What is the starting point?

[lightgigantic]

Nothing.
So for me, it comes down to strategic calculations. I don't know anyone though who would take up a spiritual practice on the basis of such calculations, which is very alienating. Everyone I know seems to have come to their path based on "liking it," "having a good feeling about it," or something else nice and appealing.

we all move towards what we have a taste for ... and I think that is a key issue that under-rides many things we are certain of

Welcome to the land of art for art's sake, culture for culture's sake, sport for sport's sake and so on!
It seems it is usually considered impolite to ask a musician, athlete, architect, whomever, why they do what they do, what their aim is. And if they do answer, and the answer isn't too artistically or mystically sublime for me to understand even just the grammar of it, then they say something that I just cannot relate to or find utterly silly.
"Goals are for the materialistically crazed Americans. We in Europe are cultured and do not demean ourselves with such gross things as 'goals'."

then the goal is to retain european culture as distinct from america ... or even the goal of a musician is to be a good musician (as opposed to a good heavy weight boxer or something)

I must have been ten or so when I first saw Austrian commercials (which were deemed "Western"), among them for chocolate. It said "Pamper your senses" or something to that effect. I understood the words, but I couldn't quite figure out what they had to do with eating chocolate.
I mean, we ate chocolate, we liked it. But we didn't talk about it. To actually put into words what the goal of eating chocolate is or should be - that moment of being made consciouss that that darn brown thing does not actually pamper the senses, especially not for long - that made eating chocolate bland somehow. Yet the people in those commercials did as if they would be happy, or on some mystic level that I just can't comprehend.

I feel the same way about all wordly goals that people state - once it is spelled out, it just doesn't seem worth the effort anymore. I don't know how Americans manage to live with having everything spelled out, and still finding it worthy.
I suppose as a culture, Europe was shy of stating goals, because it had the intellect to understand that those goals weren't exactly worth it, and that therefore, a civilized denial of them was the way to still make various daily and extraordinary pursuits meaningful, hence the focus on the process, not the goal.

If one doesn't have goals beyond meeting the demands of the body (or living to work and working to live) its not vastly distinct from the blatant signification of the advertisement

How can greater qualities be hijacked by lesser ones?

By illusion (since its the nature of illusion, a potency of god, to be greater than ourselves ... which isn't to say that god plants it in us, but rather that its our desire which directs us )

Would you say that chanting is one such propensity that I have adopted, but which isn't actually mine?

I wasn't talking about aspects of sadhana bhakti (which will always remain bitter just as sweet things will always remain bitter to a jaundiced person).

I was talking about talking more along the lines of activity and quality (or karma and guna). For instance just like you don't seem the type to take up kick boxing, you also don't seem the type who can suspend all pragmatic considerations of making a living or family for one's self to contemplate scripture and philosophy all day ... this doesn't of course mean that you have to address such needs, interests and concerns divorced from such philosophy, just means that grinding to a stand still until you work out how god created the universe or something will simply frustrate you

 

[wynn]

we all move towards what we have a taste for ... and I think that is a key issue that under-rides many things we are certain of

How can we know what we are moving towards, unless we have already attained it?

then the goal is to retain european culture as distinct from america ...

I don't think the "Europeans" would state it so clearly.

By illusion (since its the nature of illusion, a potency of god, to be greater than ourselves ... which isn't to say that god plants it in us, but rather that its our desire which directs us )

So once that initial decision was made to attempt to enjoy separately from God, we have set ourselves up for kinds of trouble that we did not foresee how very troublesome they would be for us?
Because normally, one would not think that the lesser can overcome the greater. But it seems that denial of God is such a profound shock to our system that that which we deem the greater can in fact be overcome by the lesser.
Am I understanding this correctly?

I wasn't talking about aspects of sadhana bhakti (which will always remain bitter just as sweet things will always remain bitter to a jaundiced person).

Do you mean that chanting will always remain bitter for me?

I was talking about talking more along the lines of activity and quality (or karma and guna). For instance just like you don't seem the type to take up kick boxing, you also don't seem the type who can suspend all pragmatic considerations of making a living or family for one's self to contemplate scripture and philosophy all day ... this doesn't of course mean that you have to address such needs, interests and concerns divorced from such philosophy, just means that grinding to a stand still until you work out how god created the universe or something will simply frustrate you

I am painfully aware of pragmatic considerations in my life.

But how can one move on with one's daily work life without actually knowing whether it is worth it, how it all ties in with relation to God and so on?

How does one deal with fundamental philosophical uncertainty, on a daily basis, and still function in the world?

 

[lightgigantic]

How can we know what we are moving towards, unless we have already attained it?

we know what we are headed towards having already had some of taste (or at least the anticipation of taste) for it

I don't think the "Europeans" would state it so clearly.

lol
I guess blunt statements are characteristic of yanks.

So once that initial decision was made to attempt to enjoy separately from God, we have set ourselves up for kinds of trouble that we did not foresee how very troublesome they would be for us?

something like that

Because normally, one would not think that the lesser can overcome the greater. But it seems that denial of God is such a profound shock to our system that that which we deem the greater can in fact be overcome by the lesser.
Am I understanding this correctly?

Its not so much the shock but coming under the agency of (maha) maya

Do you mean that chanting will always remain bitter for me?

for as long as the jaundice of material life continues, yes

I am painfully aware of pragmatic considerations in my life.

But how can one move on with one's daily work life without actually knowing whether it is worth it, how it all ties in with relation to God and so on?

How does one deal with fundamental philosophical uncertainty, on a daily basis, and still function in the world?

A healthy part of the process is to simply dovetail or add a spiritual element to whatever one is doing.

If one is besieged by doubt whether there is any merit in spiritual practices that are tagged to our routine activities, it must be doubly so in the absence of them.

 

[wynn]

we know what we are headed towards having already had some of taste (or at least the anticipation of taste) for it

Can we change our direction?

lol
I guess blunt statements are characteristic of yanks.

Perhaps it is the bluntness that disturbs "European sensitivities", not so much what is actually being said.

for as long as the jaundice of material life continues, yes

And I can't hope for this jaundice to go away anytime soon ...?

A healthy part of the process is to simply dovetail or add a spiritual element to whatever one is doing.

How does one do that?

If one is besieged by doubt whether there is any merit in spiritual practices that are tagged to our routine activities, it must be doubly so in the absence of them.

This sentence can go two ways, "them" can refer to either "spiritual practices" or "routine activities". Which did you mean?

 

[lightgigantic]

Can we change our direction?

sure, but any make over on one's values is tough work

Perhaps it is the bluntness that disturbs "European sensitivities", not so much what is actually being said.

kind of like an american might say something like "You are lying through your f*ckin teeth" and a european might say "you appear to speaking something far removed from the truth"

And I can't hope for this jaundice to go away anytime soon ...?

that depends on you

How does one do that?

Take a look at whatever one is doing and simply add K ... as opposed to turfing out all one's possessions in the name of renunciation or something (I remember one challenged practitioner who removed their in built wardrobe and cupboards with a chainsaw just to adopt the "spiritual" lifestyle"

IOW its not so much about radically changing one's life but simply reducing the opportunities for bad karma and adding K.

(I guess if one made a living as a drug dealer or butcher it could warrant a few radical changes)

This sentence can go two ways, "them" can refer to either "spiritual practices" or "routine activities". Which did you mean?

I meant spiritual practices.

Its not really possible to have an absence of routine activities.

 

[wynn]

kind of like an american might say something like "You are lying through your f*ckin teeth" and a european might say "you appear to speaking something far removed from the truth"

Nah, it would be something more Derridaish.

And I can't hope for this jaundice to go away anytime soon ...?

that depends on you

In what sense does it depend on me?

Is this jaundice subject to an overnight change; that I am supposed to have a desire so strong to turn this jaundice around that it can be done overnight, a matter of instant action, or nothing?

Because whenever I hear this "it depends on you", there seems to be the implication "if you really wanted it, you would do it instantly and succeed fully, and if you don't, it means that you don't really want it, and deserve contempt".

Take a look at whatever one is doing and simply add K ...

How do I "simply add K."?

Should I write, stitch or carve K.'s name or initial on every item that is in my possession?


Moreover, there are at least two major problems here for me:

1. I do not actually know that K. is the SPoG, or that Vedic scriptures are relevant. Perhaps it is all a hoax, like so many other supposedly spiritual things, and I will just be fooled again.
So "simply adding K." would mean to unconditionally trust that it isn't a hoax. I don't have such trust, nor do I see how to attain it.

2. Given my experiences with those who claim to be K.'s devotees, I really do not think K. would want to have anything to do with me, and more likely preceives me as a nuisance, as something to get rid of. So why I should I try to force my presence onto someone who doesn't want me?

 

[Doreen]

Why not fully enter the jaundice, give it full acceptance, embrace it and hear it out, ritually treat it as a part of you and develop a relationship the way one tries to improve a relationship with a roommate?

K?

 

[wynn]

Why not fully enter the jaundice, give it full acceptance, embrace it and hear it out, ritually treat it as a part of you and develop a relationship the way one tries to improve a relationship with a roommate?

Oh. That's like saying "If you only ate enough chocolate, and with the right attitude, then you would see there is true satisfaction in chocolate. But as it is, you just haven't tried hard enough to get the desirable results, so you should apply yourself more. Practice makes perfect."

 

[Doreen]

Oh. That's like saying "If you only ate enough chocolate, and with the right attitude, then you would see there is true satisfaction in chocolate. But as it is, you just haven't tried hard enough to get the desirable results, so you should apply yourself more. Practice makes perfect."

That is not a that. It became that that for you in this situation. For me that that me like a release in some situations. In others it felt exactly like what you said above.

I'll take a different tack.

Let's say, during the night, you underwent the change in yourself you desire - if that is an idea you can apply to your situation. You wake up tomorrow and you do not know this miracle occurred. What signs would there be that the change took place? How would you notice? How would others notice that this desired change took place in you and what would they notice?

 

[wynn]

Let's say, during the night, you underwent the change in yourself you desire - if that is an idea you can apply to your situation. You wake up tomorrow and you do not know this miracle occurred. What signs would there be that the change took place? How would you notice? How would others notice that this desired change took place in you and what would they notice?

This is a useful line of questions, thank you.

First of all, I would get up early. I would not feel tired. I would feel confident that my life has meaning, and I would look forward to the day ahead of me. I would begin attending to my duties. Not necessarily all polyanna exuberant, but positive, calm, composed, focused.
There wouldn't be a moment of time in the day that I wouldn't know what to do or sit around idly.
Others would notice this by seeing that I do all or most of my work on schedule, that I am rarely late for my terms and appointments.

 

[iceaura]

There wouldn't be a moment of time in the day that I wouldn't know what to do or sit around idly.
Others would notice this by seeing that I do all or most of my work on schedule, that I am rarely late for my terms and appointments.

You are sure that if your life acquired meaning that it wouldn't do so by dispensing with terms and appointments revealed, in this new light, to be empty?

My own suspicion is that upon that kind of enlightenment the first thing most people would do is quit their job.

 

[Mercy Angel]

Go within... all the answers for you are there. The various "holy" books are merely a series of individual experiences interpreted by others and written down by still others. The original experience is lost, and it is impossible to experience the experience of another anyway. We all have our own path and would do well to locate and stay on it rather than rehash religions and the man-made concepts which are as far from the divine as one can get! Religions are based on fear. Where there is divine love there is no fear.

 

[sine.nomine]

It sounds to me like you need to feel better about yourself. Eat better, get out of the house, help your friend move into his new apartment, enjoy life, be curious, camp out, volunteer, do what you feel is right. As for religion, once you take out the dogma, they all have similar core themes (for the most part).

 

[lightgigantic]

In what sense does it depend on me?

Is this jaundice subject to an overnight change; that I am supposed to have a desire so strong to turn this jaundice around that it can be done overnight, a matter of instant action, or nothing?

generally we experience relief from jaundice gradually

Because whenever I hear this "it depends on you", there seems to be the implication "if you really wanted it, you would do it instantly and succeed fully, and if you don't, it means that you don't really want it, and deserve contempt".

even if you really wanted to get free of jaundice, it wouldn't happen over night. If you intermittently apply yourself, you get mixed results.

How do I "simply add K."?

Should I write, stitch or carve K.'s name or initial on every item that is in my possession?

Its more along the lines of adding to one's actions .... so its more a focus on what one is doing with t he objects

Moreover, there are at least two major problems here for me:

1. I do not actually know that K. is the SPoG, or that Vedic scriptures are relevant. Perhaps it is all a hoax, like so many other supposedly spiritual things, and I will just be fooled again.
So "simply adding K." would mean to unconditionally trust that it isn't a hoax. I don't have such trust, nor do I see how to attain it.

Therefore it is only practicable to add according to your capacity
IOW to the degree that you know K is the SPoG, is the degree that you add.

2. Given my experiences with those who claim to be K.'s devotees, I really do not think K. would want to have anything to do with me, and more likely preceives me as a nuisance, as something to get rid of. So why I should I try to force my presence onto someone who doesn't want me?

I think you are projecting a bit here

 

[wynn]

Its more along the lines of adding to one's actions .... so its more a focus on what one is doing with t he objects

Such as refraining from drinking coffee, or from wearing leather jackets?

Therefore it is only practicable to add according to your capacity
IOW to the degree that you know K is the SPoG, is the degree that you add.

In my case that would mean zero then, if I am the one to assess how much I know that K is the SPoG.

I think you are projecting a bit here

I would hope so. But surely the reactions one gets from religionists in some way reflect the way God is inclined (or disinclined) toward someone, do they not?

 

[lightgigantic]

Such as refraining from drinking coffee, or from wearing leather jackets?

actually its more about utilization than refraining

In my case that would mean zero then, if I am the one to assess how much I know that K is the SPoG.

not a complete zero

I would hope so. But surely the reactions one gets from religionists in some way reflect the way God is inclined (or disinclined) toward someone, do they not?

depends on the "some" of the some, one's control group one is using to base such assertions and also the expectations one is coming pre-packaged with

 

[wynn]

actually its more about utilization than refrainingh

Yes, I thought so. Such as "eat vegetarian food", "rise early" ...

not a complete zero

It seems like a zero to me.

I have no certainty that that which I think I know about God, indeed is knowledge of God. It may be, or not.

My standard for proper knowledge is that it must be both

1. knowledge of the truth (which is something anyone can have, at least to some degree; even a child can learn the scriptural verses and have knowledge that way)
and
2. knowledge that what is said to be the truth indeed is the truth and why it is the truth (which is something reserved for an omniscient entity or for someone who has a sufficiently high realization).


But perhaps this twofold standard is not the norm in theism?


One thing that I find very very strange is that it is said that the gopis did not actually know they were dancing with the SPoG. They were just irresistibly attracted to that young man and they acted on that attraction.

Which seems to imply that the second criterion above is not necessary for the execution of devotional service. (Although I am not sure the scenario applies in this world!)

depends on the "some" of the some, one's control group one is using to base such assertions and also the expectations one is coming pre-packaged wit

The majority have been displeased with me. The few that didn't are all online, and I don't know - perhaps if they knew me in person, they'd be as displeased as those who know me in person.

 

[wynn]

If you intermittently apply yourself, you get mixed results.

There is only so much teeth-gritting that I can bear.

I don't know how others did it or are doing it, and they seem to be unable or unwilling to relate to me.

To me, chanting is one of the most grim, frustrating activities. I feel viscerally sick and stressed out from it. My stomach hurts. If I chant in the morning, I am sure to feel like crap the whole day long.

I tell myself that I should "just do it" and that I should "have faith", but that mostly feels like banging my head up against a wall, literally.

 

[lightgigantic]

There is only so much teeth-gritting that I can bear.

I don't know how others did it or are doing it, and they seem to be unable or unwilling to relate to me.

To me, chanting is one of the most grim, frustrating activities. I feel viscerally sick and stressed out from it. My stomach hurts. If I chant in the morning, I am sure to feel like crap the whole day long.

I tell myself that I should "just do it" and that I should "have faith", but that mostly feels like banging my head up against a wall, literally.

I don't really know what would drive you to feel that way, but now that you mention it, I guess ultimately we just go where we feel.

For instance if someone just feels fine without adopting means aimed at surmounting their situation, they simply stay put.
Otherwise its just part of the sweat of application

 

[lightgigantic]

It seems like a zero to me.

I have no certainty that that which I think I know about God, indeed is knowledge of God. It may be, or not.

My standard for proper knowledge is that it must be both

1. knowledge of the truth (which is something anyone can have, at least to some degree; even a child can learn the scriptural verses and have knowledge that way)
and
2. knowledge that what is said to be the truth indeed is the truth and why it is the truth (which is something reserved for an omniscient entity or for someone who has a sufficiently high realization).


But perhaps this twofold standard is not the norm in theism?

so whats an example of something you already know?

One thing that I find very very strange is that it is said that the gopis did not actually know they were dancing with the SPoG. They were just irresistibly attracted to that young man and they acted on that attraction.

Which seems to imply that the second criterion above is not necessary for the execution of devotional service. (Although I am not sure the scenario applies in this world!)

even in this world, a person in a position of power tends to regard those that know them as a person, distinct from their position, as more intimate associates.




The majority have been displeased with me. The few that didn't are all online, and I don't know - perhaps if they knew me in person, they'd be as displeased as those who know me in person.[/QUOTE]