simply describing your feelings on the matter. Not all are like you. Not all atheists are feeling that they don't need Him.

Agnostics haven't made their mind on the matter, they won't say that they don't believe in God. Not if they are pure agnostics, they might say under pressure that they don't believe while in their harts remaining agnostic, but that's simply lying - or maybe they are shifting swiftly over to both sides of beliefs depending on their situation.
 
fadeaway humper said:
Glad to clear that up for you.
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Well, you cleared up your position quite well (lol @ the empathy humour) - and while I now understand its nature (i.e. your position) I still cannot reconcile it to good sense. So for the person who wants to die but has no means of killing himself... say someone bedridden; empathise? Atheism is a dangerous thing.
 
It may present a problem when deciding what is "best" for humanity, unless of course, you're a nihilist and nothing makes sense... so you just act "randomly".

Acting 'randomly' in regards to making decisions involving humanity is not part of the atheist mindset. That cannot be said for the theist mindset, though.
 
Not all atheists are feeling that they don't need Him.

That makes no sense - how can someone feel they need that which they don't believe exists?

Agnostics haven't made their mind on the matter, they won't say that they don't believe in God.

Agnostics are essentially atheists as well - they do not believe gods exist.

that's simply lying - or maybe they are shifting swiftly over to both sides of beliefs depending on their situation.

So what?
 
Atheism is a dangerous thing.
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Thanks for the joke.

Christianity, the church known for the dark ages. When the gullible people were under the spell of religious notions, and to speak against it. Meant death, perjury, or torture. That was not dangerous?

Your main representative of Christianity, the joker whom you base your faith in claims to be son of god, did not come to bring pease. But war.
"I have come not to bring peace on earth but a sword, and to make a division among men..." (Matthew 10:34)

CHRISTIANITY IS DANGEROUS

Three reasons to reject God: 1. As God has historically served as a force for evil and it seems that any Demon could very easily trick us into thinking it is God we must reject all feelings and thoughts from God for fear of us being deluded. 2. The major monotheistic religions hold that idolatry is a serious sin so it is safer to accept no god rather than risk accepting the incorrect one. 3. The goal of reaching heaven is dubious as we know very little about what heaven is really like. In conclusion: Atheism is safer than theism and for everyone's safety it is urgent we all reject theism.
GOD IS DANGEROUS

Godless
 
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