what stops you raping kids?

[Asguard]

Read only and bells maintain inspite of evidence to the contry that the only thing stoping people commiting crimes is the legal penelties. The fact that there actually is no evidence that being "tough on crime" actually works seems to have escaped both of them. The fact that the war on drugs has been a compleate failure, the fact that the death penelty does nothing to the murder rate. The fact that there were still homosexuals having homosexual sex even openly while there were laws against it seem to compeatly escape these 2.

So lets test this,

WHAT STOPS YOU RAPING KIDS?

The penelty or because its wrong?

The truth is that its peoples ETHICS which stop the world going to hell in a hand basket and we would have a better time if we abolished the criminal sysytem and moved to treat people and attempting to reingage people insted of punishing because punishing does NOTHING

 

[spidergoat]

It's the penalty that tells you society thinks it's wrong. If the culture were different, we might not think it's wrong. Technically, Mohammed raped a 9 year old, but that was a different culture.

 

[Bells]

Read only and bells maintain inspite of evidence to the contry that the only thing stoping people commiting crimes is the legal penelties.

No.

What we said is that people who commit negligent acts that results in the death and injury to people should face legal action. We also stated that companies and corporations have to follow the law and safety standards so that if something they produce injures someone, then they should face legal sanctions. I and I believe Read Only also stated that laws that govern organisations act as a deterrent to ensure they comply with safety standards, codes and regulations to ensure the public's safety and well being or face legal consequences. You were the one who started harping on about family farms and the farmer who didn't wash his hands after wiping the shit from his backside before handling commercial food products should not be punished because in your mind, that is acceptable behaviour and a mistake that should just be ignored. Even though the farm being investigated is an organisation and run like one. You have continuously made stuff up in that thread and tried to find every excuse possible to excuse behaviour that could very well be criminal due to its nature and effect on the general population.

Please stop misrepresenting what was said in that thread and stop lying.

I understand you have this inherent need to take flights of fancy and ignore what is written and only read and see what you assume people are saying. But this needs to stop.

WHAT STOPS YOU RAPING KIDS?

You, sir, are an idiot.

This is what you took out of that thread. Yet another lie and demand for something that was, in that thread, completely irrelevant and obscure. Because apparently, holding companies and producers to some sort of basic standard that protects society as a whole is tantamount to raping children.

 

[Asguard]

no bells what i said and what you either disagree with or cant understand is that the legal system doesnt work, its a joke. Legal santions dont work, companies think of them like they do tax and people either dont commit crimes because they wouldnt anyway OR dont care about the penelties. I understand this is challanging your very existance but im sorry, the criminal "justice" system should be abolished and the funding transfered into the mental health system.

 

[Bells]

no bells what i said and what you either disagree with or cant understand is that the legal system doesnt work, its a joke. Legal santions dont work, companies think of them like they do tax and people either dont commit crimes because they wouldnt anyway OR dont care about the penelties. I understand this is challanging your very existance but im sorry, the criminal "justice" system should be abolished and the funding transfered into the mental health system.

Because every individual and corporation that commits a crime is mentally ill?

Lets say someone enters your home and steals everything you own because they simply wanted to upgrade their stuff and didn't have the funds to buy it. You do not consider that individual a criminal and you would not expect that person to face legal sanction for their actions against you? What if they entered your house while you were out working and they find your other half sleeping in the house and they rape her? What if they are not mentally ill. You'd *shrug* and tell your other half that well, she should just suck it up because apparently, these things just happen and that it's "understandable"?

I think I understand your sudden aversion to the criminal justice system. You supposedly work as a paramedic? It is quite probable that you fear that someone will sue you or you may find yourself in the midst of a criminal investigation because you misread a label or made a mistake because you failed to listen to what your patient was telling you or because the doctor was unable to decipher what you had written and then reported. And frankly, after your performance in this thread, the other thread and this forum of late where you simply have failed to understand even basic language, arguments and the issues at hand, that is not an impossibility. Which I understand would challenge your very existence.

 

[Asguard]

nope that doesnt phase me in the least, thats why there is public liablity insurance, to pay the lawyers.

You still havent answered the basic question

What stops you from raping kids bells. Its not that hard a question

 

[Bells]

nope that doesnt phase me in the least, thats why there is public liablity insurance, to pay the lawyers.

You still havent answered the basic question

What stops you from raping kids bells. Its not that hard a question

Because it is wrong and illegal.. One tends to follow the other.

If something causes harm to another, then it is wrong and in most societies that has even a minute amount of civilisation, it will usually be against the rules. Even in the most primitive societies, there are rules in place and breach of said rules would have resulted in tribal laws and punishment..

Get where I am going with this?

 

[Asguard]

Because it is wrong and illegal.. One tends to follow the other.

If something causes harm to another, then it is wrong and in most societies that has even a minute amount of civilisation, it will usually be against the rules. Even in the most primitive societies, there are rules in place and breach of said rules would have resulted in tribal laws and punishment..

Get where I am going with this?

so in other words its not the penelty which stops you but your own moral code.

 

[Bells]

so in other words its not the penelty which stops you but your own moral code.

But not everyone thinks like me, do they?

Not everyone has the same or even similar "moral codes". There are some in society who think it is acceptable to have sex with children and they are not mentally ill.

So tell me, what would you do with such individuals? Lock them up in a mental institution anyway? If someone rapes your child, you'd comfort them and yourself by telling them that their rapists are not criminals?

 

[Bells]

I think a more pertinent question that you should answer is this..

Do you think child rape is a criminal offense? Do you think it is a crime to rape a child?

 

[Asguard]

what would be the point bells? and besides that who said they arnt mentally ill? The US seems to think so because they have civil commitment into the mental health system so basically what makes someone mentally ill?

A disconection to sociaty seems to fit the bill pritty well.

Bells previously "crime" was belived to be caused by demons, the philosophy behind the criminal system is nothing but another hypothisis and to be quite honest its one which has failed compleatly. The revisitation rates are steady across vertually all countries no matter WHAT the penelties are so basically punishment doesnt work. So lets try treatment for a change insted of this "tough on crime" bullshit you hear from people like Mike Rann, hell the last NSW election both sides delibratly DIDNT go with a tough on crime platform because they both realised that they had pushed it to the limit and still crime happens in NSW. So unless your solution is summery excution for all crimes people will just keep repeating and jails CERTAINLY arn't the way to stop them. Its pure idocy to belive that people thrown into a cage for years on end are going to come out in anyway shape or form connected to sociaty. Thats what needs to be fixed, the connection. If you cant get that, you cant get empathy, if you cant get empathy then you will have reoffending.

The war on drugs has been a compleat failure as FR pointed out, YOU should know the deterent value of the death penelty is zero, homosexuals still existed and still had sex inspite of laws forbiding it. I dont know how you can be so blind that you put your faith in a system which has no EVIDENCE to its efficasy. Every other goverment program has to have an evidence backing yet the AG department doges this why? Because it doesnt work. Hell even the police and the criminal system itself knows this, thats why there are diversion programs because they know that no matter what, once in the criminal system people dont become reconected (treated, rehabilitated, whatever you want to call it), they become LESS conected to sociaty and there for MORE likly to comit crime.

 

[Bells]

what would be the point bells?

The same could be said for this thread..

Do you think child rape is a criminal offense?

Do you think it is a crime to rape a child?

I am surprised you are unable or unwilling to answer this very simple question.

and besides that who said they arnt mentally ill?

Do you have proof that they are all mentally ill?

After all, it is your argument and stance in this discussion that the criminal justice system should be abolished and all funds from sayd system should be diverted to the mental health system. God knows what you plan to do with people who speed, drink and drive, cause accidents, harm people by their actions, commit domestic violence or mistreat animals, rob or destroy people's property - common crimes today - if you seem to feel that there should be no criminal justice system. Declare them mentally ill as well?

The US seems to think so because they have civil commitment into the mental health system so basically what makes someone mentally ill?

Well according to you, anyone who appears to have committed what is deemed a crime today as per the criminal justice system.

A disconection to sociaty seems to fit the bill pritty well.

So if I want your TV and can't buy one of my own and I decide to just enter your property and take it, I am disconnected from society?

Bells previously "crime" was belived to be caused by demons, the philosophy behind the criminal system is nothing but another hypothisis and to be quite honest its one which has failed compleatly.

And in the past, homosexuality was deemed a mental illness...

Do you think everyone who commits what is currently deemed a crime, mentally ill?

The revisitation rates are steady across vertually all countries no matter WHAT the penelties are so basically punishment doesnt work.

So they have to be mentally ill?

Are you telling me that anyone who does not share your core values regarding sex with children, theft, respect for people's property, etc, is mentally ill instead of a criminal if they rape your child or steal or destroy your property (for example?)?

So lets try treatment for a change insted of this "tough on crime" bullshit you hear from people like Mike Rann, hell the last NSW election both sides delibratly DIDNT go with a tough on crime platform because they both realised that they had pushed it to the limit and still crime happens in NSW.

Better to lock them up in mental institutions instead because no one is a criminal, just mentally ill?

So unless your solution is summery excution for all crimes people will just keep repeating and jails CERTAINLY arn't the way to stop them.

Where did I say that was my solution?

Can you link that please? You seem to attribute many things to me Asguard, all without proof. So cite your sources or shut the fuck up.

Its pure idocy to belive that people thrown into a cage for years on end are going to come out in anyway shape or form connected to sociaty. Thats what needs to be fixed, the connection. If you cant get that, you cant get empathy, if you cant get empathy then you will have reoffending.

Hmmm..

So do you have proof that everyone who rapes a child is mentally ill?

Please cite them.

The war on drugs has been a compleat failure as FR pointed out, YOU should know the deterent value of the death penelty is zero, homosexuals still existed and still had sex inspite of laws forbiding it.

But your solution would be to treat homosexuals as being mentally ill, if the law deemed it a criminal offense. The law does not deem it a criminal offense because the law recognised that consentual sex between adults is not a crime. Do you understand the difference? The war on drugs failed because it targetted mostly the day to day drug users, with dealers and the big time suppliers going largely ignored. There are many solutions to the drug problem, and that amounts mostly to it being treated not as a mental illness, but by making the dealers irrelevant.

I dont know how you can be so blind that you put your faith in a system which has no EVIDENCE to its efficasy.

As compared to yours which treats everyone who has committed what is now deemed a crime to be mentally ill?

Every other goverment program has to have an evidence backing yet the AG department doges this why? Because it doesnt work.

But you seem to believe that treating anyone and everyone who commits a crime is mentally ill will work?

Hell even the police and the criminal system itself knows this, thats why there are diversion programs because they know that no matter what, once in the criminal system people dont become reconected (treated, rehabilitated, whatever you want to call it), they become LESS conected to sociaty and there for MORE likly to comit crime.

So your solution is to abolish the system entirely (and yes, that will include the police) and instead put all funding into the mental health system. I guess then instead you'd have ambos like yourself policing people to make sure they are not .. err.. mentally ill.

 

[Asguard]

do you have proof the statice quo works?

didnt think so

 

[Bells]

do you have proof the statice quo works?

didnt think so

You can't even back up your claims that all who rape children are mentally ill. Nor can you back up that getting rid of the criminal justice system and putting all the frunds from that into the mental health system in its entirety would be beneficial. Not to mention that you can't even prove that all criminals are mentally ill (since you are the one claiming that the criminal justice system should be abolished and all the funds given to the mental health system - harping on about recidivism rates (at least, I think that was the word you meant to type) and how treating them for their mental illness was more benefitial - I could go on...

You have yet to prove any of the points you are making in this thread.

You can't even answer if you think raping a child is a crime.

So you can take you "didn't think so" and shove it until you cite some proof of your claims.

 

[chimpkin]

Child sexual abusers are NOT mentally ill.

They lack empathy.

They do what they do in several ways...they either have no empathy at all, therefore are sociopathic...

And I suppose an active variant of that is the sadistic person who enjoys inflicting humiliation, agony, and terror on the child...

Or they project their desires onto the child, saying "The child wants it," working to cause arousal in the child, not realizing that if they cause that arousal that produces a profoundly deeper degree of damage.

Or they minimize the damage, thinking "Oh, he/she won't remember." Or " Ah, it's harmless."
No. To the child, someone, usually a trusted adult, is doing something that is tortuously painful and really enjoying doing it.

But they all stem from an inability to empathize with a child and a child's needs.

None of it has anything to do with mental illness.

Moral impairment does not equal mentally ill.

So to answer the question, I may be mentally ill, but I am not morally impaired. I work hard not to hurt people.

And you really should think about some of the things you say, Asgard. This isn't academic for everybody.

 

[Anti-Flag]

WHAT STOPS YOU RAPING KIDS?

They run too fast.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Because it is wrong and illegal.. One tends to follow the other.

If something causes harm to another, then it is wrong and in most societies that has even a minute amount of civilisation, it will usually be against the rules. Even in the most primitive societies, there are rules in place and breach of said rules would have resulted in tribal laws and punishment..

Get where I am going with this?

Neither Bells. You don't rape kids because you have neither the desire, inclination, nor disposition. You make it sound as if the only reason why someone does something or doesn't do something is based on the law; in some cases this is true so for example there may be more petty theft if it wasn't illegal but raping and murdering children is a different type of crime committed by a different kind of individual. Someone who steals from a store for example has a particular motive that's monetary or they just want 'stuff' and the act has little to do with a lack of conscience or power. Someone who enjoys raping and killing does so because they can, I mean internally they can, without guilt or care which extends to disregard for what other's think is 'wrong' or what society deems illegal. The legal system doesn't work as a deterrent for these folks, what it does do is keep them away from society to which they would continue to do harm. Asguard's argument is bollocks of course but you cannot claim you do not rape children simply because its wrong and illegal. Your statement suggests you would be very willing to rape children if you it were somehow legal and other's didn't think it wrong or simply didn't care when in reality you never had the thought nor inclination.

 

[cosmictraveler]

The problem is also incest and that's very hard to get the children to come forward to say something to authorities that their parents have done to them. Picking on children only shows that people can't get along with others their own ages to get what they want.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Child sexual abusers are NOT mentally ill.

They lack empathy.

They do what they do in several ways...they either have no empathy at all, therefore are sociopathic...

And I suppose an active variant of that is the sadistic person who enjoys inflicting humiliation, agony, and terror on the child...

Or they project their desires onto the child, saying "The child wants it," working to cause arousal in the child, not realizing that if they cause that arousal that produces a profoundly deeper degree of damage.

Or they minimize the damage, thinking "Oh, he/she won't remember." Or " Ah, it's harmless."
No. To the child, someone, usually a trusted adult, is doing something that is tortuously painful and really enjoying doing it.

But they all stem from an inability to empathize with a child and a child's needs.

None of it has anything to do with mental illness.

Moral impairment does not equal mentally ill.

So to answer the question, I may be mentally ill, but I am not morally impaired. I work hard not to hurt people.

And you really should think about some of the things you say, Asgard. This isn't academic for everybody.

I agree with you but its like banging ones head up against the wall around here to get across the difference between a psychopath, sociopath and someone who is mentally ill. There are too many people who don't understand that there are others who legitimately do not feel anything at all for others outside of their own narcissistic needs.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Let's go to the dictionary.

psychopath [ˈsaɪkəʊˌpæθ] (Collins)
n
(Psychiatry) a person afflicted with a personality disorder characterized by a tendency to commit antisocial and sometimes violent acts and a failure to feel guilt for such acts Also called sociopath

psychopathy [saɪˈkɒpəθɪ](Collins)
n Psychiatry
1. (Psychiatry) another name for psychopathic personality
2. (Psychiatry) any mental disorder or disease

Sociopathy (From Wiki)
is a loosely-defined term that may be used to refer to:

Psychopathy
Antisocial personality disorder
Dissocial personality disorder

People on this thread seem to think that there are widely accepted definitions.
Not the Case.