Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Actually they are not. Disbelief with motive can also be a religion.
http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/case/res_research.html
http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/case/res_research.html
What is the difference between Allopathy, Homeopathy and Ayurvedic medicens?
- Thread starter plakhapate
- Start date
Acutally, they are. You need to look to better sources. Meta-analysis means little or nothing when the basic research is crap.
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/
http://www.acsh.org/healthissues/newsID.632/healthissue_detail.asp
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#a2
(You'll note in this appendix the ridiculously small test groups.)
More the to point, however, the basic tenets of homeopathy are utterly absurd and have no scientific foundation. These being:
1. Disease is caused by a disruption in the "life force" and subsequent invasion of disease entities termed "miasms".
2. The "law of similars" otherwise known as "like cures like". Whereby a substance that mimics disease symptoms will empower the life force to reject the disease.
3. That a dilution will retain the properties of the substance being diluted even when the dilution is so great such that none of the original substance would be ingested. This is explained as a "spirit-like" healing force which is released from the substance into the dilution or that the water contains the "memory" or "vibration" from the diluted ingredient.
Given these unfounded fundamentals of homeopathy even any positive effect that might be found could only be attributed to coincidence.
~Raithere
If the doctor is not trained in all the three branches then patient has to do trial and error to find which branch is most suited for him.
For example for chronic disease allopathy can not give solutions where as Ayurveda can.
For physical injury , Allopathy is best.
For certain diseases Homeopathy is good.
Hence it absolutely essential to train the doctor in other branches at Master"s
Degree level.
Pls give your comments.
P.J.LAKHAPATE
plakhapate@rediffmail.com
kmguru
Staff member
Here is the interesting part. In Homeopathy, the higher the dilution, the higher the potency. For example, one little sugar ball of Hypericum 1M (St. Johns Wort) is supposed to have a million fold power. That is one part per million of say original one mcg of the product. That could be just one molecule of the product. And the claim that this molecule somehow picks up nuclear energy (extra energy from the nucleus of the molecule) by shaking and diluting....is well...your guess is as good as mine.
If that is not religion, what is?
If that is not religion, what is?
shear idiocy my friend
A couple of other idiocies that come from homopathics:
1) Homopathic head ache tablets say "take one for moderate head ache, for server take two". By there own theory it should be the other way around
2) Homopathic "meds" claim they have no side effects (because they are so diluted) yet they claim that the effects get stronger the more they are diluted which logically would mean they have MORE (or stronger) side effects
The only thing that homopathics actually got right is the placibo effect
A couple of other idiocies that come from homopathics:
1) Homopathic head ache tablets say "take one for moderate head ache, for server take two". By there own theory it should be the other way around
2) Homopathic "meds" claim they have no side effects (because they are so diluted) yet they claim that the effects get stronger the more they are diluted which logically would mean they have MORE (or stronger) side effects
The only thing that homopathics actually got right is the placibo effect
Ayurveda
Rocker: AYurveda is more than 1000 years old medicine system practised in India. Still more than 50 % of people in India have ayurveda as first choice of treatment. You must be surprised to know large number of concepts of allopathy especialy surgery has been developed from ayurveda.
Rocker: AYurveda is more than 1000 years old medicine system practised in India. Still more than 50 % of people in India have ayurveda as first choice of treatment. You must be surprised to know large number of concepts of allopathy especialy surgery has been developed from ayurveda.
placebo
Asguard: Placebo effect is true for both allopathy as well as homeopathy. Actually the term was coined by conventional allopathic medicine (CAM) system
Asguard: Placebo effect is true for both allopathy as well as homeopathy. Actually the term was coined by conventional allopathic medicine (CAM) system
life force
raithere: life force is nothing but what is called as 'energy' in allopathy, 'chi' in Chinese medicine, and 'prana' in ayurveda.
Different terms but carrries the same meaning
raithere: life force is nothing but what is called as 'energy' in allopathy, 'chi' in Chinese medicine, and 'prana' in ayurveda.
Different terms but carrries the same meaning
Kmguru: These mega results are all there but you need to have an eyes of patient who have gone to visit a homeopath for their medical problems. Ask millions of people in the world who have been benefited from homeopathy. May be you are not lucky enough to get a chance to treat your medical problems using homeopathy, that's why you did not know the immense benefits of it.
kmguru: So you agree that mother tinctures, and dilutions upto 3X works.
Fine.
That means according to you homeopathy works but not all potencies.
Fine.
That means according to you homeopathy works but not all potencies.
This is not surprising in the least. Many aspects of modern medicinal practice originated as folk-remedies, herbal medicine, or other "alternative" practices. The difference is that proper medicine is scientific in nature. Its hypotheses are clearly defined and rigorously tested. What does not work is tossed aside, that which has proven effect is retained.
I would highly contest that the term as used in allopathy is equivalent to chi or prana. It's all well and fine to give alternative terms, but it still amounts to nonsense.
Define what "life force" is. What differentiates it from energy as the term is understood in physics? What are its properties? How is it measured? How does it behave? Where does it come from, how is it transmitted, and where does it go when something dies?
Quack medicine and pseudo science often misuse the concept of energy as if it is some sort of ethereal power source, a source of life or health, or a conscious force. For a very thorough article regarding its misuse and specific reference to the terms you use look here:
http://www.theness.com/articles.asp?id=65
This is known as anecdotal evidence. It is supremely suspect and highly prone to error (this is simply a statistical fact). When proper studies are performed homeopathy comes up sorely lacking.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/the-pseudoscience-behind-homeopathy.ars/1
~Raithere
plakhapate,
Your argument is a fallacy, it assume that the other 2 branch have medical value, since they don't its a non sequitur. I like saying chemist need to know alchemy, astronomers need to know astrology, and psychologist need to know telepathy!
Your argument is a fallacy, it assume that the other 2 branch have medical value, since they don't its a non sequitur. I like saying chemist need to know alchemy, astronomers need to know astrology, and psychologist need to know telepathy!
kmguru
Staff member
I worked with a state registered homeopathic doctor many many years ago while finishing my degree in Biochemistry before going to engineering and therefore have done extensive tests.
The reason mother tincture work is the same as Ayurveda. That is because of the active chemicals in them. In USA, the companies take the herbs and concentrate the active ingredients. For example:
In USA, St. Johns Wort is standardized to 0.3% Hypercin which is the active chemical for mood enhancement.
In Homeopathy, it is called Hypericum. The doctor prescribed them to females at a combination of mother tincture and 3X. We tried at 30 and 200. The results were not very positive. That is sometimes it worked, other times it did not. From hind sight - it was probably placebo.
The catch here is that for mild symptoms, herbal products does help - especially when concentrated - for specific symptoms. But severe cases they do not work - you have to go to the next level like Ativan or Xanax. Unless of course you drink a gallon of Hypericum everyday.
What the pharmaceutical companies do is look at the herbal molecule and using combinatorial chemistry find analog chemicals that has a stronger reaction in the body. Sometimes you have side effects, other times you take just a small amount to get the job done.
My statement still stands that beyond mother tincture - the very high dilutions are bull shit. Even at MT, it all depends on the amount of active chemicals present and what it does.
There is a homeopathy medicine called Anacardium. That is indicted for memory loss etc. Well that is Cashews. So eat some raw cashews everyday and you get more DHA, Omega-3 etc, improve your neural transmitters, than buying Homeopathy.
Homeopathy does use poisons to cure certain symptoms. Never take mother tincture on those. You will be dead. The poisons at a dilution works like allergy shots. So, they could be good for some allergies.
Raithere thats not actually 100% true
MOST med is based on scientific study but not all, thats why there is a huge push for more evidence based med
take CPR for instance. untill last year CPR was 15:2 which came from ONE study on animals (i belive). No randomised controled trials had been conducted until recently when a massive study was conducted (i know this because SAAS was involved in the trial) and it found that a ratio of 30:2 works better.
there is also a study currently being conducted on wether its better to shock pts who have been in VF for a long period of time without CPR imidiatly or for paramedics to start CPR to reperfuse the heart BEFORE shocking them.
Emergency med is actually the LEAST studied of all the areas because until recently it wasnt a university course so there were no PHD's, masters ect in EM
MOST med is based on scientific study but not all, thats why there is a huge push for more evidence based med
take CPR for instance. untill last year CPR was 15:2 which came from ONE study on animals (i belive). No randomised controled trials had been conducted until recently when a massive study was conducted (i know this because SAAS was involved in the trial) and it found that a ratio of 30:2 works better.
there is also a study currently being conducted on wether its better to shock pts who have been in VF for a long period of time without CPR imidiatly or for paramedics to start CPR to reperfuse the heart BEFORE shocking them.
Emergency med is actually the LEAST studied of all the areas because until recently it wasnt a university course so there were no PHD's, masters ect in EM
I agree, thank you for the correction. I had pharmaceuticals, in particular, in mind. Many procedures are a matter of best practice, experience, and indeed skill. Still, even these procedures are open to study and revision as you describe.
~Raithere
Fallacy: Appeal to tradition
"Flat earth theory is thousands of years old too! There for a must be right!"
"Vitalism has been around since the ancient philosophers and it spawned modern chemistry, therefor it must be right!"
or
"Flat earth theory is thousands of years old too! There for a must be right!"
"Vitalism has been around since the ancient philosophers and it spawned modern chemistry, therefor it must be right!"
or
Last edited:
Many "CAM" as you call them show results greater then placebo. Placebo effect was coined because in "CAM" they actually test to see if something works by comparing against a control (the placebo) if the medicine works as well as the placebo then it does not work, if it works better by a statistically valid amount then the medicine works.
Fallacy: Appeal to Popularity
"Millions of people beleive Santa give them gifts, therefor they must be right!"
or
"Ask millions of people in the world who have been benefited from homeopathy"
My father is a major Homeopathy buff, he tried it on me, to no affect, if you believe - you'll think it helps, if you don't - it does nothing, hence placebo!
Last edited:
kmguru
Staff member
The same can be said for various religions.
Lucky? My Indian friend's Dad died due to heart attack who was under a homeopathy doctor's supervision for 4 years. Off course, you could say, that the doctor did not know what he was doing....but his Dad was taking all the medicines that the Homeopathy Materia Medica suggests...
one could cause immense damage to ones health by following such nonsense.
I suggest, if you want to experiement, go for any non-life threathening issues...like Erectile Disfunction....I bet there is no such homeopathy cure, otherwise people will be peddling it bigtime....in Wal-Mart!