What or whom do atheists posit as their highest authority?

Yorda,

Did the noachic flood occur due to rain? Yes, it did. The bible is extremely clear on this.

Did it cover every mountain top? Yes, it did. The bible is extremely clear on this.

Did it cover the entire world? Yes, it did. The bible is extremely clear on this.

Did it rain for 40 days, 24 hours a day (40 days and nights)? Yes, it did. The bible is extremely clear on this.

The peak of Mt. Everest is 29,035 ft above sea level. For a 1 inch square rain column to reach that height in 40 days it would have to rain:

29035 / (40 x 24) = 30.2 feet (362.4 inches) per hour.

This is 362.4/5 = 72 times the heaviest rainfalls recorded. In fact, it wouldn't be rain but a pressurized stream of water. The ark would have been destroyed in seconds.

Besides, this is physically impossible. The bible is wrong.

And Yorda,

How could a volume of water sufficient to cover the entire earth to a depth of 29,000 feet come from a tiny desert area of the earth?

---------------------
Sources:

http://www.southalabama.edu/geography/fearn/480page/99Taylor/Taylor.htm

http://weathermaine.com/Davis/Educate/Rain.htm
 
superluminal said:
Did it rain for 40 days, 24 hours a day (40 days and nights)? Yes, it did. The bible is extremely clear on this.

The number 40 means "eternity" in the Bible. It isn't a literal number. Neither is eternity literal. Hell is said to be eternal for example. Neither is thousand years always "1000" years.

In fact, it wouldn't be rain but a pressurized stream of water. The ark would have been destroyed in seconds.

The "it-covered-the-whole-earth" isn't literal either. It is natural to use absolute words like "whole" without exactly meaning that. The Bible isn't a history book with literally correct information.

It indeed wasn't ordinary rain. And at times, it was like a pressurized stream of water. But the sons of God (like Noah and Gilgamesh) had devices in their boats which always held them in balance. The boats were locked from all sides. No water could come inside them. The boats also had resistance against radiation which go through matter. When the flood occured, the sons of God were already a long way from the epicenter of the catastrophe (which was somewhere in Africa, probably a great part of the land sank into the sea)

To understand many things on earth you have to understand something about the evolution of earth.

A very long time ago there lived a very different human race on earth. They followed the law of the spirit fully. Their consciousness was on a divine state and they expressed God (the real self) on earth without mixing it with bodily properties (like egoism) The "spirit" wasn't shadowed by bodily lusts. In their divine purity, they truly deserved the name: sons of God.

This highly developed race knew all the secrets of nature and since they also knew their own powers, and ruled over them, they could control them. Their knowledge had no boundaries. They didn't have to gain their food with hard physical work. They let the laws of nature do the work.

They knew all the laws of nature, the secrets of energy, and also their own being. They knew how energy is transformed to matter and reversed. They had equipment by which they could store all the powers of nature and also their own spiritual powers (two of these equipment were preserved, the staff of life and the other, which was was later to be called the Ark of the Covenant) They could neutralize the attraction of the earth and dematerialize (which means to convert it into another energy form) surfaces of stones, so that they could carve them as if they were made of butter. This is probably how the things at Baalbek were made. Although, at that time, I don't think the original sons of God lived anymore.

These people were not only great in wisdom and love but they also had a greater physical size than us. The Bible and other religious scripts mentions giants. I guess they could have been about 3 meters tall.

At the time when they were still on earth, our human race didn't exist, but there was another very primitive human race (maybe Neanderthals). Spiritually bored, they completely unified with their body. They lived in the woods, fighting against nature, each other and animals. The giant people (also called the sons of God, nephilim and anak) had children with these primitive humans and these two races blended into the human race of today. Logically, only the male giants had children with them.

(due to natural laws of inheritance, a member of the great race has to be born on earth at defined intervals, even at the darkest times. He will show mankind the way out of darkness and pain)

A few of these primitive humans inherited some of the spiritual knowledge from their father's side, but also the egoistic nature from their mother's side (some only inherited their size, like Goliat in the Bible) When the original giants had already long ago vanished from earth, some of our race (anakim, the son of man) sneaked into the temples and stole the powerful equipment from the sons of God. In the hands of egoistic people, they caused the flood.

The descendants who inherited the elongated head, and all the spiritual abilities and "magical" knowledge from their fathers side, knew that the "black magicians" (people who use inner powers egoistically; like if you use speech to do evil to someone for personal gain) would lead to their doom, and that the flood would come from that, so they fled from that country into 4 directions. They ruled as kings over the primitive humans (like sumerians and aztecs) and teached them mathematics, astrology, astronomy, and generally about life and love.

This is why the king and princess is always chosen from the family, because they were supposed to have "royal" (or divine) blood in their veins. Of course, this is no longer true. No one today has elongated heads or are 3 meters tall. But still, some of the "giants" can be detected among us by our inner "gifts" (like Jesus, Moses, Socrates, Hermes, Tesla etc)

Wherever the sons of God set their foot, a great culture emerged. In some cultures they were honored and in other cultures, where people were not ready to accept their knowledge, they were treated badly and killed.

How could a volume of water sufficient to cover the entire earth to a depth of 29,000 feet come from a tiny desert area of the earth?

It wasn't just a little desert. And like I said, it wasn't a desert at that time (5000-6000 years ago). The entire continent transformed into radiation energy, ascended up to the outmost layer of the atmosphere and then came back, in almost all kinds of basic energy forms. It wasn't just water, but also much sand and mud. The continents on the other sides of earth were ripped apart from this incredible event. The partly destroyed continent has been preserved as a great desert in the land which is now called Africa.
 
Dude, I don't know one other person in existence that talks as much utter fucking bollocks as you do. You truly are one of a kind.
 
Water,

water said:
Can we be aware of anything without interpretation?

I don't know... and for anything to exist, interpretation is not necessary.

water said:
It is essentially about a person's honesty. That is between the person and God. There is no supportive evidence of a person's honesty. They might be good players.

This parapgraph made no sense. Can ellaboration be provided?

water said:
That was, and still is, mixing politics and religion.

I don't think they are the seperate entities that you are implying them to be.

water said:
If they have faith in a fantasy, then this is surely likely to create a lot of problems, and it also has so far.

I agree.
 
water said:
What or whom do atheists posit as their highest authority?
my gut, :D
when it speaks,you better feed it.
if you dont ,you die,its that simple.
your imaginary sky faries pail in comparison,and are totaly irrelevant to your survival.
 
I wouldn't be so quick to bash Yorda,

Some very interesting observations can be made by examining her behavior.
 
superluminal said:
Yorda's a she?

And such as?

I've seen Yorda being referred to as 'her' without correction... but I
supposed Yorda could be a guy as well. Anyhow there is evidence to
suggest that Yorda has multiple personality disorder and possibly some
other other psychological challenges as well. Observing his/her assertions
and emotional reactions provides almosr unique insights to the process
of 'belief' as Yorda's misalignment with reality is extreme (likely to the
point where mundane every-day contradictions are ignored or applied
to cognitive dissonance).
 
Take a look at Yorda's posting history in general. It takes a little patience,
but there are some psychological gems out there. It's really fascinating.
 
superluminal said:
Interesting. I've been horribly confused by his/her posts lately. That would explain much...

Sometimes Yorda's a she and sometimes Yorda's a he..

Hehehe
 
SnakeLord,



Q, as you will undoubtedly know, the religious types are very quick to spill their: "you must search for god" garbage - generally without indicating that it happens to be the hardest search imagineable. One can lift up every universal pebble and still find no sign of this being that loves his humans oh so much. Then, as you will know, they say you're not searching the right way.. you have to really open your heart to it etc.

The search is hard because of a man's pride and denial. These are the ones so hard, and sometimes impossible, to overcome.


Many people have told me that in order to find God, one must seek him. To me this has always seemed somewhat a bizarre notion. The world’s most powerful, and arguably the world’s most loving being, and he resorts to hiding in the shadows. This being that many would claim is the source of light, seems more comfortable in the darkness, in the void where man cannot reach.

If you start out thinking that God is hard to find, even that He hides, then you won't easily find Him.
First ask yourself -- Why do you think that God is hiding?
Do you think God is someone worth finding, or not?


However, I came to the conclusion that God is somewhat similar to Bigfoot. Three hundred years Bigfoot has roamed this planet, and yet he has only been seen a dozen times. Those of us who truly seek Bigfoot must truly search for him.

You don’t just wake up one day and find Bigfoot, so there’s no reason to believe God would be any different.

This is an unwarranted conclusion.


And so eventually I found myself searching: I looked under the sofa, I shuffled through the closet, and I picked up every rock that lay in my garden for sign of this being. I bought a submarine and explored the depths of the ocean, I stole the Hubble Space Telescope to view the depths of the big black expanse above us, and I purchased a dune buggy that was on special offer in Toys R Us to search the arid desert regions. All of this ended up in futility, and having explored this planet and beyond to an extreme degree, I couldn’t even find a molecule going by the name of God.

If you went about your search with so little seriousness, then the results of that search were also lacking seriousness.


You would be amazed at how sobering the death of a son can be. You would be amazed at how many questions scurry through your mind like ants on a summer night. You would be amazed at how much you need answers. There was no anger, which comes later in the process, just a general lack of understanding. I asked the doctors, and they gave me an explanation. I asked the priest who also gave me an explanation. I asked the rabbi, the philosopher, the Buddhist, the man who painted my fence and the woman at the bus stop. All of them gave me an answer. As you will know, no human is perfect, and yet they all answered me. The one being that is perfect declined from comment. What does this say of perfection?

Did you ever think God worthy of listening to?


When I really sought an answer, everyone helped. God hid. When I really needed help, everyone tried their best, even with all their imperfections. God hid.

Did you find God worth trusting and obeying?

If you didn't find God worth trusting and obeying, then what on earth were you doing asking Him for help??!!


I would of course dare one man to say I was not humble.

I think you were humbled. But you did not have the humility to find God worthy of listening to and trusting.


God just crawled further into the void.

How do you know it was God who crawled further into the void?? You didn't even know God at that point, so how can you say He crawled further into the void?

In sorrow, some people become very selfish and deaf and numb to everything but what they allow to come through the wall they have build around themselves.
You did not allow for God. You allowed for a certain image you had of God, but you did not allow God be as He is.


It was incredible to see all the people that came to me. They did not ask that I seek them and they did not ask that I must find or want them. They came to me without asking, and simply out of love and out of kindness.

Did you *need* God then?


I have the feeling that eventually I will meet God and ask him why he wasn’t there when I needed him most.

Are you honest?


To this he will undoubtedly respond: “Nobody’s perfect”.

You keep on answering your questions yourself. Do you even want that God would answer you? Do you find it worth to listen to Him?


* * *


(Q),


You have "pointed" to nothing at all. You just admitted you didn't know.

I have pointed to some things that you can do.
Why are you discussing about God? What is your motivation for this?


What were they willing to find? God or just a comfortable illusion?

I just said the were looking for god, please pay attention and stop acting dumb.

It is an essential question.
Were they indeed looking for the One who has created the universe and to Whom all beings are made to serve?


Yes, I know, you just said that above and I asked how and you said you didn't know. Please stop repeating yourself and answer the questions posed to you or shut the fuck up!

Pray. Speak as you would to a person. Say what you want.

I suggest you find a pastor or priest whom you can speak with face to face, in real time; this time-delayed communication is exasperating.
If you can't find anyone in your area, let me know and we'll find a way for you.


* * *

Yorda,


We are always slaves to something or someone.

It's unfair that god made us that way.

Why is it unfair?
Serving God is easy, and beneficient for you. Serving your pleasures, or money, or fame, or people etc. -- this is hard, and wears you out.


It's unfair that he made us dumb.

??
We're not dumb; we become dumb when we serve other things, not God.
 
Pitiful mortals! I'm not afraid of my infinity like you are (although you are also parts of the infinite self). In my language, there is no "he" or "she". It is unnecessary to have different names for male and female since they are both still the same humans. My land is the land in North, because the first face of God is "North" (like fire, lion, red, love, etc.)

Truly I tell you, there is no difference between the negative and positive, except in your small minds. When you go up a hill, it goes up, but when you reach the top it goes down. Up and down are illusions created by our mind and "gravity". Similarly, everything is illusional, and seems to exist only because we have separated ourselves (inside) from the rest of the world (outside). There is no outside or inside. Everything that is visible exists only because it has been separated from its complementary half.

So the universe (manifestation of the mind/God/nothingness) exists only because you love your persons and defend them. This way, you restrict your infinite evolution. If people would stop defending their personalities, they would quickly feel infinite. But people choose to evolve slowly. Consciousness is like matter, it restricts us from falling back into the paradisical prime state.

I'll tell you something about the "self" of all things (God). In "God", the negative and positive are in balance, so they do not exist. The male and female are the negative and positive (though illusional) manifestations of God. So the negative and positive seeks each other only because they miss God (unification). The males do not realize that the female is within them and the females do not realize that the male is within them. If they found their complementary half inside themselves they would be both male and female which means that they would be neither male or female (divine). Since if you mix black and white colors together, they both disappear.

Information is only possible by separating (natural relativity). When you speak, silence is invisible. It is impossible to both speak and be silent at the same time. Two things can't be on the same space and time in the "material" world. But in the consciousness, it is possible to be "both" (neither) male and female Because people identify themselves with their body, they unify with them (they think they are their body)

In the consciousness it is fully possible to have infinite personalities (no personality). A personality is a reflection of the body, a consequence of the unification with our body. In other words, people have certain personalities because they think they are a body.

How is God like a "person"? A personality means that you are limited. So God must have all personalities, which means that he has no personality. This is what God is like. He is impersonal. It has nothing to do with "multiple personality disorders". God has infinite personalities, and a human who has become a god-man is like God. All knowing and all powerful. For instance, Jesus didn't have a personality.

But a person (reflection of the body) cannot be all knowing or all powerful. If you think you are, you are insane. Only the self can be all powerful and all knowing and omnipresent and so on. And when you realize that you are everything, you are nothing.

water said:
We're not dumb; we become dumb when we serve other things, not God.

You have to be dumb to serve other things than God, right? So indeed, God made us dumb.
 
Crunchy Cat,



Can we be aware of anything without interpretation?

I don't know... and for anything to exist, interpretation is not necessary.

Exactly.


It is essentially about a person's honesty. That is between the person and God. There is no supportive evidence of a person's honesty. They might be good players.

This parapgraph made no sense. Can ellaboration be provided?

What exactly is there that you don't understand?

A person's honesty cannot be proven by other people. A person may be a good player, and so other people will think this person honest, while said person is in fact plotting against them.

In order to have faith in God, one must be honest to God and to himself.


That was, and still is, mixing politics and religion.

I don't think they are the seperate entities that you are implying them to be.

They are not separate inasmuch as they both deal with how people interact with one another. But they are separate in their aims and in whom they posit as the highest authority: In politics, the highest authority is a president, a leader, who ideally represents worldly law, and the aims are economical and territorial interests. In religion, the highest authority is God, and the aim is to serve Him.


* * *


Anyhow there is evidence to
suggest that Yorda has multiple personality disorder and possibly some
other other psychological challenges as well. Observing his/her assertions
and emotional reactions provides almosr unique insights to the process
of 'belief' as Yorda's misalignment with reality is extreme (likely to the
point where mundane every-day contradictions are ignored or applied
to cognitive dissonance).

Only a terribly bored and uncreative mind would say a thing like that.
First of all, you do not know Yorda in person, and so you do not know whether what you get to read here in her/his posts is in alignment with who he/she is.

It is unwarranted to assume that everyone is himself or herself here; I hope you have noticed there were at least a few examples of socio-psychological experiments here. And people bit.

(Even Superluminal came up with the idea somewhere that I am doing all this as part of my thesis for school.)
 
water said:
It is unwarranted to assume that everyone is himself or herself here;

What does it mean to be "yourself"? I think people are more themselves here than normally since this is kind of an anonymous place. You know that people used to walk in the desert. Jesus did that, and John the Baptist. It was because they wanted to be with themselves, so that they would find their true self (God). "We are the temples of God." "The kingdom of God is within us."

A certain proverb goes something like this: "When you are with honored people, be as though you were alone, and when you are alone, be as though you were with honored people." That way, you will soon be yourself no matter if you are with people or if you are alone.

A personality is indeed a limitation, set by the body. Picture yourself in a place where there is no one but you. Like a desert. How would you be after a time? What would you think? What kind of a "person" would you be? Would you wear a mask or would you show your true face? Would you hide yourself? Would you be honest?

In reality, it is the same self within all people. There is no real separation. The separation is created by our mind. When we are with people, we fall in love with our person and forget our true nature, which is identical with God (the truth).
 
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Water,

water said:
Crunchy Cat,

Exactly.

Then we are in agreement and the definition of reality I asserted still holds.

water said:
What exactly is there that you don't understand?

Relevance and coherency of the original post.

water said:
A person's honesty cannot be proven by other people. A person may be a good player, and so other people will think this person honest, while said person is in fact plotting against them.

Overall honesty would be challenging to prove. Instances of honesty can
be very provable. If I claim to have eaten 500 jelly beans in one sitting and
show a video of myself eating every last one then I have proven an instance
of honesty that can be used for future prediction.

water said:
In order to have faith in God, one must be honest to God and to himself.

What is 'God' and where is it? It seems that to be honest with 'someone',
communication is necessary.

water said:
They are not separate inasmuch as they both deal with how people interact with one another. But they are separate in their aims and in whom they posit as the highest authority: In politics, the highest authority is a president, a leader, who ideally represents worldly law, and the aims are economical and territorial interests. In religion, the highest authority is God, and the aim is to serve Him.

Politics IS all about how people interact with each other and the differences
asserted that religion has are not true. There is an economy to pay for sin
and territory interest resides in people per belief, land, and after-death
residence.

water said:
Only a terribly bored and uncreative mind would say a thing like that.
First of all, you do not know Yorda in person, and so you do not know whether what you get to read here in her/his posts is in alignment with who he/she is.

It is unwarranted to assume that everyone is himself or herself here; I hope you have noticed there were at least a few examples of socio-psychological experiments here. And people bit.

(Even Superluminal came up with the idea somewhere that I am doing all this as part of my thesis for school.)

The person behind the 'belief' / behavior is not a concern for me.
 
Yorda,

When I said "It is unwarranted to assume that everyone is himself or herself here" I meant that there are people conducting socio-psychological experiments and sock puppets here.
Sure, those people are being themselves even so. But someone not knowing that a poster has multiple accounts, will not establish this poster's indentity (since we don't know which "parts fit together").
 
Indeed...

There are people with multiple accounts on this forum...

But what you don't know is that they are all ME...

It's just YOU and ME here...

No one else.
 
The search is hard because of a man's pride and denial. These are the ones so hard, and sometimes impossible, to overcome.

What do pride and denial have to do with anything? Fuck, I deny the existence of bigfoot, but if he exists my denial wouldn't mean anything.. he'd still walk up and chew on my arm. But I guess that's the difference between something that does not love humanity and something that supposedly does.

Your statement is very typical of the religious, but is so plainly dumb it's not really worth the attention it's given. Let's say though in the context of the story that A) I had no pride left at all, and B) had no denial whatsoever. What's your next excuse Water? What nonsense will you conjure up now to help defend your gods absolute and total absence?

If you start out thinking that God is hard to find, even that He hides, then you won't easily find Him.

Well I guess you'd have to watch your son die to even be in a position to say what you "start out thinking".

First ask yourself -- Why do you think that God is hiding?

I guess you might not have realised, but the story has been written after the event, not before it. Having tried during a moment of real need, god was nowhere to be found. That equals hiding.

Do you think God is someone worth finding, or not?

If you didn't notice, I'm an atheist. There is no such being. If you asked me "did" I think god was someone worth finding, then sure.. at that time.

This is an unwarranted conclusion.

How so?

If you went about your search with so little seriousness, then the results of that search were also lacking seriousness.

Water, perhaps you didn't notice, but this is a story written long after the events. Any "lack of seriousness" that might be portrayed in it come from way after the events, not before or during.

Did you ever think God worthy of listening to?

Certainly. I wouldn't have called out to it otherwise.

Did you find God worth trusting and obeying?

I think you're going away from the point here. But then, I didn't realise trying to get into contact with god required a 10 page questionnaire and a lifetime of former servitude. There is my point in many ways - that you need to go through more than someone whos applied for MI5 just to arrange a meeting with this being you would have us believe is all loving. Utter idiocy Water, nothing more.

As it's clearly so fucking impossible to achieve, how about you write me a guide book, listing all emotions I need to somehow prevent, etc etc etc..

But you did not have the humility to find God worthy of listening to and trusting.

Strange, you don't know me at all and yet think you can tell me how I was or was not? And further than that think you can talk on behalf of god and what he will or will not accept?

Your statement has been pulled out from your ass. Kindly put it back there, it's starting to smell.

How do you know it was God who crawled further into the void?? You didn't even know God at that point, so how can you say He crawled further into the void?

It's a story designed to make a point. Your question isn't really relevant, other than to serve as a debate against my writing style. But the answer really lies in the fact that the story has been written after the events, and you clearly establish it as the case. Originally one would have said all you need to do is sit down and sincerely ask if it's there and it will come to you. Now it's turned into a giant fucking exam. That would qualify as crawling further into the void.

In sorrow, some people become very selfish and deaf and numb to everything but what they allow to come through the wall they have build around themselves.

Where does sorrow come into it? Oh I'm sorry, you think "sorrow" is what you go through when you see your son die? But other than that what are you saying? That the only way to find god, should your son die, is not to be upset just incase you put up a wall that god cannot penetrate? Just incase you happen to fall into "selfishness"? Lol.. piss off.

You class that as all-loving?

{god} Bah fuck that guy, he's got sorrow.. I refuse to go see him!

You did not allow for God

Once again speaking for me. Should I perhaps just stop typing and let you make my posts for me? You don't know shit pal, that's a fact.

You allowed for a certain image you had of God, but you did not allow God be as He is.

Who would I be to allow or disallow god anything?

But hey, let's add this to Water's god guide.. To find god you also need to have the 100% accurate image of what or who it is, even though you wouldn't fucking know because you've never seen this being before. Oh and don't be sad, it doesn't have time for sad people.

Did you *need* God then?

Then? Certainly. I just thank you for asking this time instead of feeling you can give the answer on my behalf.

Are you honest?

Certainly. I, like everyone else, have the ability to tell lies - but I generally opt for honesty.

You keep on answering your questions yourself.

Wtf? You keep answering your questions for me.

{water} Did you trust god?

{water} No you didn't.

{snake} wtf?

Perhaps you missed it, but what I provided was a story - written long after the events, (7 years) - not written prior to them or by a guy who cares, believes or wants/needs to believe now.

Do you even want that God would answer you? Do you find it worth to listen to Him?

Back then certainly. What's your next excuse?
 
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