Who created God?

[(Q)]

Then we can conclude that all of the millions upon millions of people throughout history and today who claim to be born again, or to have any spiritual experience whatsoever, especially those in which council is given (good or bad...true or false), has schizophrenia.

Only those who claim to talk or listen to gods are schizophrenic, or posses some other mental disorder.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Lori_7,

It's more like the millions upon millions have some type of mass hysteria or delusion than that they all have schizophrenia. I'm sure many do have the latter, but for the rest, it's that they feel safer in the group and are able to overcome many of their innate fears through their "experience" with God and communion with others in the group. Also, many are "recruited" at such a young age and are incapable of leaving the safety of the group once they reach adulthood. Once you are conditioned to think a certain way, it can be very, very difficult to undo the conditioning as you get older. It's very scary to leave the fold.

Likewise, for those not raised in a religious atmosphere, I think that at some point in their lives they might very well look for answers through one of the God's mainly because life can be very hard as well. But eventually, if your honest enough with yourself, and strong enough, you will conclude that God is just a tool used by many to get through a difficult life. Which is fine by me. I won't knock you too much for doing what you have to to get through this sometimes hellish life.

I just ask you to try not to be so single-minded that you overlook some important detail.

CT3000

 

[Godless]

Clear and consice definition of schizophrenia;
click

If you talk to God, you are praying;
If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.

If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist;
If God talks to you, you are a schizophrenic.
Thomas S. Szasz.

Godless.

 

[Cris]

Lori,

Then we can conclude that all of the millions upon millions of people throughout history and today who claim to be born again, or to have any spiritual experience whatsoever, especially those in which council is given (good or bad...true or false), has schizophrenia.

That’s probably a bit too strong, but more accurately we can say they are simply deluded, in pretty much the same way that everyone on the planet for most of the history of mankind believed the world was flat. That a large number of people believe something unsupported gives no indication of whether it is true, and history shows they are always wrong. Truth is not determined by a democratic vote no matter how much you want your fantasy to be real.

 

[Lori_7]

Lori_7,

It's more like the millions upon millions have some type of mass hysteria or delusion than that they all have schizophrenia. I'm sure many do have the latter, but for the rest, it's that they feel safer in the group and are able to overcome many of their innate fears through their "experience" with God and communion with others in the group. Also, many are "recruited" at such a young age and are incapable of leaving the safety of the group once they reach adulthood. Once you are conditioned to think a certain way, it can be very, very difficult to undo the conditioning as you get older. It's very scary to leave the fold.

Yea...that's not me...not even close.

Likewise, for those not raised in a religious atmosphere, I think that at some point in their lives they might very well look for answers through one of the God's mainly because life can be very hard as well. But eventually, if your honest enough with yourself, and strong enough, you will conclude that God is just a tool used by many to get through a difficult life. Which is fine by me. I won't knock you too much for doing what you have to to get through this sometimes hellish life.

If it works, then why does it? If it doesn't work, then why do so many people keep using it? I don't think that my life is any more or less "hellish" or difficult than it's ever been or ever will be. It's my perception that is different, and continues to evolve. God has blessed me. When I consider all that He's done for me I feel like the most blessed person in the world...it's amazing. But my realization and appreciation is all relative to my perception.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Lori_7,

It works for some because everyone is different. Some need it, others feel like they are betraying themselves and their core-selves by giving into the feelings of safety it might bring.

It doesn't work for everyone. If it did, I'd never have left the "fold." All I'm saying is that I don't think you know for sure what you feel or believe. You may be thinking otherwise, and you'll probably tell me so, but I'm rarely 100% sure of my feelings or beliefs. I'm constantly questioning them, especially after my childhood conditioning as a Christian and my baptism at the age of 7. I try to think for myself now, not let those around me influence me through their confusion and emotional delusion.

I don't allow myself to get locked into one type of thinking anymore, or at least I try not to. Don't forget that you can't force what your preaching onto people (after their grown-up anyway); all you can do is try to change their perceptions about the universe and perception is a very slippery slope with very few, if any, real answers.

CT3000

P.S. In addition, feelings often change.

 

[Yorda]

If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.

are you sure "schizophrenia" is always a disease then?

 

[Cottontop3000]

Good question Yorda,

I don't know. I don't know much of anything. Sometimes I wonder why I try to make it sound like I do. I mean, do some people, like Lori, know that God exists, or do they just really, really hope that he does? I used to think that I KNEW He did exist, but how can we really know until He either comes down from on high, or we die. If I felt that God had really spoken to me, I'd question my sanity or my motivations.

CT3000

 

[Medicine*Woman]

jayleew: God has emotions and we are made in his image. They are seen throughout the Bible. Even Jesus got ticked and pushed over some tables.
*************
M*W: How can an omniscient being have human emotions?
*************
jayleew: Yes, he knows there are unbelievers, but if they unbelieve in him, he is jealous. He wants all the attention, that is why we were created.
*************
M*W: If your god wants all the "attention," he is definitely "jealous," but "jealousy" is no place for a true god.
*************
Jayleew: A couple of months ago, I heard a "Sermon" from an amazing thinker Louie Giglio of the Passion movement. In it he started to talk about how God sees us by diving into Genesis. When I first started hearing about him saying that my God is selfish I was getting upset and offended. My face flushed and the hairs stood up on the back of my head. Everything I knew from the Bible was from my perspective (wait a minute I'm important, God loves me! How can you say God is that way!). That's where I screwed up. It is not about me. I wasn't created for me, but for God. At that time I found out that I don't matter to God. He loves me and wants me to take part in his plan, but he can make it without me just the same. Too often we Christians think that we were God's gift to the world just becuase we were created last, as if God parted the way so we could enter. I was wrong, and I knew it in my heart. Louie's perspective was God's perspective. It changed my way of thinking.
*************
M*W: If you believe Jesus loves you, then he does. But, if you believe Jesus has no passion for you or anyone, you're probably right. You are searching fruitlessly for anykind of inkling that there is a God who will save you, but in your heart, you know this deity does not exist. I wish I could make it true for you, but I can't. You need to focus on the truth, not on what you think has been promised to you!

So, my God is a jealous God of anyone who does not spend time with him. So what? God is God and we (Christians) need to stop wishing we were God. It was the first sin, and it continues today.

Later that day I met a bum on the street. I sat down with him, gave him some money and asked him how he was doing. Immediately he said, "You aren't going to start talking about Jesus, are you?" I was shocked! I said, "No, I just want to know if there is anything that I can do for you." I offered him some nachos that I had picked up on the way back to my hotel, but he wasn't hungry for food. He wanted the booze. He told me he did.

That day I learned that this faith we Christians say we have is not to be shoved down people's throats. We are to love our God, then our neighbor. We need to love and serve people where they are at.

That is why I came to this forum. I googled for "i hate christians" and the like. Boy there are some freaky sites. Well, this forum seemed interesting. I just want to try and take away the bad image that Christians have. That we can sit and talk about things that are tough and not with our Christian fluff. I apologize if I frustrate anyone with the fluff, but when I see scripture misquoted or misunderstood, it is in everyone's best interest that the error is remedied. I will not use the fluff to prove anything unless its logic is used against me.

So here I am pulled into a debate that scripture says to avoid. It is not sin, but it is pointless more or less, scripture says. Well, now I mean to finish my studies to learn more science to back up my belief because I already have the scriptures for those that respect the scriptures.



Thank you, I will have to check these out![/QUOTE]

 

[MarcAC]

Because I am unable to resolve what purpose a deity could have in creating the world the way it is.
Other than, let's say, perverse whim.

You accept that some sort of evolutionary process occurs within the universe right? Now add the fact that we have free will to affect and effect the course of that evolution - much more relevant to "the world (earth)" of course. While God is creator, we also have to accept responsibility for the state of human society - i.e. "the world the way it is". What does that mean anyway? Of course you might have preferred to be a star or an atom of silicon, both of which appear to have no will... I prefer my free will and thus my awareness.

Pragmatism. For instance, I cannot prove that I am not simply imagining the world or that an intrinsically chaotic world is filtered into an illusory order by my senses.

While I concur with the [latter], I think the [former] is a non-issue; regardless, it (physical world) is all experienced via neural processes. Providing God's Spirit lives within I would think it "senses" the non-physical. The "former" may be regarded by some as evidence for a God who specially values humanity.

But if I assume that my perception is only illusion I have no foundation for thought or action. So my pragmatic assumption is that my senses are more or less reliable indicators of an actual external reality.

How do you establish the validity of assumptions themselves Raithere? You assume that too?

My reply is not "It doesn't have to be that way" my reply is "How do you know this is correct?" I'm not concerned with "what ifs".

So how do I know that it is God as opposed to the universe, because it doesn't have to be God, it could be the universe? Same statement - just paraphrased. How do you know this is correct surely implies that there are rational alternatives - if not why ask - no rational reason?

Nope the question still remains. Meaning is like movement. You cannot have meaning if there is only one thing. Meaning is a relationship between things.

Thus God, The Creator, Is, and so is His creation which we are a part of and there is meaning. One universe: no meaning. That's what you're saying right? Meaning must be defined from some "frame of reference". We are assigned puprose relative to God we assign God's purpose relative to what we are able to "trace back to" God; His Creation. So why are we disagreeing then?

Occam's Razor states we should make no more assumptions than needed. So we can assume the Universe is uncaused. Or we can assume the Universe is caused and that there is a God who caused it, who is himself uncaused. There's no point to the added assumption. It merely moves the property of being uncaused back one step. It doesn't explain how something could be without being caused. It doesn't allow you to escape the conclusion. It doesn't provide us with anything except a repository for that which has not or cannot be explained.

But from above and I would say my previous posts Occam's Razor is not applicable in this case. All things are not equal. With God there is meaning, purpose, sense. Without God there is none.

This is, IMO, mostly what the concept of God is about anyway. "We can't explain that so it must have been God, and God is unfathomable so we don't have to try and explain God." God is not a logical escape clause.

Of course not; God is a necessity. Necessary for logic to make sense, necessary for us to exist and necessary for the salvation of humankind.

Once again, you arbitrarily assign a property to God that you deny for everything else. In this case it is the derivation of meaning or purpose.

You said it yourself [above]... meaning implies a relationship... reference... I for one cannot live without acknowledging some purpose to my existence other than existence itself... sure... I came from dust... but I'm not dust... I'm more than that, aren't you?

If we apply your premise (something uncaused has no meaning or purpose) to God then God has no meaning or purpose.

But I say that's not my exact "premise". It simply is that there must be a First Cause and that makes it all make sense - especially when you apply your "meaning is like movement" analysis to it.

The next logical question is; how can something with no meaning or purpose imbue something else with meaning and purpose.

And you have provided yourself with your logical answer [see above].

Again, the answer of "God" explains nothing. We're still left with the question of where meaning comes from. It's just been pushed back a step.

No, we're not. I've seen the valiant water use the phrase "circles in time" for circular reasoning. A very profound statement IMO... or better yet, beautifully expressed... a paraphrase would be; "logic is built on assumptions". Turning around the bad stigma attacehd to "circular reasoning" as if it all isn't reduced to that.

 

[scorpius]

.. With God there is meaning, purpose, sense. Without God there is none.
God is a necessity. Necessary for logic to make sense, necessary for us to exist and necessary for the salvation of humankind.

this is just totaly illogical,

if you believe in heavenly afterlife why keep on living,strugle,suffer put up with all the boring, stupid, evil people and such..
why not live dangerously or kill each other in some war and get there sooner to claim your seventy virgins..

without Gods

atheists KNOWLEDGE that this life is all we have makes it so totaly,incredibly absofuckinglutely way more MEANINGFULL,precious and important that we try to make this life and this world the best we can,

in fact you could say our purpose is to make the Earth our heaven for us and future generations as we know we will never see in the afterlife b/c it doesnt exist its just a wishful thinking...a fantasy.

 

[Godless]

are you sure "schizophrenia" is always a disease then?

Don't you ever look at a link?

Any of a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations, and accompanied in varying degrees by other emotional, behavioral, or intellectual disturbances. Schizophrenia is associated with dopamine imbalances in the brain and defects of the frontal lobe and is caused by genetic, other biological, and psychosocial factors.

From the link above.

Schizophrenia is generally believed to be a brain disorder, just as other disorders such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's or Multiple Sclerosis. Schizophrenia appears to be a failure of the brain's chemical or electrical systems to function properly, resulting in a variety of unusual neural twists, such as disjointed ideas, confused or disconnected thoughts, and sounds or other sensations experienced as real when they exist only in the person's mind.

LINK

So Yorda, if you believe that you can will your reality by whim, or are hearing voices that tell you things. then you could possibly have a psychosis of schizophrenia!.

Godless

 

[jayleew]

Have fun learning of your mental disorder!.

Godless

Okay, so you are saying that 70 percent or more of American voters are schizophrenic? Besides, I've never heard any "voice" of God that is anything like a voice inside my head. We are all guilty of talking to ourselves in our heads, so are we all Schizophrenic because we hear ourselves think?

Chances are if you think most people are idiot, aren't you actually the idiot?

Besides all of has some mental disorder, some are worse than others, but we all have a bit of something. That is the way Psychology explains all abnormal behavior.

 

[Yorda]

So Yorda, if you believe that you can will your reality by whim, or are hearing voices that tell you things. then you could possibly have a psychosis of schizophrenia!.

All people hear "voices"... like their conscience... if you're going to lie, it might say "don't lie". Reality can also be changed on a whim, just fantisize yourself into whatever place you will, and you'll forget this reality if you concentrate hard. See? Children often have fantasy buddies and they talk with them, and in their mind, they respond to them etc. Speaking to God means that we speak to ourselves, to our higher self. You know psychology.

I'm just trying to say that it's not always so easy to say what is disease, who is crazy and who is not.

 

[jayleew]

Lori_7,

It's more like the millions upon millions have some type of mass hysteria or delusion than that they all have schizophrenia. I'm sure many do have the latter, but for the rest, it's that they feel safer in the group and are able to overcome many of their innate fears through their "experience" with God and communion with others in the group. Also, many are "recruited" at such a young age and are incapable of leaving the safety of the group once they reach adulthood. Once you are conditioned to think a certain way, it can be very, very difficult to undo the conditioning as you get older. It's very scary to leave the fold.

You are correct, so why is Evolution being taught in schools as FACT when the scientific community is accepts the evidence of Evolution, but they do not agree with it being fact. I was brainwashed to believe in Evolution in my public school as well. They could have just said, "Here are the facts, draw your own conclusion. Research more because there is something here."

I just ask you to try not to be so single-minded that you overlook some important detail.

You mean like how life was created? Science has evidence that we have a common ancestor between some species. Okay, that is fine, we are all made of the same creator who had the same way of making things. You have proven nothing yet.

Even if nature is able to create amino acids, it is incredibly far to becoming life that the idea is absurd. You have to get the " right number of the right kinds of amino acids to link up to create a protein molecule...and even that would still be a long way from a living cell. They you'd need dozens of protein molecules, again in the right sequence, to creat a living cell. The odds against this are astonishing. The gap between nonliving chemicals and even the most primitive living organism is absolutely tremendous." (Dr. Jonathan Wells)

Is that important?

 

[Godless]

Okay, so you are saying that 70 percent or more of American voters are schizophrenic?

Did you see the site?. Apx 2 million people suffer from schizophrenia. this info comes straight from CDC (Center of Desease Control). That amount hardly makes 70% of the population of the US. it's more like 1% of the population.

All people hear "voices"... like their conscience

That is not what it implied. Lets say you hear music in your head, voices in your head that are not of your own volition, comands or warnings.

Read the link, familiarize yourself with the psychosis, not only for your benefit but for understanding of the desease.

Schizophrenia may be induced by habitual hallucigenic drug use as well. I read that today!

Schizophrenia from Wikipedia:
click and learn!

Godless

 

[jayleew]

jayleew: God has emotions and we are made in his image. They are seen throughout the Bible. Even Jesus got ticked and pushed over some tables.
*************
M*W: How can an omniscient being have human emotions?
*************

How can a limited being have Godly emotions?
I fail to see the logic of how an omnisicient God cannot have emotions. Help me out.

jayleew: Yes, he knows there are unbelievers, but if they unbelieve in him, he is jealous. He wants all the attention, that is why we were created.
*************
M*W: If your god wants all the "attention," he is definitely "jealous," but "jealousy" is no place for a true god.

*************

What is your logic for this statement?
Who are we anyway to say what a god can and cannot have, or what he is or is not?

If I was a god, I'd say, "You fools, you are wasting your time trying to figure me out, you can't begin to understand me and my unlimited power."

 

[Yorda]

That is not what it implied. Lets say you hear music in your head, voices in your head that are not of your own volition, comands or warnings.

But everything we hear in our head is in our head, otherwise we wouldn't even be consicous of those things.

Read the link, familiarize yourself with the psychosis, not only for your benefit but for understanding of the desease.

For my own benefit? Hehe. You take me too seriously, sometimes I just like to express my thoughts in a shocking way.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

jayleew: How can a limited being have Godly emotions? I fail to see the logic of how an omnisicient God cannot have emotions. Help me out.
*************
M*W: Emotions are a human fraility. Omniscient gods are not beholden to human emotions.
*************
jayleew: What is your logic for this statement? Who are we anyway to say what a god can and cannot have, or what he is or is not?
*************
M*W: A god who is more powerful than humans cannot succumb to human emotions.
*************
jayleew: If I was a god, I'd say, "You fools, you are wasting your time trying to figure me out, you can't begin to understand me and my unlimited power."
*************
M*W: Well, unfortunately, there is no god who could say, "You fools, you are wasting your time trying to figure me out, you can't begin to understand me and my unlimited power."

 

[Godless]

*Is that important?

No Dr Wells if full of shit. Pseudo science is not science.
http://www.theistic-evolution.com/design.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/pigliucci1.html

G.