SolusCado,
Here is the bottom line on this part. We have evidence that primitive socieites had varying ideas of god(s) and they trypically were based on that which was around them, the types of animals etc
We have no evidence that there was a singular idea that started it all, as opposed to starting wherever man was.
So the burden is on you to prove the claim that it all started with one concept and that it changed. The evidence shows that it was each to it's own.
Actually, there is no burden of evidence on me at all, as I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, or prove anything to anyone. I believe this started with you attempting to force me to contradict myself, which you have not yet done.
I believe you are confusing faith in something with the genesis of something. I did not invent the idea, so it is not I that "created God".
Well, I was certainly brought up in an environment that taught the existence of God, but I didn't truly believe until one day, during prayer, and I suddenly had an epiphany (I believe it was God speaking to me), where I immediately had all fears and anxieties disappear (and for good - I have felt neither in the roughly twenty years since), and one verse in particular stood out for me (regarding everything happening according to the will of God) as something that affected everything around me. Since then, virtually everything I have ever experienced in life seems perfectly described by Biblical scriptures and teachings, and even the more I learn in other disciplines (such as evolutionary psychology, cosmology, astrophysics, etc.), the more I find these things to be true.
No imagination. Most kids create all sorts of monsters in their minds. I used to be scared of this really tall black stick like creature I was sure existed in our back yard, only at night of course.
Ha! No one has ever accused me of having no imagination. I obviously don't know you, but there are a whole lot of people I have watched for many years, and I have yet to see a truly original idea. To quote Isaac Newton, "If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants" ... Every idea in the history of mankind (speculative hyperbole, I realize) is in itself rooted in something else. I suspect there was at least one or two other factors in the stick-like creature you were sure existed.
If god exists outside of the universe and is supernatural, why does the workings of the universe matter ?
Matter? To what or whom?
Well, first you must understand that knowledge in this respect is effectively knowledge of an idea. We can "know" what red is by the descriptions given by others. Through comparisons to the real world, etc. ("A sunset is red"; "An apple is red"; etc. These statements help us better know what "red" is.) Likewise, the definition of who and what God is, according to any particular theology, is something that can be better understood by studying said theology. When said theology makes statements about how God interacts with people and the rest of the world, experiencing these things firsthand (just like seeing a sunset or apple) helps us to better "know God".[/QUOTE]
Well since you are claiming a belief in god then you are claiming to know that god created the universe, otherwise you don't know what you believe.
See above. I know what I believe because I understand the idea that is the core of my beliefs. I also recognize that I don't know for a fact these things to be true. I in fact "believe" them. Honestly, the statement that claiming belief in a god is claiming to know that god created the universe is absolutely ridiculous. The sentence structure alone fails logical analysis. It would be like saying that because I believe x is greater than y, then I am claiming to know x = 6. The statement makes absolutely zero sense.
Why doesn't it make sense ? Didn't christians believe that god was sitting in the clouds within our atmostphere at one point. Seriously, you guys just keep moving the goal posts to keep up with science.
I refer you back to my last post, and to something I have said many times before, and something that SHOULD be clear to anyone. If one believes God created "everything", then as that "everything" is further defined, our understanding of what God created is further defined. It was ALWAYS understood that God "resided beyond" His creation. We just didn't know what all that creation entailed. As scientific discovery has expanded that knowledge, so too has our understanding of where "God resides" further expanded.
Explain to me why spacetime is important to whether or not we have freewill.
Honestly, it took more than someone writing a post in a thread for me to fully understand it, so I don't think I can properly educate you on the matter myself. I will however try to do so in very simple terms.
If free will is the ability to exercise choice over your actions,
And this choice is based on an action to be taken,
Then the choice can only be made prior to the action.
If the universe exists in a timeless state,
Then your actions have already been made,
And any choice cannot be made prior to any action.
If free will is the ability to exercise a choice prior to an action,
But spacetime is such that choices cannot be made prior to actions,
Then spacetime makes the timeline of choice/action to be moot.
This of course applies to the vantage point of God, who sees all of spacetime. It does not however apply to our vantage point, since we do in fact experience space/time. Thus, it is possible for us to make a choice prior to an action, but from an external vantage point the flow of a choice being made prior to an action is non-applicable.
The question is what difference does god make. If we don't need him for the universe to continue on it's way.
I never said that His existence did make a difference, so I certainly can't answer your question. While we're at it, don't bother asking me how pigs fly or hell freezes over. I won't have answers for those questions either.
You don't have an answer do you ?
Yes enlighten me. And explain how god can interact with us and why the need since according to you all was in place beforehand, oh and he exists outside of the universe and the universe maintains it's laws.
This should be good.
I tried in my comment above. If you still don't get it, I encourage you to read up on the subject separately from this thread.
Fair enough
Which is what I have been trying to explain. Without the evidence, why believe, why put a god in there when none is needed.
See above for my reasons as to why I do believe in not just a God, but Christianity in particular. My belief in God doesn't hinder my ability to gain knowledge in other areas, since I continue to refine my understanding of God as my knowledge of the boundaries of space and time are themselves changed. I didn't invent the idea of God, so I cannot address the notion of "putting a god in there where none is needed"; I can only explain how the current ideas fit quite nicely into everything else I see and understand about the world around me.
Why try to explain the unexplainable. Why support a notion that is not supportable.
The ability to support the notion that the Earth was round before we had ships that could navigate around the globe was nonexistent, until someone decided to try. Call it an imagination, call it insatiable curiosity, call it the human condition - call it "the way God made me"
. I try to explain the unexplainable because that's what makes life interesting. As I said above, I don't see how the notion that there is no God is any more or less supportable than the notion that there is. And sitting on the fence waiting for someone to prove something that cannot be proven hinders my ability to explore.
Any claim that it is will be met with prove it and you won't be able to.
That doesn't bother me. And thank goodness, it didn't bother those in the worlds of science upon whose shoulders Newton stood.
Look, I am sure you are a decent, nice and reasonable person, if you knew me you would know that I am as well. I am not questioning you because you believe, I am questioning the belief.
I want to be sure to point that out. I am not being judgemental about you as a person. I respect your opinions etc. I am trying to raise questions that challenge your positions.
The key is not to find that which supports, because in many cases that is easy, the key is to face that which contradicts and deal with it. That is the reality.
I appreciate your sentiment, and frankly, I share the desire. The difference is that I continue to refine my beliefs if and/or when contradictions arise, rather than simply abandom them.
