When Is Jesus Coming?

Be glad Star... not gals...

No, I won't even continue wasting my time reading through it (in detail)... I invite some other Christian to expose the deceitful twisting of the rest of it... so there you have it Star... quote by quote... now deny the substance of my replies will you? It's such a joke that I can't even continue with it... you obviously didn't read it... and whoever the author is, that person is either one deceitful futher mocker or they know nothing of Christianity... for some verses... as I repeatedly stated before... the thing is read completely out of context... and some verses are even misrepresented. Deceitful load of s**t. Be glad you didn't provide all the info for it. That would be embarrassing to say the least after all that spouting... Tell me if I'm wrong will you?
 
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These are concepts brought about by changes in society. Religion will change and has changed to accomodate new ideas. Too bad revalation was the last book of the bible, or we might of had the gospel of Luke Skywalker, the Matrix Triology, and the Chronicles of Riddick added to the Bible.

Give it time . . . :cool:
 
MarcAC said:
No, I won't even continue wasting my time reading through it (in detail)... I invite some other Christian to expose the deceitful twisting of the rest of it... so there you have it Star... quote by quote... now deny the substance of my replies will you? It's such a joke that I can't even continue with it... you obviously didn't read it... and whoever the author is, that person is either one deceitful futher mocker or they know nothing of Christianity... for some verses... as I repeatedly stated before... the thing is read completely out of context... and some verses are even misrepresented. Deceitful load of s**t. Be gals you didn't provide all the info for it. The would be embarrassing to say the least after all that spouting... Tell me if I'm wrong will you?

OK, OK.

You have said the same thing over and over for pages now. And I have asked of you for pages and pages now.

I have two questions for you, to which everyone here is my witness:

1) Can you show me ANY contextual evidence whatsoever to corroborate your claim that Jesus' statements were meant to be allegorical?

2) Can you quote portions from my post FULLY explaining for everyone following this discussion why my interpretation is devoid of proper context?

---

As for me not writing the essay in the first place, you are dearly mistaken. I found the inspiration for expounding on that topic upon reading the original article and the majority of analysis in there is MINE ALONE. I only copied and pasted certain quotations referenced in the original article which I believed might reinforce my argument.
 
Southstar,

The literal meaning of the out of context quote "...this generation shall not pass..."
means the generation that sees the sign of the 2nd coming. Immediately preceding this misquoted text is the parable of the fig tree which to summarize tells of how when a fig trees branches sprout leaves you know that summer is near. Verily, I say unto you this generation...

To continue to claim or assume that Jesus was refering to the generation of around 70 AD means that you ignore the parable of the fig tree, and you ignore the following verses expalaining that only the Father knows when Jesus will return.

Does this pass your burden of proof or am I simply wasting my time?

Although I must say that debating these points generally doesn't go anywhere, as you are unlikely to convince me of anything new that I would agree with, nor am I likely to convince you of anything new that you're likely to agree with. It all comes down to your personal beliefs and how you define the truth for yourself. No one is going to be able to persuade you or I of anything different.
 
//sigh

Did you read the post at all? Take this excerpt:

--
Even the Christian theologian Dewey M. Beegle says:
"Most conservatives reject the plain meaning of the passage, "This generation shall not pass away until all these things take place," because it means admitting that Jesus was mistaken about the time. The issue is intensified because Jesus added, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away" [Mat 24:35; Mk 13:31; Lk 21:33]. All attempts to reinterpret "generation" are armchair approaches to solve our difficulty in understanding the passage. As [previously] noted, the clear-cut testimony of the rest of the New Testament is that the disciples, Paul, and the early church understood Jesus literally. If Jesus really referred to events more than 2000 years in the future, then he was playing word games with his disciples. When we look at the problem honestly there are two basic options: either Jesus was leading his disciples to think something different from what he had in mind, or he was mistaken. The latter is far more preferable because it was done in innocence and shows his true humanity."
--


You twist the text to mean that His inspired apostles were inconceivably stupid and managed to somehow unanimously interpret it alternatively.

And again:

--
Christian apologists have tried to sub-divide the context of this prediction, making, "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place," refer only to the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and not also to "the coming of the Son of Man." They ignore the fact that Jesus' "this generation" prediction is preceded in all three gospels by Jesus' discussion of the "coming of the Son of Man" and intimately linked with it, contextually. Such apologists also ignore that Jesus said, "all these things," and divert attention to Jesus' other saying (which appears a few verses after Jesus' long disproved prediction), that "no man knows the day or the hour." However, they forget that "days and hours" imply nearness in time. "Days and hours" lie within a "generation." As Strauss pointed out over a century ago:
--

And again:
--
[Naturally there is a distinction] between an inexact indication of the space of time, beyond which the event will not be deferred (a "generation"), and the determination of the precise date and time (the "day and the hour") at which it will occur; the former Jesus gives, the latter he declares himself unable to give.
--

Albeit the preceding quotations adequately address this objection, I will give it special attention:
The literal meaning of the out of context quote "...this generation shall not pass..."
means the generation that sees the sign of the 2nd coming. Immediately preceding this misquoted text is the parable of the fig tree which to summarize tells of how when a fig trees branches sprout leaves you know that summer is near. Verily, I say unto you this generation...

---
Furthermore, having admitted that he did not know the precise "day or the hour," Jesus continued to address his listeners as though that "day or hour" could not be further than a mere "generation" away:

Therefore be on the alert, for you [his listeners, circa 30 A.D.] do not know which day your Lord is coming...at an hour when you do not think he will [Mat 24:36,42,44]
---

It is rather interesting that you only addressed this verse and then accused me of misquoting Him. You first assume that "you know that summer is near." refers to a later generation. I challenge you to corroborate your claim by presenting for us all any contextual evidence whatsoever that Jesus was not speaking directly to His audience. If you can do so, then you will most likely win me over to your viewpoint. Ironically, your allegation that Jesus referred to the generation that sees the sign of the second coming is bashed by the same context which shows Jesus resuming His dialogue:

44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

This is perhaps the most telling statement. Either Jesus was a despicable liar and was deluding His audience with impossible dreams by saying this, or He really was addressing this to specifically to them in honesty.

I am especially baffled by the nature of your interjections since they have been adequately addressed in the original post.
 
SouthStar,
Try reading all of Mathew chapter 24(for now) and then let me know what you really think. Don't rely on whatever website you are copying and pasting from to form your opinion or to back it up. I'll even summarize what I read:

Mathew 24:1-2 This tells of the destruction of the temple.
3: His disciples ask when and what is the sign of His coming and the end of the world.
4-13: He talks of false prohets, wars and rumors of wars, and to let no one decieve you.
14-20: Tells of the destruction and doom of Jeresulem
21-24: Again talks about false prophets, which sets up
25-26: don't be decieved. If they say I am in the desert; don't go
27-28: ...As lightning comes out of the east and shines in the west so will my coming be, further explained by wherever the carcass is so will the eagles be gathered.
29-31: Immediately after this tribulation, the sign of Jesus returning will happen, and his angels will go forth and He will gather together his elect. (for further reading enlightenment and explanation refer to Revelation chapter 6 and 7) My own thoughts regarding the refered to tribulation is a reference of the apostasy.
32-33: The parable of the fig tree, which seems self explanatory. This also seems to be convienently ignored by whatever source you've been using.
34-35: Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fullfilled, heaven and earth will pass, but my words will not. Given that Jesus has not mentioned when the tribulations take place and then has talked about the sign of his coming and then segues into the parable of the fig tree, it baffles me that anyone could read into this that Jesus was talking about his disciples generation. especially when he continues with,
36: of that day and hour no one knows. Not the angels of heaven. Only my Father knows.
37-39 Using Noah and the ark, He gives an analogy as to what is meant.
40-41 using two be in the field and one will be taken and one will be left explains verse 38-39 in a little more depth.
42-44 A warning to watch for you don't know when your Lord returns using an analogy of a watchman and a thief. This also sets up his next statements to prepare yourself and be faithful.
44-51: Another analogy and consequences using a faithful servant and an evil servant. The faithful and wise servant will be blessed and will be rewarded. The evil servant will say in his heart my lord delays his coming, and will fall away, smiting his fellow servants and eating and drinking with the drunken. The lord of that servant will come in an hour that he is not aware of and will be cut assunder.


As I read this I have no impression that Jesus was only refering to his audience of around 70 AD. Given the examples and analogies being used it makes complete sense that He would use the word hour. Reading this quotes in context gives the impression (at least to me and possibly to others) That he has not specified any specific time as only God knows the exact time that His Son will return, not you not me, not anyone on this forum, not even Jesus himself knows, only God knows. It does make sense that he would instill a sense of urgency, especially since His sacrifice on the cross did away with the Mosaic Law, thus placing a greater emphasis on personal responsibility and faith rather than be absolved of all sin through offering up a burnt sacrifice.

And please don't take offense if you feel I've been accusing you of misquoting and taking things out of context. I don't know what you're thinking or how you've come to shape your beliefs. I just feel that if you're going to continue to use this source you've been using, it would be wise to stop, pause, reflect and actually read the passages in context. It does at least on the surface seem as though you're simply forming an opinion using a source that offers up explanations using half of what Jesus said and ignoring the other half. This source seems to be making what I consider to be media sound bites. {if that makes any sense =)}

Anyhow have a good day.
 
§outh§tar said:
As for me not writing the essay in the first place, you are dearly mistaken. I found the inspiration for expounding on that topic upon reading the original article and the majority of analysis in there is MINE ALONE. I only copied and pasted certain quotations referenced in the original article which I believed might reinforce my argument.
Who knows maybe your inspiration came from God after all, cause after reading (in detail) that... attempt of what(?)... my faith in The Coming of Jesus is even more confirmed. That's it from me for this thread. Send me a P.M. when you have some concrete arguments against The Coming, or when you can reply to my objections... no... corrections to your errors. I think Jesus will come before then.
 
People can believe whatever they want, what scares me about all this armaggedon talk is the likelyhood that they *WANT* it to come true and are willing to fuck up our world trying to make it happen! There have long been scary little articles here and there about the IdiotBoy (Bush) administration actually having Middle East policy meetings behind closed doors with Christian Evangalists present! So they might actually be making voodoo/supersition based decisions about our actions/inactions in the Middle East based on *their* particular religion and interpretation of that religion?! VERY scary!
 
Gravity said:
<sigh> Quoting from the Bible to ''prove'' something?

Quoting the Bible is a poor way to support or 'prove' anything in a comparative religion/logic discussion. Either the Bible is infallable - or its subjective (meaning knowing *which* interpretation is ''correct'' is completely impossible). So, if its infallable - here is a copy of the free pocket Bible guide from Cryptoclast.org:


Wow great find on the net...!!
 
For Gravity:

What harm can he do in four years?" That was my initial reaction to the Supreme Court's selection of George W. Bush in Dec. 2000, back when I was trusting and naïve and life in this country felt oh-so-different. "It’s not the end of the world," I thought, not realizing, at the time, how many Americans were praying for just that.

Initially, Armageddon angst was amusing, yet embarrassing, like VH1’s The Surreal Life whenever Brigitte Nielson appears onscreen. Remember when people saw Satan’s visage in the 9/11 smoke clouds? And how others kept tabs on the Rapture? A Time/CNN poll even showed that one third of all Americans were checking the news for apocalyptic signs, making "End Times Watch" a lot like "Cosmo’s Bedside Astrologer," except that instead of learning that Sagittarians are "whifty," we discovered that Jerry Falwell rightly refers to G.W. Bush as "his bitch."

the rest of article here

Godless.
 
Gravity said:
I recognize and respect those that want to use any religion/myth/belief for good means. Those who choose to interperet it thus. The problem is, for every Mother Theresa there is a David Koresh . . . and each was ''right'' as far as interpreting the Bible to support their beliefs.

We all see and read everything through the lenses of our experiences and understanding.

The Koran is no less full of loving writings than the Bible, and no less full of hateful writings than the Bible. And there are wonderful things being done by people based on those writings, and then again things like 9/11 happen on behalf of those writings.
Yes, indeed.... So maybe we should try to learn what is good in religion and encourage it and incorporate it. The rest.... right into garbage. :cool: :m:
 
§outh§tar said:
//sigh

Did you read the post at all? Take this excerpt:

--
Even the Christian theologian Dewey M. Beegle says:
"Most conservatives reject the plain meaning of the passage, "This generation shall not pass away until all these things take place," because it means admitting that Jesus was mistaken about the time. The issue is intensified because Jesus added, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away" [Mat 24:35; Mk 13:31; Lk 21:33]. All attempts to reinterpret "generation" are armchair approaches to solve our difficulty in understanding the passage. As [previously] noted, the clear-cut testimony of the rest of the New Testament is that the disciples, Paul, and the early church understood Jesus literally. If Jesus really referred to events more than 2000 years in the future, then he was playing word games with his disciples. When we look at the problem honestly there are two basic options: either Jesus was leading his disciples to think something different from what he had in mind, or he was mistaken. The latter is far more preferable because it was done in innocence and shows his true humanity."
--
This is brilliant. I'm proud of such a theologian.
However, I would like to comment on this:
" "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away" [Mat 24:35; Mk 13:31; Lk 21:33]. "
His words are still here, aren't they? We still "listen" to his words, don't we? So till now, they didn't "pass away". Do you understand my point?

44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

This is perhaps the most telling statement. Either Jesus was a despicable liar and was deluding His audience with impossible dreams by saying this, or He really was addressing this to specifically to them in honesty.
The later, I would say. Jesus clearly said he didn't know when it would happen. He even says that "only God in heavens is good" and "only the Father knows when the day is"...




About the whole generation thing, another thing that it could mean is if a generation is related to the galaxy. Like the "aquarious" era, or whatever. Each era takes about 2,000 years to complete (I forgot the exact number). There are twelve eras that are related to the zodiac. It takes about 24,000 years to make a whole turn around the galaxy. But that is just an idea. I don't know if that is really what he meant or not.
 
Before JESUS was crucified, HE said, "Behold, your house is left desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall NOT SEE ME henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord."

JESUS spoke these words to the nation of Israel, who were the chosen ones, "Therefore, say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt. 21:43). It grieves me that it will be as in the days of Noah. " They knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be" ( Matt. 24-39 ). --- "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, "STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE", ( whoso readeth, let him understand ) ( Matt. 24:14-15)

THE TIME HAS COME, but mankind wants to wait a little longer to allow and/or cause more violence, suffering, and destruction to the point of imminent annihilation ; WHY? My GOD, the ALPHA and OMEGA will wait until his people say, "Blessed is He that came in the name of the LORD" VIOLENCE will end one way, or another way. The best way to END VIOLENCE is to allow the Spirit of love to rule, the other way is to allow TOTAL DESTRUCTION, which will also END VIOLENCE. For some reason, people believe that nuclear weapons or other WMD are not going to used again. Using VIOLENCE with WMD against the enemy will insure VIOLENCE WILL END with TOTAL ANNIHILATION, but it is written, "for The Elect's sake those days shall be shortened." which means, for The Elect's sake the days of TOTAL ANNIHILATION will not come. JESUS said, "--- Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. ---." - (Matt.5:1-12) "With man this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" ( Matt. 19:26 )

--- " why call me LORD, LORD, and do not the things which I say?- ( Luke 6:46)
--- "Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two comandments hang all the law and the prophets."(Matt.:22:37-40).
--- "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I haved loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (John 13:34-35).
--- "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you ---" ( Matt.5:43-48 )
--- "Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you ---" ( Luke 6:27-38 )
--- "love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again: and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." ( Luke 6:27-38 )


The establishment of God's Kingdom on earth is the coming together in mind and purpose of all those that want for love to rule. The Kingdom of God is where love rules with righteoussness in every aspect of the human community, such as caring for your neighbour as you care for yourself, and being stewards (caretakers) of the earth and the ecosytem upon the earth. Can you imagine what the world would be like if love ruled in every aspect of the human community?

Peace be with you, Paul
 
Can you imagine what the world would be like if love ruled in every aspect of the human community?

That would be wonderful, too bad that Christianity, and other major beLIEfs as well are actually used much more often to *justify* division, hatred and violence.
 
Exactly. But it is not religion's fault, it's human's fault. Actually.... let me rephrase this. It is not God's fault, it is man's fault (religion was invented by men to explain God).....
 
Well, if there was an omniscient, omnipotent God. One that created us - or even just set the universe in motion (a Deistic type of God) -- and can also predict/see the future. Then it *would* be that God's fault.

But, its more likely indeed that everything is mans fault. Indeed, blaming "God'' for anything has about as much relevance to reality as blaming the Easter Bunny or Elves. :)
 
Maybe, but again. If its a God of love -- I would be setup for certain success, not a possibility of failure.
 
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