Which one is more scientific: Allopathy or Homeopathy?

Lets see some statistics.
Sure, what would you like to see? EBM has studies for every prescription medication that demonstrate their efficacy and for many treatments as well. These take into account the placebo effect as well. Unfortunately, the same can't be said of homeopathy... well, what I should say is that those studies we do have of homeopathy don't show any beneficial results.

I don't agree. I KNOW that whiskey works wonders, even when it's diluted with water.
Naw... whisky is merely palliative. :p


Or does it? Does statistically significant equal biologically significant?
Huh?

http://www.statsoft.com/textbook/stathome.html
http://www.tufts.edu/~gdallal/LHSP.HTM

And this is a weird approach to take in clinical trials where intra and inter individual variation is so high as to mask many effects. I've seen scientists talk about a 40 point difference in blood glucose as "negligible" because they cannot comprehend that biology is not statistics. Its also a reflection of their restricted worldview.
No, it's because normal blood glucose variation is from 70 to 140 depending on when and what you last ate or drank. Therefore a rise from 70 to 110 would be quite normal and healthy. A rise from 180 to 220 or a drop from 70 to 30 would be a problem however.

To give an example: I know a research student who was testing the possible therapeutic effects of a compound in a cancer model. His results showed that although there was a trend, the effects were not statistically significant. Now because this was a smart Chinese boy, he went on to examine why some of the subjects did not show a treatment effect. And found a mutation that makes the subjects unresponsive to the treatment. But this kind of thinking is very rare among scientists.
Actually, this is common. Particularly if there are good reasons to believe something should have happened. It's really part and parcel of the scientific process and one of the reasons why studies are so detailed and why controls are such an important part of the process. Trends like this are found quite often. If you're not controlling your variables, you have no idea what happened.

~Raithere
 
If you're not controlling your variables, you have no idea what happened.

Exactly. How often is this applied when you do find a treatment effect?
 
In allopathy, new medicines (sources are mostly chemical/synthetic) are constantly being created, tested in test-tubes, sick persons, or animals (rats), and going in and out of market every few years once their side effects (typical examples are of steroids, antibiotics, hormones) become obvious to the general public. How many allopathic drugs of yesterday can be found on the chemists' shelves today? They all had their day, and their alluring names have faded into oblivion (because they are declared ineffective or dangerous), only to be replaced by newer drugs.

Homeopathic medicines (prepared from many natural substances such as herbs and minerals) used in the times of Dr. S. Hahnemann (200 yrs back) are used even today because of their efficacy. They have been tried and tested on healthy human beings. They are known, trusted, and reliable.

Just about the time that a drug patent runs out, the manufacturer finds some safety problem with it, gets the original drug banned, and then patents a modification that is allegedly supposed to be safer. This prevents the drugs from going generic. That's what they did when they went from seldane to Allegra.
 
those studies we do have of homeopathy don't show any beneficial results.

As measured by?
No, it's because normal blood glucose variation is from 70 to 140 depending on when and what you last ate or drank. Therefore a rise from 70 to 110 would be quite normal and healthy. A rise from 180 to 220 or a drop from 70 to 30 would be a problem however.

A problem? Based on what? If its statistically not significant, on what do you base your conclusion?

Actually, this is common. Particularly if there are good reasons to believe something should have happened.

No its not. Grants are written based on expectations of results. Negative results are not considered as results.
 
Sure, what would you like to see? EBM has studies for every prescription medication that demonstrate their efficacy and for many treatments as well. These take into account the placebo effect as well. Unfortunately, the same can't be said of homeopathy... well, what I should say is that those studies we do have of homeopathy don't show any beneficial results.

Naw... whisky is merely palliative. :p

Huh?

http://www.statsoft.com/textbook/stathome.html
http://www.tufts.edu/~gdallal/LHSP.HTM

No, it's because normal blood glucose variation is from 70 to 140 depending on when and what you last ate or drank. Therefore a rise from 70 to 110 would be quite normal and healthy. A rise from 180 to 220 or a drop from 70 to 30 would be a problem however.

Actually, this is common. Particularly if there are good reasons to believe something should have happened. It's really part and parcel of the scientific process and one of the reasons why studies are so detailed and why controls are such an important part of the process. Trends like this are found quite often. If you're not controlling your variables, you have no idea what happened.

~Raithere

You are right. Will you please come and offer me palliative care in the form of a whiskey drip ?
 
Just about the time that a drug patent runs out, the manufacturer finds some safety problem with it, gets the original drug banned, and then patents a modification that is allegedly supposed to be safer. This prevents the drugs from going generic. That's what they did when they went from seldane to Allegra.

That's a statement about capitalism. This thread is about allopathy versus homeopathy.

If you want some ammunition I can tell you that in the US during the past ten years the ratio of pharmaceutical sales reps per doctor has increased to 2 reps to 5 doctors. Megabucks, but not the subject of this thread.
 
sam you going to put your hand up to prove that homoeopathy has any real evidence?

better be quick, the debate has already started
 
Or does it? Does statistically significant equal biologically significant? A 5% increase in muscle mass for example may not be statistically significant, but you'd have to take steroids and pump iron to attain it. Most people get so wound up in the tools of the trade that they forget that the tools are limited. And this is a weird approach to take in clinical trials where intra and inter individual variation is so high as to mask many effects. I've seen scientists talk about a 40 point difference in blood glucose as "negligible" because they cannot comprehend that biology is not statistics. Its also a reflection of their restricted worldview. To give an example: I know a research student who was testing the possible therapeutic effects of a compound in a cancer model. His results showed that although there was a trend, the effects were not statistically significant. Now because this was a smart Chinese boy, he went on to examine why some of the subjects did not show a treatment effect. And found a mutation that makes the subjects unresponsive to the treatment. But this kind of thinking is very rare among scientists.


No, I understand exactly what you're saying - the old "who the fuck decided a=0.05 was the uniform benchmark, anyway?" issue, essentially. But if the means of effectiveness are the same for both treatments, it would seem they're of equal effectiveness, which would mean that homeopathy was equivalent to no treatment. Yet, as you say, if the mean effectiveness of homeopathy was higher than that of placebo medicine at some lesser alpha value but still within human reason of being different (say, 0.2 or even 0.3), then that would be a case that could be argued. But what's the % difference, anyway? Does it justify a parallel system? And what if placebo effectiveness is higher than homeopathic effectiveness at some again lower alpha?

Exactly. How often is this applied when you do find a treatment effect?

ALWAYS, in my line of work. Fixed and random environmental variables are always, always integral.
 
Homeopathic medicines (prepared from many natural substances such as herbs and minerals) used in the times of Dr. S. Hahnemann (200 yrs back) are used even today because of their efficacy. They have been tried and tested on healthy human beings. They are known, trusted, and reliable.

Back in the day when Herr Hahnemann was alive people also used amulets to protect themselves and they'd still occasionally brutalize old women for being "witches".

Homeopathy has lasted longer than amulets for the most part (though "good luck charms" are amulets as well, and some people still have those), but it's a child compared to the ancient, but useless, art of astrology. Despite astrology being bunk, it's lasted for many millennia because people delude themselves into thinking it works. Antiquity is no guarantee of authenticity, especially when dealing with science.

The truth is that homeopathy probably does work—but only in the way placebos work—people took the medicine that supposedly had the "essence" of certain healing substance in it, and because they expected to feel better afterwards, they did. (Often, the substance supposedly doing the work would so diluted that the actual physical presence of that substance was reduced to zero, but homeopathy is fine with that because the "essence" can be transfered to the medicine even if there are zero parts per million of the substance that's supposedly curative).

It is, in every conceivable way, no different than drinking "magic potions" and expecting those to work.

As for real medicines that have gone by the wayside, you overstate things tremendously. *Some* medicines have been pulled for being dangerous. Many more medicines that made it to the market in the past 80 years (and before then I agree that there were a lot of bunk medicines mostly because the sorts of doctors ho invented them were of a non-scientific, often homeopathic, mindset) were replaced because they had side-effects and better medicines, that treat the same condition with fewer or more manageable side effects were discovered. Other times alterative medicines were developed because certain people have severe negative reactions to a given drug, so alternatives were needed for those people.

I would not say that homeopathy and folk medicine had no good effects though. Some of the folk remedies they relied on turned out to have some merit and were incorporated into modern scientific medicine and were generally made more effective in the process. Aspirin itself may be a form of that, as some used to prepare willow bark in a way that supposedly treated headaches, and willow bark does contain some acetylsalicylic acid.

The stuff that had no value was by and larged looked at and discarded. "Allopathic" medicine is not per se *opposed* to homeopathy, so long as there is evidence that it works. That proof, shown in repeated trials of the treatment, is that mark of "science." If homeopathy showed incontrovertible success in such tests, then the effective treatments would drift over into modern, scientific medicine (which is what "allopathic medicine" really is).

I understand that you feel that homeopathy is better, but such a feeling is not a useful scientific criteria. I understand that you feel that because homeopathy uses natural substances that it must be "safer", but most poisons that are naturally occurring substances. Posons have also been around for many, many millennia, and artificial poisons only about 150 years. "Natural" does not mean "safe" and it certainly does not mean effective.

Again, though, to the extent you or anyone else feels that you have a natural and effective treatment for an ailment, you are fee to research it, test it, publish your findings, wait for others to test it in the same way as other science is tested. If you are right, "allopathy" will gladly embrace your findings. Scientists are generally cool like that.
 
Nancy please speak to me. ! I have some efficacious holy water for you. It remembers when Jesus walked on it.
 
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I think you people are all too narrow minded. East Korea has been using homeopathic medicine for centuries. And you wouldn't believe the cost savings you get from idiopathic mortality. It really clears hospital beds.
 
By ultra dilution, you also get no delivery. This is absurd beyond absurdity. Reduce allopathic (fine choice of terms by the homeopathic industry, BTW) dosage and hey! presto! Less drugs.
The micro doses of homeopathy produces mega results.
 
Thank you for defining science for me. Now all you have to do is proce your poinbt as any scientist would be expected to do. For a start, explain how it has been determined that water has a memory.
So you agree with the defination of Science from the dictionary. That proves homeopathy is not pseudo science. It's a rational science
 
A correct diagnosis is essential in any form of treatment. I hope the vital informtion was passed on to other doctors who failed to diagnose the disorder.

As for your " cure", I believe it would be irresponsibleto treat someone with any medical condition without the treatment having been shown to be effective in double-blind trials. I would make an exception in the case of anyone who had a terminal illness and who was willingto be a guinea pig.
It seems that you define "double-blind" as when you close both of your eyes. Come on. you got to do better than that
 
Can you please answer my question concerning how it has been scientifically established that water has a memory. You remember saying homeopathe is a science ?

All you are offering at the moment is anecdoital evidence. How many people have been " treated" who did not respond. How do you explain in scientific terms the response you claim you got ? The chemistry involved ?

There is no dearth of herbs and whatnots. So what ? What is your point.

Please stop avoiding the issue and answer my questions if you wish to be taken seriously. You are the one claiming homeopathy has a scientific basis. Les's have some evidence !
Anecdotal evedince is the real evidence,an evidence of millions of patients worldwide. How can you ignore so many voices? Not hearing them is an insult to the patients of homeopathy. Not a evidence written in some lines in some journals read by just few thousands of people worldwide.

Surgery does not pass double blind test, so can we assume it to be a fraud
 
Your results may seem quite real (and obviously I wish you well in your own quest for wellness), but on average homeopathy represents placebo medication, for the obvious reasons:
Millions of people swear by homeopathy because they have personally benefited from it. Now if you tell them it is not scientific because it does not pass double blind test, he will ask you what is double blind? What is lancet? what is scientific?

You can not replace their cure which they themselves have undergone by your false propganda that homeopathy does not work, however hard you try.
 
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