What is the starting point?

[Medicine*Woman]

The Christians do not care about that ...

Anyway, I would like to know why this "you will burn in hell for all eternity if you don't accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" holds me in such a grip.

Why I have this crippling fear that the Christians may be right.

Why I feel guilty for trying to overcome this fear.

Why I feel that I am risking eternal damnation if I don't do as Christians tell me.

Doing as they tell me is impossible anyway, since almost every Christian claims he or she has the one and only right knowledge of God and that all others are wrong, so no matter what I do, I am wrong in the eyes of some Christian, so I feel I am risking eternal damnation no matter what I do.
I don't know - do I just somehow have to accept I may be risking eternal damnation, make peace with such a prospect, before I can move on with my spiritual practice?

I hate what I have become in trying to deal with Christianity. It is like a drug addiction, leeching the life out of me, sabotaging any attempt to overcome it. And yet millions of people believe it is the right way, and they tell me it is just that I haven't tried hard enough. How can I prove them wrong?

It seems to me that not acknowleding the needs, interests and concerns of others (for whatever reason, such as "I am a bad and lowly person, I should not be interested in the needs, interests and concerns of others") leads to impersonalism as well.

*************
M*W: Your post inspired me to reply. Not to be facetious, but I feel your pain.

Think about it. What in the world do christians care about? They are not in touch with reality! The god they believe in is simply not there, but they don't know that. Hah! But we WILL tell them! You should not feel guilty about their delusions.

Please let go of that false grip that's holding onto you, lying to you, and making you feel guilty for something that doesn't exist! All I can tell you is that there are a lot of people who have released themselves from that same grip and "saw the light." In that "light," there was no savior. There was no burning hell, and there was no more guilt.

I wish I could comfort you, but that's the mother in me. The atheist in me can tell you the truth and hope that you will also see "the light."

Fear gives birth to guilt. Let go of the fear, and the guilt will soon follow.

Learn to think for yourself. You can do this! Stop letting 2000 years of a lie and myth do the "thinking" for you. If you are still going to a church, I would ask you to cease. This is the beginning of your "recovery" from christianity. Christianity is an addiction. All religions are addictions. That's how christianity has survived for 2000 years! People want to believe in myths. That's human nature. Human nature also loves the truth. Continue to search for the truth and free yourself from that mythical grip.

From the depth of what you are saying, and the feeling you are saying it with, it sounds like there may be christians in your life who are forcing you into the bondage they are engulfed in. I would ask you to seriously look at them so you would understand how they have imprisoned their own minds with their religious addictions.

It sounds as if you are looking to find spirituality in your life. This is a good direction. Finding spirituality means finding yourself. Once the chains of these false doctrines fall from your shoulders, you will feel so relieved! You will be free of this lie that is burdoning your mind. Christians may say, "Let go, and let God." Medicine*Woman says, "Let go of god, and let me be!"

From your post I can tell that you are a wonderful person, someone I consider to be on the right spiritual track. You need to get your spirit back. You need to save your spirit from the false gods of the delusional christians. They will never see heaven, and you will never see hell. Why? They don't exist at all.

I would like to refer you to the think atheist website at www.thinkatheist.com. It's easy to read, informative, uplifting, sometimes funny, always truthful, and offers a great support system while you're recovering from a 2000 year-old lie that has held you hostage.

I would also like to hear from you if you need to talk about it. You, or anyone else, who want to talk about trying to break from the grips of christianity, contact me at medwoman@swbell.net. I'm your friend. I'm on your side. Let me lead you to the truth and the "light."

 

[Doreen]

I do not consider myself an expert on the bible,i have read it through,im sure somewhere it says something about he died for us..
trying to get your head around the trinity is confusing at best..the best way i can think of it is as as father can be a son and a husband and a grandfather at the same time...

Just to be clear. When I said it does not make sense, even if God is both son and father, one of whom makes the other get tortured and this makes the first change his mind
I did not mean just that it does not make sense in my mind
it makes no sense in my heart. And no on, I believe, has attributed this interpretation of the crucifixion to Jesus. I see no reason to take it seriously.

a title that we as humans give him to justify our own beliefs.. i only think of him as God, not christian God..

Yes, that wasn't really the point. The belief that Jesus died for our sins is a Christian one. If the Christian version of God is not correct, than this story, the attendant guilt, etc., may also not be correct. It seemed like you were saying to Signal that God's existence might be a threat if Signal did not buy that story.

guilt? what about respect? if you commited a crime and someone stepped up and took the blame for you would guilt be the only thing you would feel?

I never said it would be the only thing, just that it would be the natural thing. However it would strike me as very strange if the judge who would have sentenced me took the blame and tortured himself. If I deserved to be tortured, than I deserved to be tortured. If I did not, I did not. It is simply a ludicrous interpretation made up not by Jesus or God but by fallible men. We were not born guilty of making a deity suffer and we should neither feel guilty about it, nor take that story seriously.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Just to be clear. When I said it does not make sense, even if God is both son and father, one of whom makes the other get tortured and this makes the first change his mind
I did not mean just that it does not make sense in my mind
it makes no sense in my heart. And no on, I believe, has attributed this interpretation of the crucifixion to Jesus. I see no reason to take it seriously.
Yes, that wasn't really the point. The belief that Jesus died for our sins is a Christian one. If the Christian version of God is not correct, than this story, the attendant guilt, etc., may also not be correct. It seemed like you were saying to Signal that God's existence might be a threat if Signal did not buy that story.

there are certain aspects of religion that i do no take too seriously,with all things made from man,there are good things and bad things mixed together..i try to weed out the bad things and focus on the good..
as far as only christianity believing jesus died for our sins..i am sure there are others that do also..(but then again i am not a religious expert..just have my own opinions..)

I never said it would be the only thing, just that it would be the natural thing. However it would strike me as very strange if the judge who would have sentenced me took the blame and tortured himself. If I deserved to be tortured, than I deserved to be tortured. If I did not, I did not. It is simply a ludicrous interpretation made up not by Jesus or God but by fallible men. We were not born guilty of making a deity suffer and we should neither feel guilty about it, nor take that story seriously.

do you have kids?how far would you go to teach your kids an important lesson? would you let yourself get hurt to prevent them from getting hurt?

as far as being born guilty of making god suffer...i dont think so..
i dont recall anything in the bible saying anything like that..
i do know it doesnt take much to make a person feel guilty (i am sure LOTS of preachers capatilize on that)and i am sure the majority of ppl who turn to religion (the orginazation not the God) are looking for their own sense of worth,and religion tends to tell them if you do this or that you will have your sense of worth..truth is our sense of worth is more complex than that...

 

[Doreen]

there are certain aspects of religion that i do no take too seriously,with all things made from man,there are good things and bad things mixed together..i try to weed out the bad things and focus on the good..
as far as only christianity believing jesus died for our sins..i am sure there are others that do also..(but then again i am not a religious expert..just have my own opinions..)

Well, that's fine, I'm not an expert either. But what makes you think other religions have this belief. To belief that Jesus died for your sins pretty much includes you in Christianity. Jews, except for Jews for Jesus, do not. Muslims do not. The concepts don't really work in Hinduism or Buddhism. I suppose one could be a Christian Buddhist. But once you have accepted that Christ was God incarnate who dies for our sins you belief in the core beliefs of Christianity.

do you have kids?how far would you go to teach your kids an important lesson? would you let yourself get hurt to prevent them from getting hurt?

Of course. But let's look at the actual situation. God decides they should be hurt and God's son (or God himself) protects his children from God's decision. It would be like my spouse decides the kids should be whipped and I throw myself in between and get whipped. Sure, this could happen, but we would think - those of us against whipping children - that my spouse was about to act immorally.

as far as being born guilty of making god suffer...i dont think so..
i dont recall anything in the bible saying anything like that..

Jesus died for our sins. He suffered 'for us'. You said it yourself....

Jesus has already died for your sins..

I don't know if the Bible supports this, but Christians often do.

If we did not have sins, he would not have needed to be tortured and killed. It is not my guilt alone, but it is a collective guilt of which I and all others are supposed to be a part of.

 

[Neverfly]

The guilt is further exacerbated by the threat of eternal damnation.

 

[Doreen]

The guilt is further exacerbated by the threat of eternal damnation.

Yes, I think most guilt is terror that is fixed in place with a rule - as opposed to remorse - a temporary state - where one faces what one did. If someone feels guilty for being sexual, for example, (and also relevent to Christianity) it is generally pretty easy to find an underlying fear. the threat of eternal damnation is so grave that it makes it very hard to sort out the guilt involved. We would often rather think we are bad or wrong than take a chance of being tortured. I mean, think of high school - and that's just four years of damnation.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Well, that's fine, I'm not an expert either. But what makes you think other religions have this belief. To belief that Jesus died for your sins pretty much includes you in Christianity. Jews, except for Jews for Jesus, do not. Muslims do not. The concepts don't really work in Hinduism or Buddhism. I suppose one could be a Christian Buddhist. But once you have accepted that Christ was God incarnate who dies for our sins you belief in the core beliefs of Christianity.

mainly cause i know that if someone doesn't like certain things about their religion they can quit and go start their own religion wich includes all that they like and none of what they don't like..

Of course. But let's look at the actual situation. God decides they should be hurt and God's son (or God himself) protects his children from God's decision. It would be like my spouse decides the kids should be whipped and I throw myself in between and get whipped. Sure, this could happen, but we would think - those of us against whipping children - that my spouse was about to act immorally.
Jesus died for our sins. He suffered 'for us'. You said it yourself....

oh..ok..i see now what you were refering to..sorry i missed the referance..
but i think there is a differance between us making him suffer and him suffering for us...

I don't know if the Bible supports this, but Christians often do.

If we did not have sins, he would not have needed to be tortured and killed. It is not my guilt alone, but it is a collective guilt of which I and all others are supposed to be a part of.

to me the word "sin" loosely equates to "mistake" we all make mistakes,we all are sinners..(im sure someone will argue that point with me..i say, go for it)

 

[Doreen]

mainly cause i know that if someone doesn't like certain things about their religion they can quit and go start their own religion wich includes all that they like and none of what they don't like..

OK, sure. Individuals.

oh..ok..i see now what you were refering to..sorry i missed the referance..
but i think there is a differance between us making him suffer and him suffering for us...

If it were something like we are simply sitting around being perfect little beings and a boulder is flying toward us and he jumps in the way and gets hurt, OK. But if the reason the boulder is coming toward us is because we are sinners - iow because we have done and will do evil - that is a different situation. He came between us and a punishment God felt fit us.

If I have been told by my parents to never play with the gas stove in the kitchen because it is very dangerous, but I do this anyway and cause a huge fire my father has to go through to save me and he gets burned, well, I bear responsibility for his burns.

to me the word "sin" loosely equates to "mistake" we all make mistakes,we all are sinners..(im sure someone will argue that point with me..i say, go for it)

Well, you do have a nice version of Christianity. I believe the word is a translation of a number of different words used in the Bible, and most give it a stronger meaning than mistake. I mean, you don't send people to eternal damnation, I hope, for mistakes.

 

[Photizo]

However it would strike me as very strange if the judge who would have sentenced me took the blame and tortured himself. If I deserved to be tortured, than I deserved to be tortured. If I did not, I did not. It is simply a ludicrous interpretation made up not by Jesus or God but by fallible men. We were not born guilty of making a deity suffer and we should neither feel guilty about it, nor take that story seriously.

Attributing that interpretation to fallible men is fallible by definition. Therefore, how much 'faith' ought you to have in your own estimation of it? Consider the utter inability of man to discern the Divine Intent. Fallible men sans Revelation, cannot, by their own intellectual efforts, make sense of God's activity. Ergo, this same 'lack' that causes us to dismiss the notion as absurd--as you have done--is not unique among the human race, rather, it is the norm (this should also cause you to reconsider the likelihood of 'the interpretation's' origin as coming from man). Grace, Mercy, and most importantly, Love--as understood by/from the Divine standpoint--are missing from the human skill set but are in fact revealed in all their paradoxical Glory by The Holy Spirit Who authored that same Revelation mentioned earlier...He comes to an individual as a result of repentance (i.e. of one's current thoughts, attitudes, opinions etc. about God--including the content/specifics of the Gospel Message) and belief in Jesus as one's Savior. Guilt, when faced honestly, is the primary instrument in leading one to this repentance, which then results in it's permanent removal with respect to ones relationship to God. On the other hand, a dishonest view--or outright denial leading to its suppression--will do nothing but hopelessly entangle you in a web of self deceit from which extrication is impossible.

 

[Doreen]

Attributing that interpretation to fallible men is fallible by definition. Therefore, how much 'faith' ought you to have in your own estimation of it? Consider the utter inability of man to discern the Divine Intent.

Then Christians should stop explaining Divine intent.

Fallible men sans Revelation, cannot, by their own intellectual efforts, make sense of God's activity.

And again, then Christians should remain silent. The Bible does not explain or connect all the dots and yet Christians fill these in all the time. And as I said earlier Jesus did not say that he was sacrificing himself for our sins. It was men - not women - sans revelation who did.

If you think the later writers - who did not even know Jesus were not failible men, how did you manage this knowledge sans revelation?

Or are you, personally, claiming you have had this revealed to you by God?

Ergo, this same 'lack' that causes us to dismiss the notion as absurd--as you have done--is not unique among the human race, rather, it is the norm.

As I made clear to NS earlier, I said it did not make sense to my heart, not simply not to my mind.

REmember all these stories are stories written by men sans revelation. If you are claiming they had revelations than you are claiming that you have too, because you can tell who has it and who does not.

Grace, Mercy, and most importantly, Love--as understood by/from the Divine standpoint--are missing from the human skill set but are in fact revealed in all their paradoxical Glory by The Holy Spirit Who authored that same Revelation mentioned earlier...He comes to an individual as a result of repentance (i.e. of one's current thoughts, attitudes, opinions etc. about God--including the content/specifics of the Gospel Message) and belief in Jesus as one's Savior.

Well, Jesus never said anything like this.

Guilt, when faced honestly, is the primary instrument in leading one to this repentance, which then results in it's permanent removal with respect to ones relationship to God.

Remorse can be good, but not guilt. And no child should be told that Jesus died for his or her sins - no adult either, but I think it should be easier to see the problem with children. Take that as revealed. I'll say it again. No child should be told Jesus died for his or her sins. That is disgusting.

On the other hand, a dishonest view--or outright denial leading to its suppression--will do nothing but hopelessly entangle you in a web of self deceit from which extrication is impossible.

No, you're wrong about others here. Perhaps you need to feel guilt about what happened to Jesus, I cannot say. Perhaps you are the reincarnation of someone who wished him ill and you still cannot see how you would do this again. But to generalize, let me assure you, is incorrect.

 

[Neverfly]

Attributing that interpretation to fallible men is fallible by definition. Therefore, how much 'faith' ought you to have in your own estimation of it? Consider the utter inability of man to discern the Divine Intent.

Demonstrate that there IS divine intent. Once you have shown its existence, we can then try to determine our ability to grasp it.

Fallible men sans Revelation, cannot, by their own intellectual efforts, make sense of God's activity.

Nonsense. You assume there IS a God. Then you continue to shift the goal posts always out of reach of mans ability to grasp him.
Through science, we have determined a great deal about the workings of the universe. It is all basic and measurable and repeatable in testing.

In order for an intelligent designer to exist, he must have created his Divine Intent to make it APPEAR the exact opposite in order to decieve us into thinking it does not exist.
That's so absurd, no rational person would bother with it.

In order to successfully shift your goal posts, you will need to move them outside of the Universe and all the effects in it- OR - claim it's a cosmic conspiracy on the Gods part to trick us into thinking he is not there.

Grace, Mercy, and most importantly, Love--as understood by/from the Divine standpoint--are missing from the human skill set but are in fact revealed in all their paradoxical Glory by The Holy Spirit Who authored that same Revelation mentioned earlier...

Are you claiming that love, grace and mercy are something inhuman and provided SOLELY By a divine source?
Explain why animals portray these same behaviors, considering that the HOLY BIBLE Claims that the Beasts are NOT Privy to Gods grace?

He comes to an individual as a result of repentance (i.e. of one's current thoughts, attitudes, opinions etc. about God--including the content/specifics of the Gospel Message) and belief in Jesus as one's Savior. Guilt, when faced honestly, is the primary instrument in leading one to this repentance, which then results in it's permanent removal with respect to ones relationship to God. On the other hand, a dishonest view--or outright denial leading to its suppression--will do nothing but hopelessly entangle you in a web of self deceit from which extrication is impossible.

You used a lot of big words here that succeed only in making it appear as though you said something significant.

Let me sum it up for ya: "Love me, God, or I'll burn you in Hell forever and ever!!! DO IT! Do it out of guilt of my killing my own son by manipulating men to the task!"

Yeah, ok. I'm convinced.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Then Christians should stop explaining Divine intent

.

And again, then Christians should remain silent. The Bible does not explain or connect all the dots and yet Christians fill these in all the time. And as I said earlier Jesus did not say that he was sacrificing himself for our sins. It was men - not women - sans revelation who did.

whether it be christian or non-christian, men tend to play they know more than they do..it is not just a christian thing..

If you think the later writers - who did not even know Jesus were not failible men, how did you manage this knowledge sans revelation?

latter writers? you refering to mathew,mark,luke,john or peter??

Or are you, personally, claiming you have had this revealed to you by God?

now the phrase 'Revealed by god' is subjective to definition...

As I made clear to NS earlier, I said it did not make sense to my heart, not simply not to my mind.

REmember all these stories are stories written by men sans revelation. If you are claiming they had revelations than you are claiming that you have too, because you can tell who has it and who does not.

see above

Well, Jesus never said anything like this.

Remorse can be good, but not guilt. And no child should be told that Jesus died for his or her sins - no adult either, but I think it should be easier to see the problem with children. Take that as revealed. I'll say it again. No child should be told Jesus died for his or her sins. That is disgusting.

i agree with the children part just because one has to understand what sin is before he can be repentant..(well..i supose that would apply to adults too..)

No, you're wrong about others here. Perhaps you need to feel guilt about what happened to Jesus, I cannot say. Perhaps you are the reincarnation of someone who wished him ill and you still cannot see how you would do this again. But to generalize, let me assure you, is incorrect.

your wrong? incorrect? somatic fighting words...carefull...

and to generalize is a mistake one does when they say Christians are guilty of such and such...

 

[Doreen]

.
whether it be christian or non-christian, men tend to play they know more than they do..it is not just a christian thing..

Sure, I agree completely. The issue for me is that Christians think that they get to interpret and others do not. Further they tend not to take responsibility for the claim that they are making: that they can recognize the word of God. That they themselves have revealed knowledge. If you look at how I responded to this person this is the primary point I was making. Many Christians only start talking about how mysterious something is and that humans cannot know when a non-Christian says something does not make sense. Even though Christians have been explaining how it does make sense. This means they either do not recognize their own hypocrisy or they are making the claim that they have revealed knowledge themselves that gives them the right to rationally explain why it makes sense.

latter writers? you refering to mathew,mark,luke,john or peter??

And beyond.

now the phrase 'Revealed by god' is subjective to definition...

Agreed.

But if someone says 'I know this book is correct' they are making a claim to knowledge of the Divine. They knew the Bible, for example, was completely correct and the Koran was not or was only partially. I see something dangerous in this not taking responsibility for a claim to psychic level knowledge.

i agree with the children part just because one has to understand what sin is before he can be repentant..(well..i supose that would apply to adults too..)

But then the child has nothing to repent.

your wrong? incorrect? somatic fighting words...carefull...

I was responding to his claims to divine knowledge with my own. I am not sure what this has to do with bodies (somatic) but why should he get to claim he knows divine truth and not me?

and to generalize is a mistake one does when they say Christians are guilty of such and such...

I try to say 'some' or 'most' or 'often'. I may fail on occasion to do this. And then two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[wynn]

We would often rather think we are bad or wrong than take a chance of being tortured.

Good point.

Although my notion of "burning in hell for all eternity" involves all kinds of torture I can think of - physical, emotional, mental, ethical, philosophical ...

One way of thinking of hell for me is to think that hell is when one realizes one has been wrong, realizes what one should have done - and having no chance anymore to do it.

 

[wynn]

OK, sure. Individuals.

If it were something like we are simply sitting around being perfect little beings and a boulder is flying toward us and he jumps in the way and gets hurt, OK.

But if the reason the boulder is coming toward us is because we are sinners - iow because we have done and will do evil - that is a different situation. He came between us and a punishment God felt fit us.

God came between us and His wrath for us?
Then why is He wroth with us in the first place?

"See, I'm such a magnanimous chap, first I get mad at you, and then I intercede."

This is the sort of thing that abusive husbands and impatient parents say.

 

[wynn]

do you have kids?how far would you go to teach your kids an important lesson?

would you let yourself get hurt to prevent them from getting hurt?

You mean "hurt yourself in order to prevent them from getting hurt by you"?

but i think there is a differance between us making him suffer and him suffering for us...

Why would God have to suffer for us?
Whom would God try to please or appease by suffering for us??

 

[wynn]

scapegoating infers that the person taking the blame does not want to take the blame.i am sure prisons have a few ppl who volunteered to take the blame to prevent someone they love from going to jail..

I cannot relate to the mental state of a person who would make someone else pay for their crimes, or who would accept a volunteer to pay for their crimes.

I am sure it feels good to feel like one has received a second chance, and one feels indebted to the volunteer.
Like when someone would pay off one's financial debts - it would fill one with relief, but also with a great sense of indebtedness.

But in the case of our sins and the Christian conception of Jesus paying for them - things are not nearly as clear and as tangible as in the example of someone paying off our financial debts. With financial debts, we know exactly the amounts, the creditors, the terms and whatever else is needed to know.
With Jesus, we aren't even sure he existed, we aren't sure of the nature or extent of our sins. And yet we are expected to place all our hopes on that - or prepare to burn in hell for all eternity.

of course they are all wrong..do you really think that MAN could ever figure out what god is about?only god knows that..personally i think each religion has a kernel of truth in it..it wont be till they can all get together and discuss their differences in a mature and rational manner (yeah right!) that they will even come close to figuring out what god is about..right now they are too busy argueing about who is right and who is wrong to glean ANY truth from the whole.

Are you hereby saying that the scriptures that are traditionally known as the Word of God, are not actually the word of God?

 

[wynn]

Or are you, personally, claiming you have had this revealed to you by God?

I doubt he will reply.

His post is a good example of I find so terrifying about Christianity and Christians. That speaking with utmost confidence and not engaging in discussion.

 

[Doreen]

I doubt he will reply.

His post is a good example of I find so terrifying about Christianity and Christians. That speaking with utmost confidence and not engaging in discussion.

I think the line I am taking there is problematic for them. I do not mean they will suddenly crash to their knees and hold their heads or something. Let alone apologize. But there is something peculiarly Christian about this constant interpretation of what is really going on, while on occasion denying that mere humans can understand the mysteries of God, while saying the certain individuals who had direct contact with God could
individuals they can identify (amongsts all the world's philosophers, saints, gurus and prophets)
and whose texts they can recognize (amongst all the world's religious and spiritual texts)
without themselves having this intimate revelation from God.

That just doesn't work.

They don't have the courage to say they have special insight and revelation and without doing that the whole thing makes no sense at all. It is this weird Christian
humble/I know the revealed truth
oxymoron

It may be present in other religions but I associate it very strongly with Christians.

 

[Doreen]

God came between us and His wrath for us?
Then why is He wroth with us in the first place?

Precisely. It is like Jesus is the soft, more female part of God. But they never say anything quite like this openly. With God having a split personality, not merely diverging impulses. No, it makes no sense on any level, emotionally, intellectually or otherwise.

"See, I'm such a magnanimous chap, first I get mad at you, and then I intercede."

Which is the bully's way. Many bullies feel you owe them for their restraint - when they restrain themselves. I could have kicked your ass. It is also a kind of protection racket.

This is the sort of thing that abusive husbands and impatient parents say.

right, good examples.