what is religious experience?

[Cris]

Jenyar,

In that light, maybe it was a mistake to opt for the "red crescent" to make the movement more acceptible outside christianity - it could have been a more neutral symbol, and it reinforced the christian connotation with the simple red cross - but unfortunately symbols are rarely without emotional meaning.

From what I can determine the red cross was never intended as a Christian symbol. It is just the inverse color of the Swiss flag, although that had Christian roots. But the modern movement has maintained a strict policy of religious independence and clearly state that the red cross is not an indication of religion. They are currently in negotiations to instigate an entirely new neutral emblem that will not be confused with potential religious connotations.

The Red Cross was established by a devout Christian, Henri Dunant.

Well that is not clear. According to his biography he was certainly born into a Christian family, and it would appear somewhat like me, that he actively pursued religious interests when he was young. But the founding of the Red Cross seemed to have had nothing to do with Christianity or religion. This began entirely for humanitarian reasons. That he was probably a Christian may or may not have had anything to do with these actions. I could not find any reference to his possible religious beliefs playing a part in the founding of the Red Cross.

 

[SnakeLord]

I have no problem with looking for answers, but you can do all the research you want - it will only confirm what you already know, it won't give you special knowledge about God

A minute ago you thought you knew what i was thinking, now we've gone one step further you think you know what i know or dont know.

One truth doesn't not make another false. Jesus did not resurrect himself, God resurrected Him, as He will resurrect us when the time comes. And God is not "out there" anymore, He has come among us in Spirit.

Thats your belief and interpretation of things, mine might differ. there's nothing to suggest you're right. There's nothing to suggest you're wrong either but thats exactly why i must ask for myself. I don't want your interpretation and belief, i need to find my own. It is the style with which people write as if it's absolute fact when it isn't. You believe god ressurrected him and will ressurect us etc etc etc but it's not undeniable fact. The possibility of it is not good enough for me, i need facts. MarkM claims things as facts because African people have come back from the dead. I agree that is bizarre but it's not a fact to anything other than 'strange shit happens'. As i said, people find their own facts and accept them. I personally can't do that. I need real truth, real fact. We obviously all have different opinions on what 'fact' means. This is all fine but as i stated i will try to find fact the way i understand the word fact.

There are accounts of heavenly beings sleeping with "the daughters of earth" in the Bible. I don't know what to make of them, so I am also at point 3 about it - but I know that it won't make a difference to what I do know about God though His son

Just because something might not make a difference it means we should just ignore it? If you're at point 3 who knows what answers you may find in the end? They may not be the answers you want or expect- we all face that dilemma- but if we dont ask we'll never know, and if we'll never know we can never assume something to be fact. It is this exact thing which causes the problems:

There are accounts of heavenly beings sleeping with 'the daughters of earth' in the bible ------- So what do we make of that? Because we can't find an answer we just stick to the other stories in the bible and dismiss that as irrelevant? Who knows what it really signifies?

but I know that it won't make a difference to what I do know about God though His son------- How do you know that?

 

[Jenyar]

Most of the time being a Christian requires you not to proclaim it. After all, we don't do something good for our own benefit, but for the benefit of other people, by Jesus' example, and to the glory of God. I can understand that you don't want to attribute every good thing to God, but I do - and I have reason to. I'm not trying to claim the Red Cross for Christianity or even for religion, but I am trying to say that it is one of the fruits Jesus spoke of. Who eats from it after it has ripened makes no difference. The same with Jesus - no religion can 'claim' Him to be theirs, because He was the fruit of God and Israel, but He has presented Himself to still the hunger of everybody who 'eats from Him'.

 

[SVRP]

My personal belief which has taken me 17 years to firmly establish is that mary was in fact not human. She left a dying planet which exploded, (the bright star the kings followed to find jesus). he could do things which we deemed as miracles and could in fact ressurrect. Stories abound in sumerian writing of such events performed by the gods. Those gods were mortals but there were many things they could do we would now consider as impossible.

So because they could ressurrect it should now be instantly undeniable that aliens created us and our planet? Remember it's a belief and the road to truth isnt as easy as saying: "God does not need me to prove He exists." Maybe he/it/she/whatever doesnt need to prove anything to you, but for any credibility to be passed you must prove it.

Excuse me, SnakeLord, but I must ask some questions out of curiosity in regards to your belief. Please understand this is the only reason for the following questions.
What are the facts that support your belief? Where did these aliens come from? Did they evolve from lower life forms, created by God, or did they always exist? Where is the reference to this alien DNA in the Holy Grail? And is the reference trustworthy? Or are you still in the process to find the facts to support your belief?
I am sure you understand that to support your own belief is very difficult, and finding facts for it is extremely difficult.

And in regards to legal proof from eyewitnesses written thousands of years ago, any attorney will tell you it is admisable in a court of law as long as the document is authentic and the life of the witness supports it.

I spoke to a young girl several years ago who had been abducted and raped by aliens. She drew pictures and relayed in detail events and happenings. We have a choice here:

1) We dismiss her claims and regard her as a liar
2) We just accept her claim and agree 100% that it's now total and utter fact
3) We ask questions and search for answers. As i've now said a thousand times- we're very unlikely to find those answers but that doesn't mean we can't ask the questions.

For scenerio 3 - Wouldn't one of these questions be what was her life like before the abduction, and what is her life like after the abduction? In truth her life would be scrutinized to see if she was trustworthy. Has she given fanciful stories in the past? Does she maintain the same story after her event with the same detail? With the answers to these questions it would be known an event, like an abduction, had occurred or not.
The same scrutiny can be placed on the lives of the disciples of Jesus. There lives were profoundly changed and they maintained their testimony even to their deaths.

 

[SnakeLord]

For scenerio 3 - Wouldn't one of these questions be what was her life like before the abduction, and what is her life like after the abduction? In truth her life would be scrutinized to see if she was trustworthy. Has she given fanciful stories in the past? Does she maintain the same story after her event with the same detail? With the answers to these questions it would be known an event, like an abduction, had occurred or not.

The same rule applies to the authors of the bible- people we can only speculate about. Have you scrutinized their lives? Did you personally know them?

During medievil times people spoke about great fire breathing dragons. We can't just assume complete trust in them, even though there were here long after the authors of the bible and we know a lot more about them. All we have to go on is the word of people we know nothing about. There's nothing to suggest these people were not melanin abusers, people with great imaginations and the compelling urge to lie or any one of a number of reasons. We count it as evidence, not proof, not fact. I spoke to this girl on numerous occasions and i trusted her. Because i trusted her doesn't mean she was telling the truth. It's amazing what people can hide from other people who's to say anyone that would scrutinize the bible authors would make the right assumptions about them? Please pay attention to my word: assumption. That's all it ever is. Of course that's not to say you should instantly disregard everything and anything, it's to say you shouldn't instantly accept everything as fact.

"what are the facts that support your belief?" ---------- This is not so easy to answer. It's not something that can be summed up in a few paragraphs, pretty much like every other belief i guess. My book will go into this in great depth however. It explains the beginnings of my belief when i was a mere child and how through the years evidence has arrived to suggest plausability. Not absolute undeniable fact, just the possiblity.

My first problem i encountered at the age of 10 was i had no record of a missing planet. It seemed very likely at the time there would be no records of the cosmos considering such things like our only finding pluto in 1930.... The chances of someone knowing about it thousands of years ago was close to impossible. Eventually purely by chance i heard of the sumerians writings about the cosmos. So accurate were they that to not consider it amazing has no place. The only problem with their records was the mention of a planet that isn't there. It's missing. Some people like Sitchin and his devout followers believes its flying around the cosmos as a rogue planet. To me it was the beginnings of possible evidence supporting my belief. The belief i have and search to find answers for is not for the world or anyone other than myself. I do not advertise it to get people to join or care if anyone else agrees. As i said to Jenyar the searching for answers i do alone. We all find our own answers- this is mine. I might get into more of this with you via email or something- i dont like writing it on a public forum

"Where did these aliens come from?" ----------- Space. We are but a baby in comparison to what lies out there in space. An endless realm of planets, suns and whatever else.... What do we really know about anything in comparison to what these suns and planets have witnessed? If there is life far beyond ours out there imagine how wrong we most probably will be about everything we have come to regard as fact. Since the (scientific) dawn of mankind there have been so many claims to the existence of visiting extra terretrial entities it's impossible to just brush aside... Again all it does it lead to more and more questions but im fine with that. Even the very mention of god..... What really 'is' god? A spirit entity, an alien, a creation of our own subconcious thoughts? A he? A she? An it? If we did one day encounter aliens on a 1 to 1 basis and they told us the history of things it would be their history, and not neccesarily the complete truth. If they were 1,000,000 years older than our species and had a completely different god would you have to accept their god as truth over yours? Of course not.. again it's just a life of questions without answers.

"Did they evolve from lower life forms, created by God, or did they always exist?" ------------ Who am i to say? I think the last section applies very well to this bit too. We are but children in a universe of grandfathers.

"Where is the reference to this alien DNA in the Holy Grail?" ------- Well for years i wondered the fascination with the holy grail and how it caught Jesus' blood at the crucifiction. Man's interest in blood could possibly be because of it's powers. I read a website about a guy called Wyatt? or something who had apparently found 2000 year old 'alive' blood at the apparent burial site of Jesus. It was said to have 24 chromosomes- 23 from mary, 1 from God. He claimed this to be absolute evidence of the existence of God and Jesus being the human form of God. The guy died and left this blood 'hidden' from the world. For what reason would a man do that with such an important find? Even if he did find it whats to suggest the 1 chromosome belonged to God, and not just an alien? Why would God even have dna? That would go further in suggesting mortality than anything else. I suppose that's a debate in itself.

"Or are you still in the process to find the facts to support your belief?" -------- Forever. I can't just believe something without searching for evidence, without hoping for facts. It's a search that will take my whole life and yield nothing, but i acknowledge and accept that.

"I am sure you understand that to support your own belief is very difficult, and finding facts for it is extremely difficult." ------------ I am sure you understand also that to support your own belief is very difficult, and finding facts for it is as impossible as me finding facts for mine.

"And in regards to legal proof from eyewitnesses written thousands of years ago, any attorney will tell you it is admisable in a court of law as long as the document is authentic and the life of the witness supports it." ------------ I emailed my brother in law who is a barrister. His reply was pretty short, not much more than 'lol' actually.

The same scrutiny can be placed on the lives of the disciples of Jesus. There lives were profoundly changed and they maintained their testimony even to their deaths -------------- There are many many people who have died but maintained testimony of things. It doesn't make them factual.

 

[Cris]

Jenyar,

After all, we don't do something good for our own benefit,

But that is blatantly false. If you are a Christian then you are simply following the rules of your religion in order to obtain the ultimate reward - eternal life. Contrast that with the atheist who has no expectations and who when helping others does so because it is the right thing to do and not because of a command from a fantasy god or of an expectation of receiving a fabulous reward.

but for the benefit of other people, by Jesus' example, and to the glory of God.

And why is the glory of God important? Isn’t this like giving a dictator even more wealth than he can possibly use.

I can understand that you don't want to attribute every good thing to God, but I do

Then you significantly devalue the true nature of humanity. Many people by their own efforts do many great things. It is due to the ingenuity, creativity and love that man has for his fellow man that makes humanity such a worthwhile cause. If you claim that all good ultimately stems from a god then man has no inherent value in his own right. Man then becomes just a moronic mindless machine, yet Christians then have the audacity to say while good is the realm of God evil is the realm of man, we apparently have the free will to choose to do evil, but if we claim ‘good’ for ourselves then somehow that is the realm of the deity and wasn’t the result of our own actions. This is just more of the idiocy of Christianity.

True humility does not brag about its humility.

The truly honest person does the right thing even when there are no witnesses and when no one will ever know.

 

[man_of_jade]

Sorry, but I do have to interject here.

But that is blatantly false. If you are a Christian then you are simply following the rules of your religion in order to obtain the ultimate reward - eternal life. Contrast that with the atheist who has no expectations and who when helping others does so because it is the right thing to do and not because of a command from a fantasy god or of an expectation of receiving a fabulous reward.

I am a christian, and I do good things because its the right thing to do, and because it feels good to them, not because I want eternal life. You claim that most Christians do good deeds simply to get into heaven, but ask a few about what they were thinking when they gave a homeless person $20 or something, I'm pretty sure that wont respond "Im trying to get into heaven."

 

[MarkM]

In reply to Chris's comment

After all, we don't do something good for our own benefit,
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[Chris’s comment]
But that is blatantly false. If you are a Christian then you are simply following the rules of your religion in order to obtain the ultimate reward - eternal life.


No, that is legalism. There are many Bible Legalist's of course who reduce God to a set of rules (the whole slew of cults for example), but the core of Christianity is finding out that WE HAVE MADE IT, not because of what we have done or do (rules and deeds), but because of what God did for us. The love comes into our heart because we realize "HE first loved us-and saved us" and then based on this realization; we slowly begin to love others. It is an inward transformation not a conforming. The Bible declares there is absolutely no way for us to save ourselves. It boldly declares "It is by GRACE (and grace alone) that you have been saved, not by works (deeds-rules) so that no one can boast, it is the GIFT from God."

 

[Q25]

religious experience

never thought this subject would get so many interesting responses,thank you all,
however,could you plz NOT write about second/third hand experiences,
like those of Jesus,you were not there,were you?so whats the point?
thnx again.

 

[SanDolphin61]

More smoke and mirrors

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Who cares what Sitchen says? He has his beliefs as do i.
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Since he is the man who deciphered these texts and has done exhaustive research in this area. I would.

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Im currently in consultation with some of englands finest astronomers and in talks via email with nasa.Whatever they say is still not going to be definite proof or otherwise.
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This will not prove your theory about Jesus and Mary.

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And how do you know Sitchen wouldn't support it? You spoken to him recently? Im about to email a friend of his who maintains his website and see if i can get his views on it. Until then you do not have right to say what he will support or not.
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I read his book that deals exclusively with this. Maybe you have heard of it? "The Twelth Planet". I have already been to one of his "Official Websites" Since I have read his book on this and continue to read his articles I think I can state that he has never made this claim and quite frankly if he does he will lose all credibility I have given him.

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There's also a big difference between theory and belief. What i stated above was my belief which you think is easy to walk all over and claim because one man would disagree that makes the belief worthless.. But whatever, it's all ok.
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I stated the expert on these texts does not agree.......
That one man has written eight books on the subject and devoted his life to this research. I consider him far more of an authority than you. To my knowledge his study and relationtionship from Sumerian texts to the Bible "only" deal with the Apocryphal or Psuedopigraphic texts of the Bible. There is a reason for this.

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You managed to boil my full blown page into a couple of sentences?
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My answer didn't require more than a couple of sentences.

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I doubt you even read much of it, if any.
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as I told you twice now..........I only answered your one post as honestly as I could as a Christian.

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I've noticed we have a language barrier between us, i'm not sure where you're from but you're struggling to understand my english and turning things into completely different arguments. But to help you out here is a quote made by you:
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Here lets put the entire quote from you and me:

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The twelfth planet is but a small part of a larger whole. I used to be just like you... when i read the bible it was really trippy to say the least, but i really don't think it's the be all and end all of the questions to god.

You don't know me well enough to make that statement and really seems to me a put down because I read and study scripture.
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I used to be like you........hmmmmm this seems like a put down to me
or maybe you were just being condescending.

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As for hating christians... I use the term: religious people in my posts. I do not usually specify on particular religion. What makes you think i was talking about christians? That was a rather bigheaded assumption on your part i guess. I suggest you actually read posts before making wild assumptions and guesswork based on nothing.
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Then by all means please specify.........since I am a Christian who answered your questions about requirements to get into heaven among other things and then you came back with............

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It is the blatant self righteous behaviour of religious people that angers anti-religious people. It is the narrow mindedness religious people show and accuse others of that same thing.

Religious people then resort to preaching scripture that is so open to interpretation but still fail to ever answer a question.

The excuses of 'god will be the one judging in the end, not me' are commonplace and only ever show more of that narrow mindedness and self righteousness i speak of.

Many religious people say not to take some parts of the bible seriously, (the parts religious folk cannot explain), so what makes you think you have it right?

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Of course you had quite a few other comments about Church's and prayer ( this kinda leaves Moslem religions out) What scripture were you discussing? and there is that pesky little bible word also. Since this is but a small part of what you posted in answer to my post please explain how I should look at it as anything else.

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As for people who believe in 'jesus', so do i.. I firmly believe he existed, got crucified and ressurrected. Of course if you actually read my posts instead of just making it up as you go along you'd already know that and wouldn't have made such a stupid statement.
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I read your theory of how Christ got here and told you I don't believe your rendition of this story and quite frankly is a house built on sand. Reading anymore of your theory on this won't be necessary. The only one making anything up is you.:bugeye:

 

[MarkM]

A true, life altering, religious experience, miracle.

When I was 15 years old, during the summer of 1982, I experienced a forever life altering miracle, first hand. My Father (a somewhat hardcore, non emotional X-Marine) took me to Yosemite National Park. We drove from Portland Oregon and met up with his best friend (a mountain climbing buddy named Hank) in the heart of that beautiful Park late at night. That night, my dad told me that he was going to get up very early to go off and climb “The Royal Arches” with his friend Hank. He said he would entrust me to roam freely throughout the park for the whole day, all by myself. My dad gave me very clear instructions: to get up in the morning and put all our belongings in the truck; and he gave me his keys and wallet (a new and welcomed responsibility for me). He said that he and his friend would leave very early in the morning to climb, and that He should be back by nightfall. He said if he was later than nightfall, not to not panic, but sleep in the truck, and he would absolutely be back early the next morning. He also said that if he was not back by morning; to go to the ranger station to call in an emergency.
I got up, put all the camping supplies in the bed of the truck, and then enjoyed a free day of investigating the park. In the afternoon a violent thunderstorm rolled in and it rained in a torrential down-pour. As I made my way back to my dad’s truck for refuge, I realized I had locked the keys and his wallet in the cab of the truck! I was very concerned about this because if my Father got back after a very hard and tiring mountain climb, he would be in no mood to deal with the scenario. I feared my dad and dreaded this thought.
After failing at the “hanger through the window” trick, I climbed into the bed of the truck under the canopy. On top of all the camping supplies, I squeezed myself forward until I reached the window that was between the cab and the bed. This window was firmly locked shut and I could see the clamp-like lock on the inside through the double glass. In an attempt to get into the cab I banged on the sliding window with my hand and then attempted to force my hanger wire through the crack to try to reach the keys. This failed completely due to the fact that I could not even begin to get the wire through the crack; it was tight. The window was clamped shut and there was nothing I could do about it.
Finally I came to the realization that there were no more options. As I laid there in the back of the truck with my face about 12 inches from the sliding window that was preventing me from getting into the cab, I began to dread my dads wrath.
Four years earlier (when I was 11 years old) my father told me about Jesus and God. He taught me to pray when in serious trouble. Although it had been years since I had prayed; praying is what I began to do out of desperation. I put my face down into the sleeping bag mattress that I was lying on (which was on top of all the camping equipment) and I began to beg God and Jesus to help me somehow. I began to cry “Jesus please help me, God please help me.” After I prayed like this for about one or two minutes, I suddenly heard a voice say “Look up.” I looked up at the window and to my absolute awe, shock, and thrill; the window between the bed of the truck and the cab was completely open! Each side of the window was pushed about 6 inches to the left and the other to the right, leaving a space big enough (about 12 inches) for me to crawl through, to get the keys!
I freaked! I started crying (out of joy and disbelief) and praised Jesus and God! Needless to say, I got the wallet and keys and took off throughout the park determined to proclaim to everyone “God is real, God is real!” I could hardly contain myself the rest of the day but I did not end up preaching to anyone because somehow I knew that people would think I was nuts.
Eventually, my Father and Hank got back at about 9:00pm and when they came up on me waiting at the truck, I saw them and blurted out “Dad, a miracle happened, a miracle happened!” I quickly told the story and my dad was struck with amazement. Hank (a PHD / philosopher) looked at me and immediately dismissed me as being a delusional nut.
The next day I remember being driven all over Yosemite with my dad and Hank as they argued vehemently about God. Naively, I thought it was so strange that anyone would think I was lying or delusional. While they intellectualized, debated, and argued about the existence and non existence of God, I just sat back enjoying the peace, joy, and security that came from my experience.
20 years later this miracle is as fresh in my memory as if it was yesterday. It is one of my favorite experiences I have had, and I hold on to it (and others like it) tightly when going through tragedy and various tough times.
My dad is still alive and still climbs mountains with his best friend. My dad still has faith in Jesus Christ and my dad’s best friend Hank is still an agnostic.

 

[Jenyar]

Cris,

When you don't believe that God created mankind, you isolate humanity from God and then glory become either man's or God's. But I believe God created me, and therefore everything I am able to do is to His credit, and everything I fail to do is to my shame. This, however, has nothing to do with 'the ultimate reward', which I have already received though Christ. Nothing I do can add to that gift in any way - and one can never earn a gift. cf. MarkM's comment.

I do not add to God's glory, I acknowledge to Him that which already belongs to Him. That's also why I can give thanks to Him for everything in my life. If I withhold or credit to myself any glory, I steal it from Him.

 

[Cris]

Mark,

I’ll repeat – If you are a Christian then you are simply following the rules of your religion in order to obtain the ultimate reward - eternal life.

No, that is legalism.

Consider the laws regarding road speed limits. One can obey the law because one believes it is of real benefit to everyone, or one might obey the law because of the fear of being caught by the police.

Either way there is always an incentive to obey based on personal reward or fear of punishment.

In the case for Christianity there is no difference. Christians take the actions they do because of the expectation of an ultimate personal benefit.

There are many Bible Legalist's of course who reduce God to a set of rules (the whole slew of cults for example),

It looks like you are to trying to distance yourself from these people by making their rules appear cold and clinical. This indeed does not sound very appealing but -

..but the core of Christianity is finding out that WE HAVE MADE IT, not because of what we have done or do (rules and deeds), but because of what God did for us.

And the way you discover that YOU HAVE MADE IT is by giving yourself up to emotional frenzy, praying to God for revelations, asking Jesus for forgiveness, dispensing with reasoned thought, etc. These remain just another set of rules that are now more emotionally charged. Either way you are still following a set of rules.

The love comes into our heart because we realize "HE first loved us-and saved us" and then based on this realization; we slowly begin to love others.

The ‘love comes’ (an expected and hoped for benefit) because ‘we realize’ (a rule to be followed), and ‘begin to love others’ (another rule).

It is an inward transformation not a conforming.

Look at the speed limit example – one obeys because you see a benefit, or you conform because of fear of punishment. You offer no distinction but have just wrapped up the reality in more colorful and emotive language in the hope of making it appear less clinical. The end result is that you expect to benefit personally, and that is the overriding incentive for your actions.

The Bible declares there is absolutely no way for us to save ourselves.

This is classic propaganda.

It boldly declares "It is by GRACE (and grace alone) that you have been saved, not by works (deeds-rules) so that no one can boast, it is the GIFT from God."

But to receive the gift (the hoped for personal benefit) you must take certain actions, these, whichever way you want to phrase it represent the rules of Christianity.

So once again I’ll repeat – If you are a Christian then you are simply following the rules of your religion in order to obtain the ultimate reward - eternal life.

 

[Cris]

Jenyar,

When you don't believe that God created mankind, you isolate humanity from God and then glory become either man's or God's.

And why is that a problem?

But I believe God created me, and therefore everything I am able to do is to His credit, and everything I fail to do is to my shame.

But believing something doesn’t make it true. This is just your personal fantasy.

This, however, has nothing to do with 'the ultimate reward', which I have already received though Christ.

It has everything to do with the ultimate reward. You are totally indoctrinated since you are convinced that you will survive death. This is the objective of every major religion.

Nothing I do can add to that gift in any way - and one can never earn a gift. cf. MarkM's comment.

But you have to follow the rules to get there.

If I withhold or credit to myself any glory, I steal it from Him.

Then you are just a mindless drone who can have no intrinsic value. Why then do you exist?

 

[MarkM]

Reply to Chris's comments...

No, again the core of True Christianity is not about rules to get to heaven.

Yes, the cults (and some rigid Christian organizations) use fear and rules to manipulate and control people (totally counter to Jesus’ teachings). Actually, the Biblical Hebrew word for WITCHCRAFT is the exact same word as MANIPULATION; so it is very clear to see how serious God is against manipulation of any kind. These rigid cults reduce the Love Letter, to an intellectual code book of behavior.
But The "Good news" (The Gospel) stands: God has saved you by no merit of your own. "It is finished" as Jesus put it. To receive it we need to merely realize it. True realization of this potentially heals us of fear, condemnation, and shame and arrogance. (Following rules does the opposite).
By the way, the time in history when the so called "rules" came, (like the Ten Words - commands) it was a horrifically barbaric and cruel time and these words (some say commands - or rules) were gracious, and a GIFT for the HEALING of the nations. They were universally unheard of, cutting edge, filled with grace, and had the potential to heal and prosper. There was nothing like them in the entire ancient world. In essence they said "Love your neighbor the way you would want to be loved." And some people believed, and the world is a better place because of the few who work diligently at doing so.

 

[SnakeLord]

Since he is the man who deciphered these texts and has done exhaustive research in this area. I would.

There are people who have done exhaustive research into the christian theory and have deemed it a total fraud. Does that mean you would listen to them?

This will not prove your theory about Jesus and Mary.

And neither would it disprove it. I guess that's pretty much like your theory about jesus and mary.

I have already been to one of his "Official Websites"

Sitchin doesn't use the internet, have email or run websites. The only websites online are not official. The only one even regarded as close to official is the one run by erik parker, sitchins friend. However that's run by Sitchins friend, not Sitchin thus you have no room to make such bold, and frankly stupid comments.

I stated the expert on these texts does not agree.......
That one man has written eight books on the subject and devoted his life to this research. I consider him far more of an authority than you. To my knowledge his study and relationtionship from Sumerian texts to the Bible "only" deal with the Apocryphal or Psuedopigraphic texts of the Bible. There is a reason for this.

Of course i find that to be a 'put down' that you claim he's more of an authority than me.. i don't think you know me well enough to make such a statement.

There's several books i know of written by a rabbi who shows the christian religion is nothing more than garbage. He's much more of an authority on the subject than you. He's an expert on the texts, has written many books and devoted his life to his work. So... does that make you wrong? Don't be so silly in thinking because a guy writes books everyone else is instantly wrong. You're a fool.

My answer didn't require more than a couple of sentences.

Of course not, you've got nothing worthwhile to say.

as I told you twice now..........I only answered your one post as honestly as I could as a Christian.

Ah the christian theory.

I used to be like you........hmmmmm this seems like a put down to me
or maybe you were just being condescending.

Or maybe i was just saying i used to be like you? I too would go around claiming books to be 'trippy but hardly an answer'. It's weird though how you've come from the thought 'trippy but hardly an answer' to telling me how much we should listen to sitchin who's an expert. You've visted his official sites, *lol*, read all his 8 books, read all his articles and so on, but it's nothing more than just trippy and hardly an answer to anything.

You do change your mind quickly. But ya know Sitchin is not the only person who has interests in sumerian culture and beliefs.

Then by all means please specify.........since I am a Christian who answered your questions about requirements to get into heaven among other things and then you came back with............

The self righteous attitude of religious people is shown all through your own posts, why don't you actually read what you write then you might understand. Probably not though, it seems you have your head so buried in the sand you wouldn't know where to start looking.

I read your theory of how Christ got here and told you I don't believe your rendition of this story and quite frankly is a house built on sand. Reading anymore of your theory on this won't be necessary. The only one making anything up is you

example: Yeah well i read your theory on how christ got here and frankly think its utter bollocks. You're just deluding yourself because you're not strong enough to live without something mystical to blame all lifes hardships on.

Is it fair to say that? Is it fair to just dismiss a persons beliefs in this manner? Much that it makes no difference what your inwardly naive little mind thinks to me, you shouldn't be so quick in trying to dismiss anyone elses belief other than your own. Now sit and behave like a good child in wait for your messiah.

Oh and to anyone else: SanDolphin's got all the facts. We're wrong, he/she/it is right.

 

[SanDolphin61]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
There are people who have done exhaustive research into the christian theory and have deemed it a total fraud. Does that mean you would listen to them?
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Please list these credible authorities...................

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And neither would it disprove it. I guess that's pretty much like your theory about jesus and mary.
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You mean the Bibles story......I have never given a theory

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Sitchin doesn't use the internet, have email or run websites. The only websites online are not official. The only one even regarded as close to official is the one run by erik parker, sitchins friend. However that's run by Sitchins friend, not Sitchin
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http://www.sitchin.com/

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thus you have no room to make such bold, and frankly stupid comments.
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I have every right to make any comment I want

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Of course i find that to be a 'put down' that you claim he's more of an authority than me.. i don't think you know me well enough to make such a statement.
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I don't think you are an authority on anything. Just listening to you is enough to surmise this.

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There's several books i know of written by a rabbi who shows the christian religion is nothing more than garbage.
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Well than give me the name of this book and the name of the rabbi.

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He's much more of an authority on the subject than you. He's an expert on the texts, has written many books and devoted his life to his work.
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Well see........name of the book please

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Ah the christian theory.
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yes the one you hate with a passion

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Or maybe i was just saying i used to be like you? I too would go around claiming books to be 'trippy but hardly an answer'. It's weird though how you've come from the thought 'trippy but hardly an answer' to telling me how much we should listen to sitchin who's an expert. You've visted his official sites, *lol*, read all his 8 books, read all his articles and so on, but it's nothing more than just trippy and hardly an answer to anything.
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tsk tsk tsk you are a master of misinformation..........I haven't answered anything because you keep attacking.......Your not asking questions. But let me state for the 2nd or 3rd or however many....I have read the 12 planet (9 years ago) (thats 1 book) and I am reading The Stairway to heaven haven't finished it so I am not counting it. I keep up with his articles on the website above that I have provided a link to. I believe I mentioned Sitchen and his book (you certainly didn't) "because I thought this was where you were coming from"..........(ROFL!!)
I mentioned Sitchen as a reliable source that does not agree with you. This gives another source other than YOU to go and check out.........hmmmmm could this be the problem? since I am sick of this little game of smoke and mirrors and disinformation about my responses to you I will not be answering any future posts of yours. I would however like you to write down those sources you stated so proudly so that others can SEE just where you are coming from.

You can put whipped cream and a cherry on top of a turd and its still a turd.

 

[SnakeLord]

Please list these credible authorities...................

Willing to just sit down without doing any research? You find out, you research, you discover..... Don't sit their on your ass claiming you know fact from fiction if you are not even willing to look for yourself.

You mean the Bibles story......I have never given a theory

Well your current belief is completely founded on theory.

http://www.sitchin.com/

if you go to that site and actually look you'll find out it is run by Erik Parker, Sitchins friend. If you actually read what i wrote you will notice i said the only one even regarded as official is the one run by erik parker, Sitchins friend. Learn to read!

I have every right to make any comment I want

I guess you do, no matter how stupid they might be.

I don't think you are an authority on anything. Just listening to you is enough to surmise this.

Its becoming all the more obvious you haven't got the intellect to summise or state anything with any noticeable value. I have spoken to some nice people here- i ask questions, they answer- they ask questions, i answer and so on- which is the style of a mutual debate. Your only tactic seems to be to ridicule others beliefs if they conflict with your own, show true hypocricy from one sentence to the next and offer absolutely nothing of worth to offer. The majority of debates on these forums seem to be run with a 'live and let live' policy, but you on the other hand, the all knowing San dolphin, seem to think you are the ultimate authority on what's real or otherwise. I will excuse your naivety, you're probably quite young and still of a very precocious nature.

Well than give me the name of this book and the name of the rabbi.

Again it seems you do not have the energy to do your own research. You read a book, decided it was true and thats that. Then you say i have no authority? As some advice if you're too lazy to stand up and walk to the nearest book shop try amazon.com

Well see........name of the book please

That's the third time you've failed at finding anything out for yourself. You've read Sitchin and that's a start. Now continue in that fashion and eventually your opinions might change. You read one book and think you know it all? Boy oh boy.

yes the one you hate with a passion

I dont hate anything, except brussel sprouts and coffee flavoured chocolate.

tsk tsk tsk you are a master of misinformation..........

Either that or you're unable to grasp the concept of simple english.

You can put whipped cream and a cherry on top of a turd and its still a turd.

Actually it's a whipped cream and cherry turd. You can look at the very basics of something, which is what your above quote suggests or you can look further than that. The choice is yours.

 

[man_of_jade]

Cris;
Youve made the claim several times that religon is only about eternal life. Can you PROVE it? Support that up with some evidence.

 

[SanDolphin61]

Originally posted by Persol
SanDolp,
I'd probably respond to your post, but I can't tell who made what comments.

I can't figure out how to get it to quote. Can you help me out here or is there somewhere that explains how to do it.