Where will you go when you die...?

[Woody]

Kotoko said:

When God will forgive you and let you into heaven if you ask for forgiveness and believe in him, where is your personal responsiblity

But I have to confess every bit of it before I can be forgiven. That means I have to admit I was wrong and then apologize.

You don't have to do a thing when you do wrong. Do you like apologizing?

What kind of God would place so many demands and strict rules on his followers when he cannot and does not follow those rules.

The same God that gave you and me an alternative to all that: Jesus. Love fulfills the law completely, and it (the rules) are no longer needed where love is in control.

What kind of God would stone someone to death for being gay?

The same God that would send any unrepentant sinner to hell -- gay or straight.

If God so loved the world, why is he so hell bent on dividing it?

He's separating the wheat from the chaff.

All religious Gods comes from the same ideal, and it's all crap.

How many of them came to earth to live with us and then die for us?

What kind of God does not look out for all of mankind but just those who follow him?

I guess they never asked for his help.

 

[Kotoko]

Where is the logic in ANY of your responses?

 

[stretched]

No Kotoko, Jesus is logic MANIFEST. Formal logic is the devils work.

 

[Woody]

Where is the logic in ANY of your responses?

In the bible. Proverbs are quite logical.

 

[Woody]

You're not called Pascal, by any chance?

Pascal and La Place may have been great mathmaticians, but I don't think they were much in the philosophy department. La Place's "demon" for example is God. Does infinite knowledge make someone evil and eliminate their will? I don't think so.

 

[Sarkus]

Pascal and La Place may have been great mathmaticians, but I don't think they were much in the philosophy department. La Place's "demon" for example is God. Does infinite knowledge make someone evil and eliminate their will? I don't think so.

Then why give a classic example of Pascal's Wager? http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

 

[The Devil Inside]

How many of them came to earth to live with us and then die for us?

hmm.....quite a few, actually. pretty much the entire ancient nordic gods..."wotan, thor, freya"...prometheus (although he didnt really die, he was to be eaten alive constantly for all of eternity), pretty much all the "die/rebirth" religions have one.

 

[duendy]

hmm.....quite a few, actually. pretty much the entire ancient nordic gods..."wotan, thor, freya"...prometheus (although he didnt really die, he was to be eaten alive constantly for all of eternity), pretty much all the "die/rebirth" religions have one.

'eaten alive' is the vegetation god being eaten alifve......CRUNCH, ahhhh eternity in a grain of sand....anyone?

 

[Woody]

Then why give a classic example of Pascal's Wager? http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

I never thought of myself as Pascal. I just call the thought process plain old common sense.

Likewise for La Place's quantum mechanics, I call it "Woody's childhood paradox" that perplexed me when I was 5 years old. However, I outgrew it pretty quickly when I figured that everything in the past is automatically deterministic -- which nobody can change. But present and future are changeable regardless of what God or anyone else "knows."

 

[Sarkus]

I never thought of myself as Pascal. I just call the thought process plain old common sense.

Unfortunately it is an outmoded thought process and devoid of common sense in a number of areas - the prime of which, for me, is that it requires a finite probability to the existence of God in the first place.
Since no evidence of God has ever come to light, this assumption is flawed.

Second is how one can rationally expect to "believe" in the existence of something when one knows one is only doing so to basically hedge one's bets.

You're playing a game - a wager (hence the name given to the idea).
Surely, if a God exists, he would realise this and know that you only claimed to believe as part of a wager - and are in fact no better than someone who didn't believe - but at least the non-believer stuck to their convictions and didn't just believe for the sake of a reward.

So this leads down the path of what type of God would accept as true believers those who only claimed to "believe" due to Pascal's wager.
If this God is going to accept anyone who does follow the wager route, then surely they'll accept anyone who lives the same lifestyle without the actual claim of belief that the wagerers demonstrate, since this God would realise that neither the atheist nor the wagerer actually have a true belief.

Pascal's wager is thus flawed - as it leads to a God that doesn't care about belief in him.

 

[Woody]

Unfortunately it is an outmoded thought process and devoid of common sense in a number of areas - the prime of which, for me, is that it requires a finite probability to the existence of God in the first place.
Since no evidence of God has ever come to light, this assumption is flawed.

Second is how one can rationally expect to "believe" in the existence of something when one knows one is only doing so to basically hedge one's bets.

Prove God doesn't exist, and you will be the first to do so.

You're playing a game - a wager (hence the name given to the idea).
Surely, if a God exists, he would realise this and know that you only claimed to believe as part of a wager - and are in fact no better than someone who didn't believe - but at least the non-believer stuck to their convictions and didn't just believe for the sake of a reward.

Maybes don't cut it with faith -- hence you are only playing a game. But the game will end some day and you must decide whether you are "all in" or not. Partly in is not all in.

So this leads down the path of what type of God would accept as true believers those who only claimed to "believe" due to Pascal's wager.
If this God is going to accept anyone who does follow the wager route, then surely they'll accept anyone who lives the same lifestyle without the actual claim of belief that the wagerers demonstrate, since this God would realise that neither the atheist nor the wagerer actually have a true belief.

God doesn't take a half-hearted believer to heaven. Even the devils believe God exists and they tremble at the thought. (James 2:19). Acknowledging that God exists is not "faith." The devils are promised a place in hell.

Pascal's wager is thus flawed - as it leads to a God that doesn't care about belief in him.

I must admit that I haven't studied Pascal's wager in depth. The point is that you must, in your own lifetime, rule out any possibility that God exists, because even the slightest chance that he does exist has an infinite pay-off or penalty associated with it.

If you decide God exists, then which religion is real and which ones are fake? If you believe in a false God you are as bad off as someone that doesn't believe at all, and perhaps even worse off.

 

[(Q)]

In the bible. Proverbs are quite logical.

How is this logical?

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

 

[daktaklakpak]

Before I consider dying, I am 100% sure that the carbon atoms made up of me had been used by countless men, animals, plants, bugs, and microbes before I was born. And after I am dead, parts of me might end up on some else's body in the future.

 

[c7ityi_]

Before I consider dying, I am 100% sure that the carbon atoms made up of me had been used by countless men, animals, plants, bugs, and microbes before I was born. And after I am dead, parts of me might end up on some else's body in the future.

someone else's? "we" are all the same existence: "i"... omnipresent consciousness.

never have i seen a self been born...

 

[Sarkus]

Prove God doesn't exist, and you will be the first to do so.

No need to prove something doesn't exist - onus of proof is on the person making the claim.

The point is that you must, in your own lifetime, rule out any possibility that God exists, because even the slightest chance that he does exist has an infinite pay-off or penalty associated with it.

This is not true - as I am fairly sure that I shall go to my grave not having a belief that God exists, but knowing that there is no proof of non-existence. I will remain open to the possibility, however remote, but will not have a belief.

If you decide God exists, then which religion is real and which ones are fake? If you believe in a false God you are as bad off as someone that doesn't believe at all, and perhaps even worse off.

So your possible afterlife could well be reserved only for Joe Bloggs down the street who has created his oen religion with membership of ONE? Interesting.

 

[Woody]

How is this logical?

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

The logic is perfect when "knowledge" is considered to be an understanding of God.

The second half of the proverb you selected is quite understandable to anyone, perhaps another proverb will explain (Prov 15:5):

A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

A son that rebels is a fool, and he despises anyone that tells him what he ought to do.

The first half of the proverb you selected makes no sense at all to you because you do not "fear" the Lord. "Fear" used in this context means reverence. An unbeliever can not show reverence for God, but will consider faith to be foolishness:

I Cor 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The logic is perfect when "knowledge" is considered to be an understanding of God.

 

[Woody]

No need to prove something doesn't exist - onus of proof is on the person making the claim.

After you die it's a little late to be wrong.

This is not true - as I am fairly sure that I shall go to my grave not having a belief that God exists, but knowing that there is no proof of non-existence. I will remain open to the possibility, however remote, but will not have a belief.

You will have no choice after you die.

So your possible afterlife could well be reserved only for Joe Bloggs down the street who has created his oen religion with membership of ONE? Interesting.

It really doesn't matter what Joe creates -- He isn't God.