What is your belief regarding the existence of "God"?

[birch]

what i find absurd is the idea that you can't criticize a god but you can criticize it's creation and admit it's faulty. haha! that's just silly. it's basically the same thing because the creation would be a reflection of it's creator.

BUT anyways, fortunately or unfortunately, i don't believe in "a" god that created this universe. at most it is "a" creation when people are focusing on "what" created it and that "what" is the creation. by the way the structure or laws of the universe have meshed here, certain traits etc would have more overriding strength etc and those would automatically assume and 'be' in this context to be construed as god or of ultimate authority due to it's overriding power. but that has to do with the universe's structure as well as what it allows for, good or bad. i also think the universe is composed of elements and even opposing elements that are from an original source and these sources are not just one but a conglomeration. so in essence, though some elements have more power, there are as many 'gods' so to speak as there are differences. it's how the cookie crumbles here that gives some the arrogant presumption that god favors them (usually predators). it would be similar to how in one situation, it is more favorable to you and in another, it may be deadly. it is speculation on my part, but i also think there might be a place where the rules/laws of this universe are upside down somewhere else. but as for our reality and so in manifestation, there are contradictions, as well as enemies and distinction symbolized by heaven and hell. this not only indicates a primitive understanding of the recognition of the contradictions and opposition but there is a deep-seeded feeling and recognition of being compromised and in continuous struggle and that you just don't "really" belong here or something just doesn't seem quite right but you can't put your finger on it. maybe it's true. the idea that you may go to heaven or hell or whatever (a representation of the original) after this is over.

 

[spidergoat]

don't watch T.V. hmm..i think that puts you in the same category as those who don't have any tattoo's, piercings or shaved heads..(few and far between)

Oh, I watch TV programs, I just do my own programming. When I'm finished watching the show I downloaded, I turn it off. I have grown weary of being a passive consumer of everything that comes on TV, especially the commercials. I refuse to watch a commercial. I don't have any tattoos or piercings, either.

 

[spidergoat]

What's in that pipe?

jan.

Romulan :m:

 

[jpappl]

SolusCado,

You are positing an assumption without backing it up. The fact that every primitive society (from about 6000 years ago onward anyway) had beliefs in God/s is more easily believed to be the evolution of a single idea that spread and morphed as mankind spread out from a single point of origin. That still brings us back to a SINGLE locale for the 'invention' of God, and I still don't believe man was creative enough to come up with the idea on his own.

This is absolute nonsense. If this was the case, then all would be the same. But in fact, every primitive society had their own versions. And most worshipped animalistic and other natural forms in their belief system.

Here:

http://library.thinkquest.org/C004203/religion/main.htm

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab70

The bottom line, anywhere early man was, they created god or gods or goddesses. It was just a natural leap to make, they did not understand so they had to make something that would make sense of it all. Especially the dying part.

The evidence is against your position.

Since primitive man would have been familiar with the noises made from natural phenomena, such as trees or rocks falling, I think they would've more naturally assumed things like thunder and earthquakes to be the result of giant trees or rocks falling in the distance. Lighting would've no doubt looks like stars falling from the skies (and perhaps when they landed they would've caused the noise of thunder). These are of course speculations, but they all seem like a more reasonable deduction than the invention of the idea of a God or Gods.

No, they turned them into gods.

What caused the flood ? What caused the landslide to happen ?

They didn't know so they blamed the action on god and then set out to appease it so it wouldn't do it again.

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
You example is flawed. Is god possible to know or IOW provide evidence of. So unlike chasing theories and hypothesis about the universe and everntually determining the validity of such, with God, there can only be faith. Never can there be knowledge. ”

Agreed, and such is the basis for Christianity.

Right, but below you claim to know how it all works. There can be no knowledge of god.

All of your questions here represent a lack of knowledge of 4D spacetime. If God does save people from car crashes it was done when the universe was created, and no doubt done so in keeping with the laws of the universe that he created. You can choose because you don't know what your choice will be. There is no contradiction; it simply requires thinking about time differently than you do.

Do we have freewill or not ?

Does god save people from car crashes ?

You want to make my questions appear infantile but your very claim is that all is destined to be what it is going to be. We only have the appearance of having control and that it was all set in motion from the moment of creation.

So why can't you answer the question ?

I'll answer it for you. According to your statements. We have no control.

Here from you:

"See my statement above. The laws were created by God along with the rest of the universe, so His will would be manifested in His creation, through the laws he set in motion."

There is a f*cking contradiction. I have freewill. I make my own choices.

You can not know god, your idea of god is pure speculation.

There is no reason, none whatsoever to believe that you do not have freewill and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that you are doing things that were set in motion only by god from the beginning of creation.

I disagree. I think God would HAVE to be a separate entity that "lives" outside the universe. It is illogical to think that he created something he is part of.

No that is totally illogical. You're right.

backs up slowly gets ready to run

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
It is everything. So once we get to this point, there is no separation from reality as we know it. So there is no reason to believe in a separate entity anymore. Thus, no reason for god. ”

Sooo... I have not 'gotten to this point', but the statement "there is no reason for god" doesn't make any sense. If God exists, He exists. There may not be any reason in your life for my presense, or the presence of the phone sitting next to me right now, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

You aren't getting it.

The only way we can fit god in the universe is for the universe to be god. Everything in it and it is everything. In which case there is no separate entity and no need to believe in a separate entity.

Outside of that definition, you have a supernatural entity, like you said that lives outside of the universe.

So tell me how you know this supernatural entity that lives outside of our universe exists ?

I'm still waiting for a contradiction. Your statements above are only applicable in a universe where time unfolds and everything changes with each passing moment - which isn't the way our universe is constructed

Look from you:

Again, because God created the universe in the first place. His interaction is part of the creation itself

Is he part of it or outside it ?

But time is part of the creation as well, and so His interaction need not occur at any point beyond the initial creation.

The notion of "God being in control" is even a misnomer. Again, it assumes there is some movement or change over which he is exerting control. He already created it. Nothing moves. Nothing changes. We EXPERIENCE movement, change, and time because of the nature of our consciousness - and it is that same nature that gives us the freedom of choice; it's just that in the context of God's reality the choice has already been made, as he is not bound by the same sense of time that we are.

So tell me why we need to believe and worship a god. What's the point.

You realize that you are emphatically stating that you have no freewill.

You realize that according to your belief here, we are just a program on auto drive. All future events and past events were set in place by god, we have no control.

Also, there is no reason for god to interact with us at all. So what does that say to people like Lori and others who claim contact or interaction with god or a god ?

 

[SolusCado]

if it's not the way i or someone else wants it to be, then it says something about the creator or it doesn't care what we think. we can use any line of reasoning, can't we?

Why would the creator care what you think? The message coming from the Judeo-Christian worldview is that the world, the universe, was created according to God's will, and certain things work in certain ways. The Bible gives us a handbook for how to best operate within that universe.

furthermore, then why would it even expect love or devotion from everyone? if one has free will and the capacity to reject what they dislike or recognize what they dislike, then it is what it is, isn't it?

I can only assume you are referring to the Judaic law, and the insistence that the Jews love and worship only Jehovah? While I cannot speak for God, I could posit a guess that it was a necessary demand for the ongoing survival of the Jews at that point in time.

you don't realize that your statement is actually even more irrevelant besides being strange with it's misplaced insinuations, by even a theist. this is because even religion has problems with the way the world works and the people in it among myriad and countless other things. otherwise, there wouldn't be a bible as well as many religions pleading others to change or do. those things that are disagreed with is just not labeled as 'god'.

Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about here. Which statement? What insinuations?

the disposition meaning the continuation of good, right?

No, the disposition being a love for God and our fellow man.

do you think that me pointing out what i or someone disapproves of or dislikes about nature or life means that somehow i'm going to go out and rape or kill people or someone does not value love, honesty, truth, compassion etc in a world that is also full of the opposite? of course not.

Of course I don't. Did I say something that would indicate I did?

what someone values is different than what one may think of a concept of 'god'. after all, not everyone views nature or existence as being perfect or even moral and perhaps not even created by a 'god'. for many, we are just here and deal with it the best we can. realistically, that is what everyone ends up having to do religious or not. one thing is for sure, nature is inherently predatorial so that is the foundation, even if there are aspects of the opposite values that are dealing with this aspect in nature. the disposition regarding or towards some 'god' is irrevelant to me though it's relevant to a theist.

Honestly, I'm not seeing where your coming from or what you're getting at with this statement either. I don't disagree with any of these statements.

your positions seem to be fragmented (on purpose) to suit one argument after another.

Which statements? I am certainly not fragmenting anything on purpose. I have the feeling there is something you are imagining in your head that you are trying to argue, but I don't know what it is, and since I don't know what it is, my responses aren't in line with what you are expecting, and the whole conversation seems fragmented.

 

[SolusCado]

I find it to be the most natural thing someone would think. Since we, humans, build and make things, it would be very easy to imagine a greater being who built and made the world.

Children make up imaginary friends, fairies and monsters all the time.

Children do not make these things up in a vaccuum. Someone told them about this kind of fairy or that kind of monster. You and I may have to simply agree to disagree on this one, since there is no way either one of us can remove all of our background knowledge and put ourselves in the shoes of a person who has none.

 

[SolusCado]

OK - I can accept that somethings don't require proof. But omnipotent beings that exist outside the realm of space and time are not on that list.

Why not?

 

[SolusCado]

what i find absurd is the idea that you can't criticize a god but you can criticize it's creation and admit it's faulty. haha! that's just silly. it's basically the same thing because the creation would be a reflection of it's creator.

Quite true, but the ongoing theme in Christianity is that we don't know the will of said Creator. We don't know what he has in mind. The idea within Christianity is that the faults are necessary for a greater beauty. Just as mountaintops cannot exist without valleys, neither can great righteousness exist without great evil.

BUT anyways, fortunately or unfortunately, i don't believe in "a" god that created this universe. at most it is "a" creation when people are focusing on "what" created it and that "what" is the creation. by the way the structure or laws of the universe have meshed here, certain traits etc would have more overriding strength etc and those would automatically assume and 'be' in this context to be construed as god or of ultimate authority due to it's overriding power. but that has to do with the universe's structure as well as what it allows for, good or bad. i also think the universe is composed of elements and even opposing elements that are from an original source and these sources are not just one but a conglomeration. so in essence, though some elements have more power, there are as many 'gods' so to speak as there are differences. it's how the cookie crumbles here that gives some the arrogant presumption that god favors them (usually predators). it would be similar to how in one situation, it is more favorable to you and in another, it may be deadly. it is speculation on my part, but i also think there might be a place where the rules/laws of this universe are upside down somewhere else. but as for our reality and so in manifestation, there are contradictions, as well as enemies and distinction symbolized by heaven and hell. this not only indicates a primitive understanding of the recognition of the contradictions and opposition but there is a deep-seeded feeling and recognition of being compromised and in continuous struggle and that you just don't "really" belong here or something just doesn't seem quite right but you can't put your finger on it. maybe it's true. the idea that you may go to heaven or hell or whatever (a representation of the original) after this is over.

It seems to me that everything you just described could just as easily be the result of a Creator as not. The bigger challenge for me, in my mind, is how can there be anything at all that didn't originate from something. I realize that is a limitation of my own ability to perceive, based on the fact that we all live in a universe where EVERYTHING has some kind of beginning. And while that perception extends to God itself, I at least recognize that the very nature of "God" is that He/It does indeed exist outside the realm of time, so the very concept of a beginning wouldnt even apply to it. Still doesn't help me conceptualize, but at least there is a reason behind that inability.

 

[SolusCado]

This is absolute nonsense. If this was the case, then all would be the same. But in fact, every primitive society had their own versions. And most worshipped animalistic and other natural forms in their belief system.

Why on earth would they all be the same? Ever play the whisper game as a kid? Where one person whispers something to the person next to them, and so on, until you get to the end? Why would you exect ideas about god or gods to be any different?

No, they turned them into gods.

What caused the flood ? What caused the landslide to happen ?

They didn't know so they blamed the action on god and then set out to appease it so it wouldn't do it again.

These are things that occurred after the initial idea of God. The fact of the matter is that we cannot trace ANY ancient religions to an origin, so to assume they all had separate origins is gross speculation.

Right, but below you claim to know how it all works. There can be no knowledge of god.

What are you talking about?

Do we have freewill or not ?

Does god save people from car crashes ?

You want to make my questions appear infantile but your very claim is that all is destined to be what it is going to be. We only have the appearance of having control and that it was all set in motion from the moment of creation.

So why can't you answer the question ?

I am not trying to make your questions appear infantile. I am just saying that they are based in an assumption of reality that is not correct. The very notion of "destiny" is only applicable in a universe of unfolding time, which does not describe ours. Yes, we have free will. The appearance of control is sufficient to make it real. I don't know if God saves people from car crashes. But if he does, it would be indistinguishable from random "good luck".

There is a f*cking contradiction. I have freewill. I make my own choices.

Yes, of course you do. As do the rest of us. But in the bigger scheme of things, you've already made your choice - you just don't know what it is yet. It's probably too much to get into with this thread, but try reading up on Einstein/Minkowski and spacetime. Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos" explains things quite well.

You can not know god, your idea of god is pure speculation

I do not disagree with that.

There is no reason, none whatsoever to believe that you do not have freewill and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that you are doing things that were set in motion only by god from the beginning of creation.

See above. Again, your very understanding of free will is based on Newtonian physics. We don't need to invoke religion or the supernatural to understand it better.

The only way we can fit god in the universe is for the universe to be god. Everything in it and it is everything. In which case there is no separate entity and no need to believe in a separate entity.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What do you mean by fitting god into the universe? The best analogy I can think of to describe the relationship between God and the universe is to think of a painter and his painting. For well-known painters, you can tell when their paintings are theirs because of the characteristics of the painting themselves. In that way, the painter has imprinted something of himeself into the painting. The same can be said of any creation by men. Books, poems, etc. all reveal something about their creator. The idea among most theologies is the same for God and his creation.

So tell me how you know this supernatural entity that lives outside of our universe exists ?

I don't know, and never said that I did. In fact (and I've said this many times), the basis behind Christianity is that you CAN'T know and you must instead exercise faith.

Is he part of it or outside it ?

There is a difference between "him" and "his interaction". See above regarding writers and their works.

So tell me why we need to believe and worship a god. What's the point.

I'm not telling you that you do need to. Need to in order to accomplish what?

You realize that you are emphatically stating that you have no freewill.

I am emphatically stating that free will is illusory, but made "real" by that illusion. Kind of like a hologram. The object isn't really there, but the hologram is. Free will is the result of not knowing your future. Your future exists and is real, but by not being able to see it you are free to make your choices.

You realize that according to your belief here, we are just a program on auto drive. All future events and past events were set in place by god, we have no control.

Again, I don't have to invoke the element of God to show this to be true. Read up on special relativity and spacetime. All of time exists just as all of space exists. This has been experimentally proven and is taken into practical account with such things as GPS satellites.

Also, there is no reason for god to interact with us at all. So what does that say to people like Lori and others who claim contact or interaction with god or a god ?

Those of us who have experienced God in our lives have found a connection to the Creator through His creation. It is like being able to identify those specific types of strokes in a painting, or writing styles in a poem, or ideas in a book, that reveal those things to belong to their creator.

 

[gmilam]

Why not?

Why should it? I mean seriously, do you just take every ludicrous claim someone makes at face value?

 

[gmilam]

Children do not make these things up in a vaccuum. Someone told them about this kind of fairy or that kind of monster. You and I may have to simply agree to disagree on this one, since there is no way either one of us can remove all of our background knowledge and put ourselves in the shoes of a person who has none.

I guess I must be rare in that I actually remember being a child and remember how I felt and thought. Before the corpus callosum finishes forming around age 7, the brain has a difficult time communicating between the left hemisphere and the right one. Therefore it is difficult to tie cause and effect together. To a child, magic, monsters and fairies are all very real - they don't need anyone to tell them about them first.

 

[SolusCado]

Why should it? I mean seriously, do you just take every ludicrous claim someone makes at face value?

Certainly not, but because I have no way of disproving it, I can't NOT accept its possibility. With that said, as a Christian I find echos of its teachings throughout everything that occurs in life. The more I learn, the more I realize hjust ow much its teachings apply to the world around me, and the more conviction I have in my faith. I still recognize all the alternative points of view, including just pure randomness, but the alternative points of view do not strike me as any more or less likely than what I have chosen to believe.

 

[SolusCado]

I guess I must be rare in that I actually remember being a child and remember how I felt and thought. Before the corpus callosum finishes forming around age 7, the brain has a difficult time communicating between the left hemisphere and the right one. Therefore it is difficult to tie cause and effect together. To a child, magic, monsters and fairies are all very real - they don't need anyone to tell them about them first.

The very fact that children have a name to apply to the things in their imagination is evidence enough that they have been told about such things.

 

[jpappl]

SolusCado,

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
This is absolute nonsense. If this was the case, then all would be the same. But in fact, every primitive society had their own versions. And most worshipped animalistic and other natural forms in their belief system. ”

Why on earth would they all be the same? Ever play the whisper game as a kid? Where one person whispers something to the person next to them, and so on, until you get to the end? Why would you exect ideas about god or gods to be any different?

Contradiction. Your claim was that it came from one source, original idea of god where man needed help in creating the idea of god, implying that man was not capable of being that creative.

Yet faced with the fact that isolated primitive cultures created their own versions and many had nothing to do with worshipping a human appearing god you punt.

If I took a bunch of 2 year olds and stuck them on an island, and by the miracle of god they survived, they would make their own god. Guaranteed. That is just what people do when they don't know any better.

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
No, they turned them into gods.

What caused the flood ? What caused the landslide to happen ?

They didn't know so they blamed the action on god and then set out to appease it so it wouldn't do it again. ”

These are things that occurred after the initial idea of God. The fact of the matter is that we cannot trace ANY ancient religions to an origin, so to assume they all had separate origins is gross speculation.

No it's not. The speculation is yours. The evidence is against your position and you have zero evidence to support the one idea whispered over time.

Answer this, why does an isolated tribe on one island have totally different versions of gods then another isolated tribe 1000 miles away ?

Originally Posted by jpappl
Right, but below you claim to know how it all works. There can be no knowledge of god. ”

What are you talking about?

You claim to know how god works. You have clearly stated that god created the universe and all of our actions were set in place by god.

Is that not your claim ?

Yes, we have free will. The appearance of control is sufficient to make it real

My bold. The appearance ? Not good enough. Your still claiming we do not have control, we only have the appearance that we have control.

Remove the word appearance and your contradicting yourself.

Do we have control or not ?

I don't know if God saves people from car crashes. But if he does, it would be indistinguishable from random "good luck".

Right. So there is no reason to place god in there. There is no way to test for it. No reason whatsoever to believe in a god who saves people or takes people out. None.

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
There is a f*cking contradiction. I have freewill. I make my own choices. ”

Yes, of course you do. As do the rest of us. But in the bigger scheme of things, you've already made your choice - you just don't know what it is yet. It's probably too much to get into with this thread, but try reading up on Einstein/Minkowski and spacetime. Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos" explains things quite well.

Yes I do. And so do you. It is irrelevant what your theory is regarding god creating this or that because it is unimportant. Life goes on with it or without it. No reason to make up something. No reason for god.

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
You can not know god, your idea of god is pure speculation ”

I do not disagree with that.

Good. I am also speculating because these things are unknowable at this time. But I am coming from, if there is no reason to believe in something than why make something when none is needed. And what might that something be.

How can we ever know if there is a god, what kind of god that is and what it looks like, where it lives etc etc. We can not.

It's like trying to figure out what the first alien we encounter will be like.

So the best answer to something that we can not have any evidence of it's not there.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What do you mean by fitting god into the universe? The best analogy I can think of to describe the relationship between God and the universe is to think of a painter and his painting. For well-known painters, you can tell when their paintings are theirs because of the characteristics of the painting themselves. In that way, the painter has imprinted something of himeself into the painting. The same can be said of any creation by men. Books, poems, etc. all reveal something about their creator. The idea among most theologies is the same for God and his creation.

I am saying that to make it work within the laws it can only be considered to be everything and within everything. In that way it can operate within the laws, but also can not effect freewill in any way, it can not stop car crashes, it doesn't do bad or good etc etc and is such indistinquishable for reality itself, thus no need to consider it a separate entity.

I don't believe this myself, but it is the only way to fit it in the laws.

Otherwise, it is outside of the universe, which is what you believe. Yet you will not be able to explain how it can interact with us without breaking the laws. Anything that you offer is pure speculation on top of more speculation.

So tell me how you know this supernatural entity that lives outside of our universe exists ? ”

I don't know, and never said that I did. In fact (and I've said this many times), the basis behind Christianity is that you CAN'T know and you must instead exercise faith.

Correct.

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
Is he part of it or outside it ? ”

There is a difference between "him" and "his interaction". See above regarding writers and their works.

Using the laws, explain it to me please.

Originally Posted by jpappl
So tell me why we need to believe and worship a god. What's the point. ”

I'm not telling you that you do need to. Need to in order to accomplish what?

If in his creation everything that happens is already in place, why bother, it's going to happen whether or not I believe. Why believe in something that there is no evidence for either.

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
You realize that you are emphatically stating that you have no freewill. ”

I am emphatically stating that free will is illusory, but made "real" by that illusion. Kind of like a hologram. The object isn't really there, but the hologram is. Free will is the result of not knowing your future. Your future exists and is real, but by not being able to see it you are free to make your choices.

I understand. We don't have freewill, only the illusion. So again, what's the point.

Those of us who have experienced God in our lives have found a connection to the Creator through His creation. It is like being able to identify those specific types of strokes in a painting, or writing styles in a poem, or ideas in a book, that reveal those things to belong to their creator.

So why did god pause in his creation track to make contact or interact with a special few.

Please tell me what kind of interaction you had with the all mighty.

I am all ears.

And why bother at all. Since the path was already created. Why would god need to interact with anybody. Did he make a mistake along the way that he had to fix.

 

[gmilam]

Certainly not, but because I have no way of disproving it, I can't NOT accept its possibility. With that said, as a Christian I find echos of its teachings throughout everything that occurs in life. The more I learn, the more I realize hjust ow much its teachings apply to the world around me, and the more conviction I have in my faith. I still recognize all the alternative points of view, including just pure randomness, but the alternative points of view do not strike me as any more or less likely than what I have chosen to believe.

I accept the possibility. Having said that, I am always amazed when people say they can choose what to believe. My brain requires a little more evidence before it will believe.

 

[gmilam]

The very fact that children have a name to apply to the things in their imagination is evidence enough that they have been told about such things.

No, not really.

You're saying that man was, no, "IS" incapable of coming up with the idea of a god on his own. Therefore there must be one. Is man also incapable of coming up with the idea of space aliens on his own, therefore they must exist? What BS.

 

[Emil]

How can you prove "there is no god"? :scratchin:

 

[gmilam]

How can you prove "there is no god"? :scratchin:

The same way you can prove there aren't unicorns... you can't. But if someone's going to insist that there are unicorns (and more importantly, that these unicorns have determined how I should live my life) then I'm going to ask for something more than their word on it.

 

[spidergoat]

How can you prove "there is no god"? :scratchin:

Analyze what God is said to have done, and what he is said to do and see if there is any valid evidence for them.

 

[SolusCado]

Contradiction. Your claim was that it came from one source, original idea of god where man needed help in creating the idea of god, implying that man was not capable of being that creative.

Yet faced with the fact that isolated primitive cultures created their own versions and many had nothing to do with worshipping a human appearing god you punt.

This isnt a fact; it is a supposition, and one with no evidence at all as far as I can tell.

If I took a bunch of 2 year olds and stuck them on an island, and by the miracle of god they survived, they would make their own god. Guaranteed. That is just what people do when they don't know any better.

It would probably take God to ensure a bunch of two year olds left alone WOULD survive.

No it's not. The speculation is yours. The evidence is against your position and you have zero evidence to support the one idea whispered over time.

Answer this, why does an isolated tribe on one island have totally different versions of gods then another isolated tribe 1000 miles away ?

Agreed - both positions are speculation. We don't know. One makes more sense to me than the other. And dude - we have genetic evidence that we all came from a single point of origin. Are you suggesting that homo sapien evolved from multiple separate species?

You claim to know how god works. You have clearly stated that god created the universe and all of our actions were set in place by god.

No, I don't. In fact I have said several times that a core theme of Christianity is that we DON'T know how God works. I just know how the universe works, or at least as well as anyone else does. That's what science is for.

Is that not your claim ?

I claim to have a belief in a creator to our universe. Based on that belief, I can tell you how certain things would come about and relate to our universe. As my understanding of the universe grows and changes, so too do those relationships. I don't claim to KNOW anything.

My bold. The appearance ? Not good enough. Your still claiming we do not have control, we only have the appearance that we have control.

Remove the word appearance and your contradicting yourself.

Sure, change what I said and I am contradicting myself. But I didn't remove the word appearance, did I?

Do we have control or not ?

Hmm - I think I might disagree that "control" and "free will" are not the same thing. Perhaps that is why you think you see contradictions. In any case, you are still asking questions that only make sense in a universe where time unfolds. That does not describe our universe, so your questions are pointless hypotheticals.

Right. So there is no reason to place god in there. There is no way to test for it. No reason whatsoever to believe in a god who saves people or takes people out. None.

I never said there was.

Yes I do. And so do you. It is irrelevant what your theory is regarding god creating this or that because it is unimportant. Life goes on with it or without it. No reason to make up something. No reason for god.

I never said there was.

Good. I am also speculating because these things are unknowable at this time. But I am coming from, if there is no reason to believe in something than why make something when none is needed. And what might that something be.

How can we ever know if there is a god, what kind of god that is and what it looks like, where it lives etc etc. We can not.

It's like trying to figure out what the first alien we encounter will be like.

So the best answer to something that we can not have any evidence of it's not there.

If we applied that logic to everything, we would never have had reason to challenge the idea that the Earth was not flat, that we weren't at the center of the universe, or that the Milky Way wasn't the only galaxy. In any case, my faith is based not on my own inventions, but on the ideas presented long before anything else we know today. I believe in something that made sense thousands of years ago, and to this day isn't challenged by anything we have learned since. Just because I never placed my hand in the fire when my parents told me it would burn me is no reason for me to now challenge that statement and stick my hand in the fire. Even if it didn't burn me, what purpose would be served in doing it? Just to prove that I know better than my parents? I'm not that childish. IOW, I know that I might be wrong about the presence of a God, and for all the reasons you have pointed out for not believing in God, I just don't care (if I'm wrong).

I am saying that to make it work within the laws it can only be considered to be everything and within everything. In that way it can operate within the laws, but also can not effect freewill in any way, it can not stop car crashes, it doesn't do bad or good etc etc and is such indistinquishable for reality itself, thus no need to consider it a separate entity.

You are still basing your entire worldview on Newtonian physics. I can't continue having this conversation with you until you brush up on our modern undstanding of the universe.

If in his creation everything that happens is already in place, why bother, it's going to happen whether or not I believe. Why believe in something that there is no evidence for either.

I never said otherwise. However, for those of us who DO believe in a God, we also believe in an afterlife, that also existing outside this time and space. Our faith prepares our souls for the afterlife, it doesn't suddenly solve all life's problems and make us millionaires. And again - it is not a religious belief that everything is already in place. Read up on special relativity and its consequences on spacetime.

I understand. We don't have freewill, only the illusion. So again, what's the point.

What's the point in what? In believing? None, other than the effects on your afterlife. Although, I would say that my faith has given me a peace and contentment with the world around me, regardless of what happens. I suspect that peace and contentment is a critical aspect of my soul necessary for the afterlife, but again - I don't claim to know how God works or why.

So why did god pause in his creation track to make contact or interact with a special few.

See above regarding spacetime. God didn't pause anything. Every interaction throughout time was established at the moment of creation, and most likely implemented through processes that do not conflict with any laws of the universe. In other words, the laws of the universe were used to manifest his interactions. Or rather, he doesn't interact - he simply created - if I am forced to use Newtonian terms.

Please tell me what kind of interaction you had with the all mighty.

I am all ears.

And why bother at all. Since the path was already created. Why would god need to interact with anybody. Did he make a mistake along the way that he had to fix.

Again, see above. Spacetime is not what you seem to think it is. The experiences that I have had in my conciousness can (or would be if we knew more about neurosciences) be explained scientifically. However, I don't need to understand how they come about to recognize them.