What is the starting point?

encapsulating by exclusion is not particularly elegant

The Christians do not care about that ...

Anyway, I would like to know why this "you will burn in hell for all eternity if you don't accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" holds me in such a grip.

Why I have this crippling fear that the Christians may be right.

Why I feel guilty for trying to overcome this fear.

Why I feel that I am risking eternal damnation if I don't do as Christians tell me.
Doing as they tell me is impossible anyway, since almost every Christian claims he or she has the one and only right knowledge of God and that all others are wrong, so no matter what I do, I am wrong in the eyes of some Christian, so I feel I am risking eternal damnation no matter what I do.
I don't know - do I just somehow have to accept I may be risking eternal damnation, make peace with such a prospect, before I can move on with my spiritual practice?


I hate what I have become in trying to deal with Christianity. It is like a drug addiction, leeching the life out of me, sabotaging any attempt to overcome it. And yet millions of people believe it is the right way, and they tell me it is just that I haven't tried hard enough. How can I prove them wrong?



At the core of impersonalism is an inability to acknowledge the needs, interests and concerns of others (mostly due to a resolute focus on one's own needs etc)

It seems to me that not acknowleding the needs, interests and concerns of others (for whatever reason, such as "I am a bad and lowly person, I should not be interested in the needs, interests and concerns of others") leads to impersonalism as well.
 
The Christians do not care about that ...

Anyway, I would like to know why this "you will burn in hell for all eternity if you don't accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" holds me in such a grip.

Why I have this crippling fear that the Christians may be right.

Why I feel guilty for trying to overcome this fear.

Why I feel that I am risking eternal damnation if I don't do as Christians tell me.
Doing as they tell me is impossible anyway, since almost every Christian claims he or she has the one and only right knowledge of God and that all others are wrong, so no matter what I do, I am wrong in the eyes of some Christian, so I feel I am risking eternal damnation no matter what I do.
I don't know - do I just somehow have to accept I may be risking eternal damnation, make peace with such a prospect, before I can move on with my spiritual practice?


I hate what I have become in trying to deal with Christianity. It is like a drug addiction, leeching the life out of me, sabotaging any attempt to overcome it. And yet millions of people believe it is the right way, and they tell me it is just that I haven't tried hard enough. How can I prove them wrong?
It might be easier by not trying to focus on scenarios that dish out a scathing defeat of the opposition




It seems to me that not acknowleding the needs, interests and concerns of others (for whatever reason, such as "I am a bad and lowly person, I should not be interested in the needs, interests and concerns of others") leads to impersonalism as well.
sure
 
It might be easier by not trying to focus on scenarios that dish out a scathing defeat of the opposition

Then what could I do, what could I focus on?

If I am understanding you correctly, my aim should not be a (scathing) defeat of Christianity and Christians?

But if I try to peacefully understand the phenomenon of Christianity in Vedic terms, the Christians will take offense. I may not speak about it openly with them, but I know they take offense at the Vedic view. So my taking on the Vedic view would be an offense merely waiting to be realized by them.


I wish I would know of a productive way to make peace with Christianity.
I have tried to become a Christian myself, but that didn't work, it seems impossible for me.
I have tried to take up a different religion with the thought "I am such a bad person, this is why I didn't take to Christianity, but to this lowly and false religion. Christianity is too good for me. And I fully accept that I will burn in hell for all eternity." - This didn't work either.
It seems to me that the only two ways of making peace with Christianity would be to either become a Christian myself (and thus try to eliminate the problem), or to give up on myself and my life (and thus try to eliminate the one who has the problem).




Then a factor for overcoming impersonalism is to show some interest for the needs, interests and concerns of others?
 
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Then what could I do, what could I focus on?

If I am understanding you correctly, my aim should not be a (scathing) defeat of Christianity and Christians?
my point is that there is a distinction between a philosophy and particular personalities who represent it. For instance a lot of your problems with Christianity seem to be more about your friends who are christian.
But if I try to peacefully understand the phenomenon of Christianity in Vedic terms, the Christians will take offense. I may not speak about it openly with them, but I know they take offense at the Vedic view. So my taking on the Vedic view would be an offense merely waiting to be realized by them.
full disclosure is not really something reserved for all grades of social interaction
I wish I would know of a productive way to make peace with Christianity.
I have tried to become a Christian myself, but that didn't work, it seems impossible for me.
I have tried to take up a different religion with the thought "I am such a bad person, this is why I didn't take to Christianity, but to this lowly and false religion. Christianity is too good for me. And I fully accept that I will burn in hell for all eternity." - This didn't work either.
do you think these two options are the consequence of an exhaustive search for a solution to the problem?






Then a factor for overcoming impersonalism is to show some interest for the needs, interests and concerns of others?
Its more of a key for personalism. Even people who have a superficial interest in such things (such as the retail industry) get trained along similar lines
 
my point is that there is a distinction between a philosophy and particular personalities who represent it. For instance a lot of your problems with Christianity seem to be more about your friends who are christian.

I don't see it that way at all, and I am amazed how anyone manages to see it in such harmless ways.

To me, the words and actions of my Christian relatives, friends, acquaintances, strangers, books, internet pages etc. only serve as material for the worst imaginable option, the worst case scenario.

I think that if I could find certainty that those people's words and actions are not actually in line with what Jesus taught - that would be great. But I see no way to come to that certainty.

I have usually been approaching all life problems, not only Christianity, on such terms: find the worst case scenario, then find ways to deal with that somehow. The only safety and peace can be in preparing for the worst - that has been my motto. (I am sure I am not the only one.)


But if I try to peacefully understand the phenomenon of Christianity in Vedic terms, the Christians will take offense. I may not speak about it openly with them, but I know they take offense at the Vedic view. So my taking on the Vedic view would be an offense merely waiting to be realized by them.
full disclosure is not really something reserved for all grades of social interaction

What do you mean? I said I don't tell Christians about my aspirations (at least not anymore), nor do I intend to do so in the future.


do you think these two options are the consequence of an exhaustive search for a solution to the problem?

No. Perhaps there are other ways to solve this problem.
 
I don't see it that way at all, and I am amazed how anyone manages to see it in such harmless ways.

To me, the words and actions of my Christian relatives, friends, acquaintances, strangers, books, internet pages etc. only serve as material for the worst imaginable option, the worst case scenario.

I think that if I could find certainty that those people's words and actions are not actually in line with what Jesus taught - that would be great. But I see no way to come to that certainty.

I have usually been approaching all life problems, not only Christianity, on such terms: find the worst case scenario, then find ways to deal with that somehow.
The sources that indicate the ideal and the examples one draws from to gather information about the validity of that ideal are distinct

The only safety and peace can be in preparing for the worst - that has been my motto. (I am sure I am not the only one.)
the other half of it is "hope for the best"



What do you mean? I said I don't tell Christians about my aspirations (at least not anymore), nor do I intend to do so in the future.
then what's the problem?




No. Perhaps there are other ways to solve this problem.
to relegate a solution to a handful of fatalistic options is not effective problem solving
 
I don't see it that way at all, and I am amazed how anyone manages to see it in such harmless ways.

To me, the words and actions of my Christian relatives, friends, acquaintances, strangers, books, internet pages etc. only serve as material for the worst imaginable option, the worst case scenario.

I think that if I could find certainty that those people's words and actions are not actually in line with what Jesus taught - that would be great. But I see no way to come to that certainty.
Do you get much from what is not the behavior of individuals in Christianity? I mean, do reading the Bible, praying, attending church, contemplation or any other Christian activities you might engage in offer you much? Do the ideas in Christianity 'work' for you? I am trying to separate out two possible scenarios: in one you do feel drawn to the religion and in a personal way connect to it and find value in it, but the way other members act and are ruins this or makes you doubt your own version of Christianity
or
you do not have such a connection (any more perhaps).

I realize it may be hard to separate out the two things: how others are making you feel and how you feel as the monad Christian - since you are not a monad.
I have usually been approaching all life problems, not only Christianity, on such terms: find the worst case scenario, then find ways to deal with that somehow. The only safety and peace can be in preparing for the worst - that has been my motto. (I am sure I am not the only one.)
I have also had this attitude. I am not sure it is the best one - just laughed at myself since the irony is the case scenario with this approach is that, well, it is very damaging. I think there may be hubris in this on occasion. This is just an intuitive reaction I will have to feel out more, but it seems like it makes me take on a godlike task. Then in very practical every day terms, I need to relax. I am not sure the constant expectation of - and mulling over how to deal with - the worst allows me to deal even with somewhat bad scenarios very well, or good ones, or the worst. I am not sure being tensed for a blow all the time actually helps when blows come or helps us avoid them.

None of this will snap me or anyone else out of this stance, but I am actually getting to look at it, here, with a little more distance than usual.
 
I'm Back!

Anyway, I would like to know why this "you will burn in hell for all eternity if you don't accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" holds me in such a grip.

That dogma isn't quite true..
Jesus has already died for your sins..he can't die again after you become saved..its just a matter of one accepting that he did this for us..
once you become 'saved' you will still be a sinner..we all are..anyone tells you any different is just fooling themselves..
that particular dogma is expressed by those who think they are in a competition to convert the most amount of ppl to christianity..which in my opinion is hurting more than it is helping..

Why I have this crippling fear that the Christians may be right.

if you are living like there is no God you better be right...

Why I feel guilty for trying to overcome this fear.

guilt does not need to be justifiable to exist..it is an emotional state of being that does not nessecarily have anything to do with reality..

Why I feel that I am risking eternal damnation if I don't do as Christians tell me.
Doing as they tell me is impossible anyway, since almost every Christian claims he or she has the one and only right knowledge of God and that all others are wrong, so no matter what I do, I am wrong in the eyes of some Christian, so I feel I am risking eternal damnation no matter what I do.
I don't know - do I just somehow have to accept I may be risking eternal damnation, make peace with such a prospect, before I can move on with my spiritual practice?

don't do as you are told!! question everything.. "Test all things hold onto what is good"(quote from somewhere in proverbs i think..)
look it up for yourself in the bible see if the bible lines up with what ppl are telling you..lots of christians know you will not look it up, so they will tell you whatever just to make themselves feel more worthy..
this boils down to RTFM! (read the fricking manual)

I hate what I have become in trying to deal with Christianity. It is like a drug addiction, leeching the life out of me, sabotaging any attempt to overcome it. And yet millions of people believe it is the right way, and they tell me it is just that I haven't tried hard enough. How can I prove them wrong?

The short version of what to make of christianity is simple..
its about the relationships you form from it.

It seems to me that not acknowleding the needs, interests and concerns of others (for whatever reason, such as "I am a bad and lowly person, I should not be interested in the needs, interests and concerns of others") leads to impersonalism as well.

im not sure i understand this part..but impersonalism is a bad thing..
 
That dogma isn't quite true..
Jesus has already died for your sins..he can't die again after you become saved..its just a matter of one accepting that he did this for us..
Which should be problematic. He did not say he was dying for us. And since he was God himself, it really makes no sense that he would need to suffer something horrible so that we wouldn't suffer something God, up till that time thought we deserved to suffer. Nor would it makes sense if he were not God but God's divine son.

if you are living like there is no God you better be right...
A statement which can, really, on instill fear. And even if there is a God, he or she may not be a Christian one.

guilt does not need to be justifiable to exist..it is an emotional state of being that does not nessecarily have anything to do with reality..
yes, but religions and the religious - just like any system or person - whose beliefs are going to lead to guilt need to take responsibility for that. Being told that someone suffered horribly for my sins leads to guilt. And anyone dealing with humans must know this. So one is left with the choice between those saying that Jesus died for our sins are ignorant or they intend people to feel guilt. Neither option is flattering.
 
The sources that indicate the ideal and the examples one draws from to gather information about the validity of that ideal are distinct

I don't see how this applies to an outsider to Christianity.


What do you mean? I said I don't tell Christians about my aspirations (at least not anymore), nor do I intend to do so in the future.

then what's the problem?

Offending them. Christians will generally take offense already if one is not of the same religion as they are; Christians tend to take offense at the mere existence of others. One doesn't have to say or do anything in particular to the Christian, it is enough that one is not a Christian, and a Christian will likely take offense.

Given the possibility that Christianity is right about God, offending Christians would of course be bad.

It seems to me I would first need to prove that Christianity does not have the ultimate say in matters of God, before I could move on.


the other half of it is "hope for the best"
...
to relegate a solution to a handful of fatalistic options is not effective problem solving

How do you account for the possibility that existence is absurd?
 
Do you get much from what is not the behavior of individuals in Christianity? I mean, do reading the Bible, praying, attending church, contemplation or any other Christian activities you might engage in offer you much? Do the ideas in Christianity 'work' for you? I am trying to separate out two possible scenarios: in one you do feel drawn to the religion and in a personal way connect to it and find value in it, but the way other members act and are ruins this or makes you doubt your own version of Christianity
or
you do not have such a connection (any more perhaps).

I realize it may be hard to separate out the two things: how others are making you feel and how you feel as the monad Christian - since you are not a monad.

I do not feel any particular connection to Christianity per se. All that about Jesus - it means nothing to me.

I do think a person should acknowledge or attempt to acknowledge the Supreme somehow - and this is done in Christianity, but also in Islam, Judaism, a number of other religions and even in humanism or atheism (even atheists have some idea that some phenomena are supreme to others and that this should be acknowledged).

I would say that what connects me to Christianity are some meta-stances:
"In order to properly relate to God, I have to think and act opposite from the way I usually do - which means I should do as Christians tell me."
"I am always wrong, and those who tell me that I am wrong, are right. Christians keep telling me I am wrong, therefore, they are right."
"Whatever I cannot disprove, I have to accept as true. I cannot disprove Christian claims, therefore, I have to accept them as true."
"If only I would try harder, I would see that the Christians are right."

I feel toward Christianity similar like a battered wife feels about leaving her abusive husband - she is afraid that she would be wrong to leave, and that if only she tried harder, she would see how she deserves that her husband treats her the way he does, and that if only she would try harder and loved him more (or actually loved him, finally), then he would not have to beat her.

But while the battered wife scenario does not have eternal implications, the one with Christianity does. I feel bad about distancing myself from Christianity, I feel bad about not dealing with Christians on their terms. I keep fearing that I just haven't tried hard enough to realize that Christianity truly is superior to all other religions. And that if I leave despite lacking this realization, I will be sure to go to hell for all eternity.


I have also had this attitude. I am not sure it is the best one - just laughed at myself since the irony is the case scenario with this approach is that, well, it is very damaging. I think there may be hubris in this on occasion. This is just an intuitive reaction I will have to feel out more, but it seems like it makes me take on a godlike task. Then in very practical every day terms, I need to relax. I am not sure the constant expectation of - and mulling over how to deal with - the worst allows me to deal even with somewhat bad scenarios very well, or good ones, or the worst. I am not sure being tensed for a blow all the time actually helps when blows come or helps us avoid them.

I agree, on all points.

But when faced with important questions that would require omnipotence to be answered - what can one do?

What can one do when faced with such conceptions of God and relating to God that by all accounts one finds absurd, but cannot disprove them?

How can one act without constantly fearing eternal damnation?
 
I feel toward Christianity similar like a battered wife feels about leaving her abusive husband - she is afraid that she would be wrong to leave, and that if only she tried harder, she would see how she deserves that her husband treats her the way he does, and that if only she would try harder and loved him more (or actually loved him, finally), then he would not have to beat her.
I was thinking of this precise analogy, though perhaps you have mentioned it before. Perhaps that would be a better source of solutions, to ask women what finally led them to leave abusive men. I am sure that certain thoughts played a role, but I would think that emotions played a strong role, also.

But while the battered wife scenario does not have eternal implications, the one with Christianity does. I feel bad about distancing myself from Christianity, I feel bad about not dealing with Christians on their terms. I keep fearing that I just haven't tried hard enough to realize that Christianity truly is superior to all other religions. And that if I leave despite lacking this realization, I will be sure to go to hell for all eternity.
Musn't there be at root a personal component to this. Something that means there is something wrong, specifically with you, either your faculties or moral essence or both? A belief, that is, that you specifically cannot trust yourself because ______________.

I agree, on all points.

But when faced with important questions that would require omnipotence to be answered - what can one do?

What can one do when faced with such conceptions of God and relating to God that by all accounts one finds absurd, but cannot disprove them?
I cannot disprove many opposed ideas. I cannot disprove ideas that underly every action I take. I am damned if I do and damned if I don't when it comes to ideas.

How can one act without constantly fearing eternal damnation?
I think the question form and the generalized third person may be misleading. As I said earlier I think there must be a personal component, a reason it seems you cannot trust yourself. At least this was the case for me. I think we simply do decide not to listen to abusive voices at a certain point and at that point we stop demanding of ourselves that we must prove them wrong. We stop assuming we have the onus.

From a neo-buddhist/hindu perspective, a soul believing it must accept an abusive thought is a soul damned as long as that thought is given power. This is hell. I wish I could present as intimidating and extensive an edifice - as the one Christianity does - so this might seem as authoritative and counteract the other, but I can't.

I think there are a number of abusive ideas that we are disentangling ourselves from, that there is a history to that process.

Death threats - which eternal damnation is the ultimate form of - make the whole thing very hard to even relax enough to look at, I think.
 
don't do as you are told!! question everything.. "Test all things hold onto what is good"(quote from somewhere in proverbs i think..)
look it up for yourself in the bible see if the bible lines up with what ppl are telling you..lots of christians know you will not look it up, so they will tell you whatever just to make themselves feel more worthy..
this boils down to RTFM! (read the fricking manual)

What does it matter if I read the Bible??

If I read the Bible, and I come to a different understanding than the Christians, then the Christians tell me I am wrong.

I don't consider myself any kind of authority on the Bible, so how could I claim that my understanding is correct, while that of the Christians is wrong??
 
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I was thinking of this precise analogy, though perhaps you have mentioned it before. Perhaps that would be a better source of solutions, to ask women what finally led them to leave abusive men. I am sure that certain thoughts played a role, but I would think that emotions played a strong role, also.

I have read some of those stories. Many of those women say that the worst was right after they have left.
I couldn't come to any conclusion as to what finally drove them to leave, and many accounts seem to have considerable hindsight bias.
It appears that many may have left in a state of great distress and confusion, not actually thinking much, but just sort of closing their eyes, gritting their teeth and walking away, and that they felt there was no way to make sense either of the relationship with their husband, of their own role in it, and of whether to stay or to leave.


Musn't there be at root a personal component to this. Something that means there is something wrong, specifically with you, either your faculties or moral essence or both? A belief, that is, that you specifically cannot trust yourself because ______________.

"Because I a pagan." It's a double bind.


I think the question form and the generalized third person may be misleading.

I think it is part of the problem: Christian epistemology seems to be formulated in impersonalist conceptions - objectivist, neutral, as if presuming omniscience.
While in so-called Eastern traditions, they distinguish between knowing something theoretically (having book-knowledge of it) and knowing in terms of personal realization (the knowledge that comes from having thoroughly applied the book-knowledge), this difference is generally not acknowledged in Christianity.
"It doesn't matter what you think, know, or don't know, what you want or what you don't want, what you think you need or what you think you don't need. The only thing that matters is the truth, and the Bible presents it veritably."

But we're not talking about Christianity here per se, but about a set of double-bind epistemological stances and examples of moral reasoning that by general human terms seem absurd - it is just that these culminate in mainstream Christianity.


As I said earlier I think there must be a personal component, a reason it seems you cannot trust yourself. At least this was the case for me. I think we simply do decide not to listen to abusive voices at a certain point and at that point we stop demanding of ourselves that we must prove them wrong. We stop assuming we have the onus.

I suppose this is when the battered wife leaves.


From a neo-buddhist/hindu perspective, a soul believing it must accept an abusive thought is a soul damned as long as that thought is given power. This is hell. I wish I could present as intimidating and extensive an edifice - as the one Christianity does - so this might seem as authoritative and counteract the other, but I can't.

I've been thinking about worst case scenarios. A WCS isn't static or somehow a given - the more I read and think about things, the more I can think of different WCS.

For example, what is worse:
WCS1: "God will torture me for all eternity if I don't do what I find impossible and morally repugnant to do."
WCS2: " Thinking that I could become qualified to become friends with God, a running-through-the-meadows-eating-strawberries-together kind of friends, if I regularly follow a prescribed, doable practice - but not doing that practice."

I think the second one is actually worse.


Death threats - which eternal damnation is the ultimate form of - make the whole thing very hard to even relax enough to look at, I think.

Yes. The threat of eternal damnation just turns my mind into a blank for the most part.
 
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I don't see how this applies to an outsider to Christianity.
there's no sources to draw on to determine the nature of an ideal christian?



Offending them. Christians will generally take offense already if one is not of the same religion as they are; Christians tend to take offense at the mere existence of others. One doesn't have to say or do anything in particular to the Christian, it is enough that one is not a Christian, and a Christian will likely take offense.
then if that's truly the case, its simply useless to fret about it
Given the possibility that Christianity is right about God, offending Christians would of course be bad.
If you're going to play the probability game, it might also be worthwhile to weigh in some others issues. I mean if you are absolutely convinced that the christians in your precinct are such absolute social and philosophical dropkicks, you either have to reevaluate your means of assessment of christianity as a whole or wonder how the epitome of truth can manifest in a misanthropic hubris.
It seems to me I would first need to prove that Christianity does not have the ultimate say in matters of God, before I could move on.
If you want to stand by your assessment, i think you have already done that




How do you account for the possibility that existence is absurd?
such a world view doesn't require any sort of accounting
 
Which should be problematic. He did not say he was dying for us. And since he was God himself, it really makes no sense that he would need to suffer something horrible so that we wouldn't suffer something God, up till that time thought we deserved to suffer. Nor would it makes sense if he were not God but God's divine son.

I do not consider myself an expert on the bible,i have read it through,im sure somewhere it says something about he died for us..
trying to get your head around the trinity is confusing at best..the best way i can think of it is as as father can be a son and a husband and a grandfather at the same time...


A statement which can, really, on instill fear. And even if there is a God, he or she may not be a Christian one.

a title that we as humans give him to justify our own beliefs.. i only think of him as God, not christian God..

yes, but religions and the religious - just like any system or person - whose beliefs are going to lead to guilt need to take responsibility for that. Being told that someone suffered horribly for my sins leads to guilt. And anyone dealing with humans must know this. So one is left with the choice between those saying that Jesus died for our sins are ignorant or they intend people to feel guilt. Neither option is flattering.

guilt? what about respect? if you commited a crime and someone stepped up and took the blame for you would guilt be the only thing you would feel?
 
What does it matter if I read the Bible??

it means that you don't have to rely on just what other ppl tell you about whats in there..

If I read the Bible, and I come to a different understanding than the Christians, then the Christians tell me I am wrong.

this applies to ANY differance in opinions not just religious opinions..
i think it has to do with feelings of worthlessness and a persons proclivity to avoid their own feelings of worthlessness..

and if you read the bible and come to a different understanding it is just a vehicle to discuss the differances in that understanding..(unfortunatly humanity has not learned to discuss differances in opinion without involving their emotional state of being)

I don't consider myself any kind of authority on the Bible, so how could I claim that my understanding is correct, while that of the Christians is wrong??

if you have read some of my older posts, you will see how i try to avoid saying your wrong..to me when it comes to religion we ALL could be wrong, we will never know for sure until we die and meet God himself (and even then it is subjective to arguement,whether we will actually meet him or not..much less gain any additional knowledge..i like to think we will..)
 
there's no sources to draw on to determine the nature of an ideal christian?

Not for a non-Christian.
I have only once seen that a Christian conceeded a point to a non-Christian - it was in Steven Rosen's book where he is talking to a Christian clergy man.

You seem to have a lot of confidence in your mental and other abilities, given that you seem to think it suffices that a person study the Bible and this is enough to come to some relevant conclusions about Christians or what Jesus taught.
I have never met, in person or in writing, a Christian who would acknowledge that a non-Christian could have such an ability.


then if that's truly the case, its simply useless to fret about it

And ease into the prospect of being burned alive for all eternity, and consider this love and justice?


If you're going to play the probability game, it might also be worthwhile to weigh in some others issues. I mean if you are absolutely convinced that the christians in your precinct are such absolute social and philosophical dropkicks, you either have to reevaluate your means of assessment of christianity as a whole or wonder how the epitome of truth can manifest in a misanthropic hubris.

Which is what I have been trying to do.
Millions of Christians all over the world and time are convinced that eternal damnation with no chance of redemption is a fair, loving, just consequence for not choosing Jesus as one's Lord and Savior (in the right Christian church, of course).

I have been trying for decades to convince myself that the Christians are right, and that I am just too stupid and too evil to understand them.
I have been trying to convince myself that it is indeed love and justice for God to torture His children for all eternity.
I have been trying to convince myself that it makes perfect sense that people who claim to know God so fully that they feel confident to declare eternal damnation to anyone who doesn't believe and do as they do - that it makes sense that these people pursue such worldly pleasures as hunting, meat-eating, casual sex, alcohol, coffee.

I couldn't convince myself of that, and of course I feel very guilty about that.


If you want to stand by your assessment, i think you have already done that

I don't see it, though.





such a world view doesn't require any sort of accounting

Then how do you live with uncertainty? (Or have you forgotten about that phase of your life?)
Have you ever wondered that the religion you have chosen for yourself could in fact be wrong, nothing but an elaborate illusion produced by the devil to which you gave in because of your tendency to rebel against God (and that therefore you have opted for eternal damnation)?
 
if you commited a crime and someone stepped up and took the blame for you would guilt be the only thing you would feel?

Even in the most worldy affairs, I would not be comfortable with someone else taking the blame for my crimes.
I do not consider scapegoating to be a valid form of justice.


What to speak of someone taking the blame for me in spiritual matters, especially when the terms are so vaguely defined as in Christianity.
 
Even in the most worldy affairs, I would not be comfortable with someone else taking the blame for my crimes.
I do not consider scapegoating to be a valid form of justice.

scapegoating infers that the person taking the blame does not want to take the blame.i am sure prisons have a few ppl who volunteered to take the blame to prevent someone they love from going to jail..

Have you ever wondered that the religion you have chosen for yourself could in fact be wrong, nothing but an elaborate illusion produced by the devil

of course they are all wrong..do you really think that MAN could ever figure out what god is about?only god knows that..personally i think each religion has a kernel of truth in it..it wont be till they can all get together and discuss their differences in a mature and rational manner (yeah right!) that they will even come close to figuring out what god is about..right now they are too busy argueing about who is right and who is wrong to glean ANY truth from the whole..
 
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