what is religious experience?

MarkM again

Snake Lord, sorry about your loss. I came to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord when I was 10. My parents divorced and I was living with my dad. He was raised Catholic but didn't really believe and did not practice his faith. My mother left him and he was devastated. On the way home one night he tried to kill himself by racing his car and then turning off the road into some trees at a high speed. To make a long story short, the steering wheel would not turn no matter how hard he tried. He came home and for the first time in many years he cried, and cried out to God (in whom he knew virtually nothing about). Jesus appeared in the flesh to him and he was a believer from that day to today. He did not tell me the story until about 5 years ago as I enquired about why he told me about Jesus when I was 10. My dad cried as he told me the story. He is a hardcore marine and never had I ever seen him cry until that day and never since. So I know he was not bullshitting.
All I remember is him telling me the basics. God loves me, Jesus died for my sins, He's forgiven me, and that if I was ever in need because of trouble/danger and no one was there to help me-to cry out to Him and He would be there.
A year later I was in trouble and cried out and He came through in flat out phenomenon. Soon after that it happened again (serious trouble) and again He came through. And so on through my life.
I mostly lived with my mother who was an atheist through my childhood. Her heart has changed reciently. So I did not have a Christian upbringing at all. No church and all that. No, mostly all I had was anger, rebellion and trouble. But God has been faithful to prove Himself to me year after year.
No one could ever convince me that He does not exist because I have seen Him and know Him.
Let me give you one more true and recent experience from Africa. I got Malaria and had a 105-106 fever and was close to dying. Many pastors (friends) prayed for me and I did not get well. I was brought to Kampala from a place called Masaka (the epicenter of AIDS in the world) and it was a 6 hour drive. They barely got me to town in time. They helped me into my friend Osborn's home and onto a bed while they made arrangements to get me to the nurse. While I was on the bed in total misery a little orphan boy (12 yrs old) named Moses came in and saw me. He said "Oh, Uncle Mark, are you OK?" I mumbled "No". Then he left the room. All of a sudden I heard The Lord say to me "Have Moses pray for you". So I mumbled out "Moses" and he came back (he was just outside the door cleaning). I said "Will you pray for me?" (I was so sick and in so much pain and misery that I could care a less who did it, I just needed help). He said "Me, pray for you?" (You have to realize that in Ugandan culture children are like servants and they are not talked too much or considered very important) So he was a bit stunned that I would ask him. I said "Yes". He came over to me as I was laying on my back on the bed (shaking from the severe fever and feeling like a truck had run me over and I had a migraine like headache) He said to me "Mark, do you have faith?" I had been in Uganda long enough to know that they do not mess with words. They say what they mean. And their conversation pace allows long pauses to really get to the heart of your answer. I paused long and hard. The first thing I thought was "no". But then I went deeper into myself to see if there was any faith at all. I came to the point of my very, very small faith. It was this: I KNOW there is a God and that He is able to do anything he wants, but weather or not He will heal me, I don't know. So I considered it smaller than a mustard seed (a fraction of a fraction) Regardless of how small it was I decided to say yes. Then after I said "Yes", he put his hand on my forehead and began to pray the most beautiful words I have almost ever heard. Funny, because he could speak very little English. I remember thinking "I have got to get this on my cassette recorder to remember those beautiful words" then suddenly I felt something going into my head from where his hand was. This sensation captivated my attention so much that I did not know that Moses left the room quickly after praying. The feeling was awesome! and it just kept moving inside me, slowly, all the way down to my feet. When it reached my feet I opened my eyes and noticed Moses had left the room. All this took about 3-4 minutes. Then I noticed I was feeling better. I sat up, but was afraid to believe that this was a miracle because if I believed and then became sick again then I know my little faith would have been lost completely. But I slowly moved around a little and slowly realized that I was 100% well. At the very moment that I realized this, my wife comes in the door and sees me and asks me if I am ready to go to the nurse. I jumped up and said yes! (I thought "what the heck, I might as well get the shots just in case"). But all the way to the clinic as we were driving down the road I was laughing and joking and feeling better than I ever have in my life.
When I got home that evening Moses (who did not know what had happened to me) pulled me aside and told me (in somewhat broken English) that when he began praying, all of a sudden it was like he was not speaking but The Lord spoke through him, and that he felt power go through his hand. I just praised The Lord. I personally have no reason to lie. It is two in the morning and I have a wonderful wife in bed in the other room, so why would I waste my time typing for hours on end? I want you all to know the goodness of God Almighty.
 
Amazing. By the way, MarkM, when were you in Kampala? My uncle was consul-general for South Africa there a few years back.
 
wow, some of these experiences are pretty harsh......and I can see where those conclusions about the two types of believers came from.......but not everyone is the same, and I'm one of the ones who doesnt fit into either catagory!

I was raised without any religious teachings, no church, no bible stories, nothing. My brother died, there were suidcides in my family, and I was into some pretty bad stuff. All sorts of crap going on, but I didnt become a christian. At one point I ended up in the hospital and God healed me. There was no more emotional hurt from the past, not even many physical problems left. I became a christian about four months after that......because I had been healed.......because something GOOD had happened to me.

I'm sure I"m not the only one who has come to Christ because of something good either.
 
Religious experience

I would like to shift gears for a moment. I probably know I will get attacked big time for my comments, but what the heck (I am a glutton for punishment-as my African experiences have clearly shown). The God of the Bible has been totally misrepresented by people who know the Bible but don't know God at all. The Bible has been abused. It was never intended to be some legalistic code book of moralistic religiosity. From cover to cover it is a LOVE STORY. It is crazy and full of mystery. The essence of it is a crazy, passionate, love-sick God trying to get through to His creation because He just can not get over them. (To the point where He is even willing to become human and let us kill Him outright just to show us His out of control love for us) The book is a pointer (if you will) to knock us on the head and say "I'm here", "just seek me and you will find me" (And I can't wait to blow your mind!).
God is not interested in Moralistic Superiors. Jesus was clear about that by saying "NO ONE is good but God alone". God wants one thing and one thing only. To be loved. That is the bottom line of all the words. It is the theme of every page. That is why he made us in the first place. Every strand of our DNA was made be loved by God and to Love God. To hear from Him. To know Him. To love and be loved by. Not fear based, enslaving religion (Rules/Regulations/Morals/Ritual...) but RELATIONSHIP. To the fullest extent of that word. Nothing more nothing less. This is what I am interested in, not the latter. If it is about morals and rules I am doomed because I have come to the conclusion that I will never stack up. But it is about crazy GRACE and LOVE and RELATIONSHIP. That is "Good News" ("Gospel" means good or great news) He is for us not against us. This is where all the cults go wrong and legalistic churches that teach primarily condemnation. Or any legalistic forms of thinking.
Lastly, I am a Historian and I read all ancient liturature. Religious or non religious and I have seen that The Bible stands absolutely alone in content. There is no story like it. All the other ancient religions are based in fear and appeasing God (or the Gods). None are like The God of Jesus, full of grace, where He is madly seeking us.
 
Unfortunately I cannot explain my reasoning or what i believe, have researched until my book is complete. It puts me in an awkward situation here but i do enjoy reading all your comments- the only way to ever get something right is to see it from all sides, and that's exactly what im doing.

Mark: This God who wants love.... well, that's all nice and wonderful. It's nice to know he's in everyone and cares for everyone and so on etc etc yada yada. Of course personally I feel sorry for the people he drowned, the cities he burned, and Lots wife. That wasn't good news for them now was it? Before you all start quoting scripture and telling me its because of this, that and the other I might aswell point out that's not going to help. I just felt like pointing out God's wrath. Im sure those people suffered in death so do they get eternal life too? As Jenyar so poetically put it.

If you're son was just a pile of skin and bones to begin with, you might not have found him so hard to part with. Why does he have to be that now?

Why does he have to be anything other than that? Because a book says so? It's impossible for me to explain what i mean until my book is done- I doubt you'll like it when it is done anyway but i like to keep its idea quiet. However this causes me great problems here.

However I will state my belief in god as being a bunch of little green men flying throughout the cosmos. They created life here and for a time got involved with it but have since moved on to better things.

This being my belief can i get eternal life too or is that reserved solely for the people that believe in your God? If i can't would that include muslims, hindis, jews, latter day saints, jews for jesus, scientologists and so on and so forth? If that's the case what makes your god right? If its because of the bible please be aware the bible was written mainly by Sumerians who believed in mortal gods. The God that has been adapted from that is far from its original concept. Is there something other than that to decide to gets eternal life and who doesnt?

If we can all get eternal life no matter what we believe then who cares if i dont believe anything or believe Santa Claus is God? Why would you need to bother preaching to anyone if we're all gonna be lucky enough to go to heaven? In which case why would anyone need to go to church, pray, remain celibate, shave their heads or do any one of the millions of those things if there was no point?

If you really then felt the need to thank god and so on you can do that at home. The church is but a business designed to pray for you. Ok i understand it has social purpose but so does the pub.
 
Mark reply

Snake Lord has some really good questions. Cheap answers are bullshit. Because I respect him (or her) I will go ahead and comunicate to him one on one at this point because he said so much and I believe it was not a game but from his (or her) heart.
 
For the Christians who reply on this website: pray for MarkM and SnakeLord to obtain a dialog in search for truth.

For the others: I don't need to argue whether God is real or not, because God has acted by resurrecting Jesus from the dead, a historical fact, which can be proven in today's court of law. And the proof would be the changed lives of the disciples who abandoned Jesus when He was arrested, hid for their lives when He was tried and crucified, refused to believe the report from women that the tomb was empty, and then went to their deaths proclaiming He appeared to them in flesh and blood. Their "religious experience" is the fact and basis of Christianity.

http://www.icr.org/bible/troc.htm

http://www.christiananswers.net/easter.html

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
 
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amen!

many churches believe in having a 'personal relationship' with God. One where we can approach God at any time about anything and know that He is listening and answering every prayer. One where He is affecting our lives directly and Living in our hearts. We dont need to confess our sins to a priest, we need only to confess them to God. The is not a rule saying that you MUST go to church on sunday, but its a good idea cause its refreshing for your spirit. We know that God has our best interest in heart, and that if we follow Him, we will live better, fuller lives.

Sometimes there will be trouble, pain and problems in your life, it is caused by one of two things: evil/sin or lessons. Sometimes peoples sins cause us pain, but God uses the bad stuff to make something good happen ex: someone hurts you by calling you hateful things, God then uses that to teach you about forgivness. The other type of pain may come when God is teaching you a lesson! ex: you've lost your job, that hurts, but God may be teaching you to rely on Him more fully. All pain is temporary and will go away eventually, and ultimately, pain is used for good.
 
Originally posted by SVRP
God has acted by resurrecting Jesus from the dead, a historical fact, which can be proven in today's court of law.
http://www.icr.org/bible/troc.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/easter.html
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
All those sites state the proof as being
1) The NT
2) The change in the lives of those that 'find Jesus'

There is no reason to believe that the NT is completely true. They use the argument that the people of the time would have proven it false. This is not neccessarily correct, as they'd have to take the witnessing of the resurection on faith.

The fact that believing in Jesus changes people's lives, and is therefore proof, is simply flawed. Every single other religion changes people's lives too... that's why they join them. So either all religions are correct, or this isn't a good measure.
 
Originally posted by Persol
Sorry, didn't realize you had comments in the quoted text...

kinda like the palm trees frozen in the arctic....

Never heard of this either:)

The places mentioned in Greek...have been shown to exist to.
no it doesnt show that he existed... it shows that they were very careful about what they were writting and in being correct about it

But just like the myths listed, this doesn't mean that the writers of the Bible didn't embelish the story.

a fragment of a copy of John 18 was found in Egypt
its in the same book as the other one.......still looking....

No problem. I'm just surprised hat more theists wouldn't bring this evidence up to support the Bible.

ok, sorry it took so long but I finally found some references for you!

check out:

www.conventkeepers.co.uk for archaeological digs done by Ron Wyatt (you can find info on noah's ark, sodom & gommorah, Mr. Sinai, the Red Sea crossing, and the ark of the convenant on it) but I still havent relocated the one on John 18 as yet....

btw, many theists dont KNOW about this evidence, so they wouldnt be able to bring it up. I think as a whole, christians should be doing more research.....especially before debating!
 
However I will state my belief in god as being a bunch of little green men flying throughout the cosmos. They created life here and for a time got involved with it but have since moved on to better things.
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I have also read the 12th planet and found it quite interesting. Really trippy to say the least. But I don't think it is the be all and end all of the questions to God.
I am about to read Stairway to heaven.


This being my belief can i get eternal life too or is that reserved solely for the people that believe in your God? If i can't would that include muslims, hindis, jews, latter day saints, jews for jesus, scientologists and so on and so forth? If that's the case what makes your god right? If its because of the bible please be aware the bible was written mainly by Sumerians who believed in mortal gods. The God that has been adapted from that is far from its original concept. Is there something other than that to decide to gets eternal life and who doesnt?
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Judgement: This would be up to God.....not anyone here.
I think I am understanding that since Sumer is the oldest site found and that all language can be traced back to there ( the authorities believe) you believe this is where the God of the Bible comes from? What happens when they find something older? Or something with a different story or proof that it didn't . Since I believe ( and this is the key statement here) in the Bible and that Christ was the Messiah I believe what I am coming to understand in my study of the scriptures is the Truth. Your viewpoints about where the Bible came from are yours. ( again key statement here ) However you cannot expect people to believe in the God of your understanding anymore than they can expect you to believe in theirs.


If we can all get eternal life no matter what we believe then who cares if i dont believe anything or believe Santa Claus is God?
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I wouldn't give my life for Santa......lol
But I would die for the messiah.

Why would you need to bother preaching to anyone if we're all gonna be lucky enough to go to heaven?
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Again you are basing this argument off your belief................


In which case why would anyone need to go to church, pray, remain celibate, shave their heads or do any one of the millions of those things if there was no point?
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I don't go to religious institutions and really fail to see what you are making a point at here. But if people want to show devotion to God by remaining celibate or shaving there heads or going to church that is there choice.......I prefer prayer and meditation myself and only go to the old churches when no one is there.


If you really then felt the need to thank god and so on you can do that at home.
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Who says? I can pray anytime I want to and so can anyone else.......just because they do it in church shouldn't offend you.........unless of course they handcuffed you to the pew and made you listen to them or forced you to pray at gunpoint.


The church is but a business designed to pray for you. Ok i understand it has social purpose but so does the pub.
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The church is mans design.......but I also don't subscribe to the theory of lumping all churches together as money grubbing institutions only interested in the almighty dollar.

:cool:
 
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I have also read the 12th planet and found it quite interesting. Really trippy to say the least. But I don't think it is the be all and end all of the questions to God.
I am about to read Stairway to heaven.

The twelfth planet is but a small part of a larger whole. I used to be just like you... when i read the bible it was really trippy to say the least, but i really don't think it's the be all and end all of the questions to god. It's so important we all remember we have nothing but belief. We put our 'faith' into that belief but none of us have the right to claim we are unquestionably correct. It is the blatant self righteous behaviour of religious people that angers anti-religious people. It is the narrow mindedness religious people show and accuse others of that same thing. Religious people then resort to preaching scripture that is so open to interpretation but still fail to ever answer a question. The excuses of 'god will be the one judging in the end, not me' are commonplace and only ever show more of that narrow mindedness and self righteousness i speak of.

Now.. according to anceint Sumerian texts there were the 12 planets of the sun. One of these planets is missing now. My theory is that the missing planet exploded just over 2000 years ago. (Before you complain planets dont explode, they implode kindly read up on EPH). A spaceship left that planet and crash landed on earth. It was a woman traveller who gave birth to a son. The kings found this woman and boy by following a bright star in the sky, which was the exploding planet. The kid could do miracles, or what seemed like miracles to us. He could heal people, walk on water and many other wondrous things. He sacrificed himself for us- that much is true. He needed to. Let's say he had the secret to life after death, extreme longevity or many other things man would kill to find out. He got crucified. His friends around him caught his blood in the holy grail- The blood is of extreme significance- alien dna. With that man could live forever, or a very long time at least. He ressurected and left the planet. Mankind has, since that time, searched endlessly for the holy grail.

That is the short story of my belief. I am convinced these very same aliens had created us a long time before, had given us intelligence but had realised the mistake that was. This is symbolised by the apple in the garden of eden. Now perhaps you can see that interpretation means everything. We can assume the bible to mean and say anything we want it to. We do not know exactly what was being said- we just assume we do. My belief is to some rather extravagant and yet i have searched the evidence have studied the plausability. The difference between my belief and yours is It is good enough for me i dont need to force it upon others as you do. If you were so sure of your belief why would you need to convince others to believe the same? I guess the more that believe the same the more credible it becomes? The only retort to these questions i ever seem to get is 'pray for him'. That arrogant self righteousness makes these people frauds. I am so so happy believing what i do and will explain it to anyone who enquires. I will not however force it upon someone else. I will not hide behind vague words written thousands of years ago assuming i am mighty enough to understand it the way it was written.

When i was at school my teacher asked us to read a poem and explain what it meant/was about. I handed in a blank piece of paper. The teacher asked me why it was blank.. The answer was quite simple. Nobody can tell what that man felt and meant when he wrote that poem, probably not even he could. The poem had been written back in the 1960's. Now you're telling me you can accurately summise what exactly someone you have no idea about meant when he wrote something thousands of years ago? What makes it that much harder is simply the fact the bible is so full of holes. Many religious people say not to take some parts of the bible seriously, (the parts religious folk cannot explain), so what makes you think you have it right? We are at the very basics of human understanding- there's so many many things we haven't even scratched the surface of but you have it all worked out perfectly already?

The belief is fine, as i said, we all have our own beliefs. I am as happy with mine as you are with yours so why feel it so important to force yours upon me? This isn't a competition. I have asked a mountain of questions in order to see how you have come to conclusions. I don't care for your god anymore than you care for mine but am i interested in the interpretations people come up with for their beliefs.

I wouldn't give my life for Santa......lol
But I would die for the messiah.

I would give my life for my daughter and that's it. I'm thankful to the creator/s but the only one worth dying for is my girl. You would die for a guy who may not even be there then be my guest, i however cannot. I heard about these people who believed so much in their god they died for him- they flew a plane into a big building, killing many many people. That is as far as dying for belief can ever get you. Were they wrong for what they did? What about mass murderers who say they are working to gods instructions? God himself said 'thou shalt not kill' then did exactly that. People are made in the image of god, and as such we too are blatant hypocrites. It wouldn't surprise me therefore if god told people to kill for him, so then how can we condemn such violent action? Sitting in a church singing hymns seems all so wonderful and peaceful but belief has its nasty side. If they are all acting in the best interests of god, the messiah and anyone else holy i'd rather not have any part in it.

Again you are basing this argument off your belief................

Ummm no. Did you even read my post? :D I was trying to find out the requirements to gain access to heaven. I said if anyone can goto heaven why would you need to preach a belief to anyone? We would all be equal, knowing no matter what we believed we'd all be saved in the end.

I don't go to religious institutions and really fail to see what you are making a point at here. But if people want to show devotion to God by remaining celibate or shaving there heads or going to church that is there choice.......I prefer prayer and meditation myself and only go to the old churches when no one is there.

Of course its their choice that wasn't what i was talking about. Forget that part, dont wanna cause too much stress :D

Anyway, this is far too long a post as it is. You now know my beliefs and i leave them to your dissection. Unlike you guys however i wont sit here and say: "You're wrong, im right, you'll all be judged in the end by alien beings and sent to the fiery pits of hell. Repent now or be doomed." I'm not that self righteous.
 
Non Exaggerated, Non Delusional, True Religious Experience Story 2

When I was in Kampala Uganda in August of 1997, I got Malaria and had a 105-106 fever and was close to dying. Many pastors (friends) prayed for me and I did not get well. I was brought to Kampala from a place called Masaka (the epicenter of AIDS in the world) and it was a 6 hour drive. They barely got me to town in time. They helped me into my friend Osborn's home and onto a bed while they made arrangements to get me to the nurse. While I was on the bed in total misery a little orphan boy (11-12 yrs old) named Moses came in and saw me. He said "Oh, Uncle Mark, are you OK?" I mumbled "No". Then he left the room. All of a sudden I heard The Lord say to me "Have Moses pray for you". So I mumbled out "Moses" and he came back (he was just outside the door). I said "Will you pray for me?" (I was so sick and in so much pain and misery that I could care a less who did it, I just needed help). He said "Me, pray for you?" (You have to realize that in Ugandan culture children are like servants and they are not talked to much or considered very important) So he was a bit stunned. I said "Yes". He came over to me as I was laying on my back on the bed (shaking from the fever and feeling like a truck had run me over with body aches, and had a migraine like headache-not to mention vomiting so hard I tore stomach muscles and popped blood vessels under my eyes, and diarrhea) He said to me "Mark, do you have faith?" I had been in Uganda long enough to know that they do not mess with words. They say what they mean very carefully. And their conversation pace is slow and allows long pauses to really get to the heart of your answer. I paused long and hard. The first thing I thought was "no". But then I went deeper into myself to see if there was any faith at all. I came to the point of my very, very small faith. It was this: I KNOW there is a God and that He is able to do anything he wants, but weather or not He will heal me, I don't know. So I considered my faith smaller than a mustard seed (a fraction of a fraction of one). Regardless of how small it was I decided to say "yes." Then after saying "yes", Moses put his hand on my forehead and began to pray the most beautiful words I have almost ever heard. Funny, because he could speak very little English. I remember thinking "I have got to get these beautiful words on my cassette recorder to remember them. Then, suddenly, I felt something going into my head from where his hand was. This sensation captivated my attention so much that I did not know that Moses left the room quickly after praying. The feeling captivated me and just kept moving inside me, slowly, all the way down to my feet. When it reached my feet I opened my eyes and noticed Moses had left the room. All this took about 3-4 minutes. Then I immediately noticed I was feeling better. I sat up, but was afraid to believe that this was a miracle because if I believed and then became sick again then I know my little faith would have been lost / crushed. But I slowly moved around a little and realized that I was 100% well. At the very moment that I realized this, my wife comes in the door and sees me and asks me if I am ready to go to the nurse. I jumped up and said yes! (I thought "what the heck, I might as well get the shots just in case"). But all the way to the clinic, down the road, I was laughing and feeling better than I ever have in my life.
When I got home that evening Moses (who did not know what had happened to me) pulled me aside and told me (in somewhat broken English) that when he began praying, all of a sudden it was like he was not speaking but The Lord Jesus spoke through him, and that he felt power go through his hand. I just praised The Lord.
 
I will not attempt to undermine the miracle of that moment. For you it was perhaps a rebirth into a new life, or at the very least a life saving moment for which there seems to be little explanation other than something mystical and divine.

Every day i witness miracles and pure beauty the mind never takes the time to appreciate.

There are two specific scenarios that spring to mind.

The first, and the evil of the two is watching tragedy such as the sept 11 terrorist attack. Wars in countries such as kosovo. Death, destruction and all that is bad and evil in this world.

The second is of harmony and beauty. True miracles in life such as the breaking of day, flowers in a spring meadow- watching birds fly above the fields with songs in their hearts. Water rushing from a mountain stream, the air fresh with smells of summer.


One of the above two is caused by the belief in religion and the belief in god. The other requires no belief whatsoever. One is a miracle, one is a disaster. Can you guess which is which?

There may be personal miracles with no apparent answer but if you look beyond the self, beyond your own personal experiences god is but a route to hatred, violence and death. The religion is irrelevant. From David Koresh to the Pope all that is caused by such belief is blatant misery. That is what, throughout my posts, i have meant by self righteous attitude. You are right, everyone else is wrong. Someone ends up dead because of it and none of you are closer to a truth, none of you are closer to the love and peace Jesus apparently died for. You fight and kill in the name of god yet do exactly the opposite of his wishes. You call yourself religious, god loving people yet you betray him every single day of your lives. Even petty things such as debates like this. You don't need to argue over what or who god is. You claim to know yet have to try so hard forcing that upon others. Why bother? You know we'll all be judged in the end right? So why cause such anger, hatred, and violence in the world pretending to be a lover of god?

San Dolphin said he/she would die for the messiah. It is exactly that attitude that corrupts the whole belief in god. Many people have died for their belief and many more will. All it has ever caused is destruction and misery.
 
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The twelfth planet is but a small part of a larger whole. I used to be just like you... when i read the bible it was really trippy to say the least, but i really don't think it's the be all and end all of the questions to god.
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You don't know me well enough to make that statement and really seems to me a put down because I read and study scripture.

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It's so important we all remember we have nothing but belief. We put our 'faith' into that belief but none of us have the right to claim we are unquestionably correct.
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Yes my belief is based off my experience...........
Who is we?? I was talking about my faith and I dont think I claimed my way was the way or you were going to go to Hell...........

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It is the blatant self righteous behaviour of religious people that angers anti-religious people. It is the narrow mindedness religious people show and accuse others of that same thing.
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I have seen the same thing from some individuals that are anti-religious however I would never make the assumption that they all should be lumped in to one group. People are individuals. They express their belief of things from their own life experience and or their own study.

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Religious people then resort to preaching scripture that is so open to interpretation but still fail to ever answer a question.
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Since you are vague here I will make an assumption...........this is a forum on Religion, so people will be discussing or cussing or preaching or interpreting scripture. I beg to differ that scripture is wide open for any kind of interpretation. Notice I said "I" not we.

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The excuses of 'god will be the one judging in the end, not me' are commonplace and only ever show more of that narrow mindedness and self righteousness i speak of.
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No...........The Judgement is God's if you are talking to a Christian ( and I am one) and it states it very clearly in the Bible. This is one of those things thats not open to interpretation.

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Now.. according to anceint Sumerian texts there were the 12 planets of the sun. One of these planets is missing now. My theory is that the missing planet exploded just over 2000 years ago. (Before you complain planets dont explode, they implode kindly read up on EPH).
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Why would it have to be missing? Why could it not have an orbital path that goes across the planets and takes 1000's of years to complete its cycle? This is "your" theory. I wouldn't debate this with you since Planetary systems is not my area of expertise or study. But it is "Your Theory". Key word here being "Theory"

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A spaceship left that planet and crash landed on earth. It was a woman traveller who gave birth to a son. The kings found this woman and boy by following a bright star in the sky, which was the exploding planet.
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While I believe there is life on other planets, planetary systems I don't believe your rendition of this story.

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The kid could do miracles, or what seemed like miracles to us. He could heal people, walk on water and many other wondrous things. He sacrificed himself for us- that much is true. He needed to.
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Since I am a Christian I have certain beliefs about why Christ lived and gave up his life.........

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Let's say he had the secret to life after death, extreme longevity or many other things man would kill to find out. He got crucified. His friends around him caught his blood in the holy grail- The blood is of extreme significance- alien dna. With that man could live forever, or a very long time at least. He ressurected and left the planet. Mankind has, since that time, searched endlessly for the holy grail.
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I personally do not believe this at all.
It states very clearly why he gave up his life in the Bible and why he was hated.
Yeahhhh..........he left the planet alright........
I believe there may be some groups or individuals who have sought for the Holy Grail, but, not "ALL of Mankind"..........

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That is the short story of my belief. I am convinced these very same aliens had created us a long time before, had given us intelligence but had realised the mistake that was. This is symbolised by the apple in the garden of eden. Now perhaps you can see that interpretation means everything.
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No.........."I" don't see this at all. However the first 10 books are considered pseudopigraphaphic texts. This being the case "I" can draw my own assumption about there validity or non validity through my "own study".

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We can assume the bible to mean and say anything we want it to. We do not know exactly what was being said- we just assume we do.
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The scripture is pretty clear to me about what it is saying and at this point I wander if you have even bothered to read past Genesis.
Who is "WE" are you speaking for everyone or what?

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My belief is to some rather extravagant and yet i have searched the evidence have studied the plausability. The difference between my belief and yours is It is good enough for me i dont need to force it upon others as you do.
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Based off all the things that you have stated I can come to some pretty clear conclusions that you haven't really studied the scripture.


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If you were so sure of your belief why would you need to convince others to believe the same? I guess the more that believe the same the more credible it becomes? The only retort to these questions i ever seem to get is 'pray for him'. That arrogant self righteousness makes these people frauds. I am so so happy believing what i do and will explain it to anyone who enquires. I will not however force it upon someone else. I will not hide behind vague words written thousands of years ago assuming i am mighty enough to understand it the way it was written.
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I don't believe I have tried to convince anyone to be a Christian. "I" have merely stated "I" am a Christian. However "I" have spoken up about Scripture being misquoted. When someone takes a single sentence out of a Chapter with 40 verses to try to prove a point that has nothing to do with the verse or flat out lies about scripture you can bet "I" will say something. "I" have never said "I" would pray for you or told anyone to pray for you. As to your last sentence in order to understand something you have to at least read it and study it and "I" personally feel you haven't done either.


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Now you're telling me you can accurately summise what exactly someone you have no idea about meant when he wrote something thousands of years ago?
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The Bible is pretty clear "to me" about what it is saying..........

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What makes it that much harder is simply the fact the bible is so full of holes.
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and your an authority on Biblical research?
I don't see all the holes you are talking about........is this another sweeping generalization

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Many religious people say not to take some parts of the bible seriously, (the parts religious folk cannot explain), so what makes you think you have it right?
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and where in my post did I say all people had to believe I was right? Or is this another generalized statement about Christians of which you have made many.


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We are at the very basics of human understanding- there's so many many things we haven't even scratched the surface of but you have it all worked out perfectly already?
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I don't believe that I stated I have it all worked out perfectly and do you really believe that because I am a Christian I don't know that we haven't scratched the surface of human understanding? Oh I forgot you are lumping every Christian or religious person into a single category.


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The belief is fine, as i said, we all have our own beliefs. I am as happy with mine as you are with yours so why feel it so important to force yours upon me?
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I merely tried to answer your questions from "MY" perspective and I don't remember ever forcing anything on you. But since you keep saying this over and over I have to assume that you don't think I am allowed to have an opinion.

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This isn't a competition. I have asked a mountain of questions in order to see how you have come to conclusions. I don't care for your god anymore than you care for mine but am i interested in the interpretations people come up with for their beliefs.
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I only answered your one post and have not read the others, but, I fail to see where me giving my opinion is a competition. If you don't want opinions don't ask the questions.

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I would give my life for my daughter and that's it. I'm thankful to the creator/s but the only one worth dying for is my girl.
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All life is precious to me

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You would die for a guy who may not even be there then be my guest, i however cannot.
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I would...........

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I heard about these people who believed so much in their god they died for him- they flew a plane into a big building, killing many many people. That is as far as dying for belief can ever get you. Were they wrong for what they did? What about mass murderers who say they are working to gods instructions? God himself said 'thou shalt not kill' then did exactly that.
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This is murder they believed in Bin Laden and his rhetoric of hate. They murdered for the belief in there God (aka Bin Laden) ........I said I would give my life for the Messiah......in other words if am told to denounce the Christ or lose my life. I will choose death. I will not denounce Christ. No matter what circumstance you can come up with I will not denounce Christ.

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People are made in the image of god, and as such we too are blatant hypocrites.
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Well I am glad your here to speak for all the people...........

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Ummm no. Did you even read my post? :D I was trying to find out the requirements to gain access to heaven. I said if anyone can go to heaven why would you need to preach a belief to anyone? We would all be equal, knowing no matter what we believed we'd all be saved in the end.
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Yes I did read that and I believe I said that God is the one who will judge.

:bugeye:
 
Non Exaggerated, Non Delusional, True Religious Experience Story 2

When I was in Kampala Uganda in August of 1997, I got Malaria and had a 105-106 fever and was close to dying. Many pastors (friends) prayed for me and I did not get well. I was brought to Kampala from a place called Masaka (the epicenter of AIDS in the world) and it was a 6 hour drive. They barely got me to town in time. They helped me into my friend Osborn's home and onto a bed while they made arrangements to get me to the nurse. While I was on the bed in total misery a little orphan boy (11-12 yrs old) named Moses came in and saw me. He said "Oh, Uncle Mark, are you OK?" I mumbled "No". Then he left the room. All of a sudden I heard The Lord say to me "Have Moses pray for you". So I mumbled out "Moses" and he came back (he was just outside the door). I said "Will you pray for me?" (I was so sick and in so much pain and misery that I could care a less who did it, I just needed help). He said "Me, pray for you?" (You have to realize that in Ugandan culture children are like servants and they are not talked to much or considered very important) So he was a bit stunned. I said "Yes". He came over to me as I was laying on my back on the bed (shaking from the fever and feeling like a truck had run me over with body aches, and had a migraine like headache-not to mention vomiting so hard I tore stomach muscles and popped blood vessels under my eyes, and diarrhea) He said to me "Mark, do you have faith?" I had been in Uganda long enough to know that they do not mess with words. They say what they mean very carefully. And their conversation pace is slow and allows long pauses to really get to the heart of your answer. I paused long and hard. The first thing I thought was "no". But then I went deeper into myself to see if there was any faith at all. I came to the point of my very, very small faith. It was this: I KNOW there is a God and that He is able to do anything he wants, but weather or not He will heal me, I don't know. So I considered my faith smaller than a mustard seed (a fraction of a fraction of one). Regardless of how small it was I decided to say "yes." Then after saying "yes", Moses put his hand on my forehead and began to pray the most beautiful words I have almost ever heard. Funny, because he could speak very little English. I remember thinking "I have got to get these beautiful words on my cassette recorder to remember them. Then, suddenly, I felt something going into my head from where his hand was. This sensation captivated my attention so much that I did not know that Moses left the room quickly after praying. The feeling captivated me and just kept moving inside me, slowly, all the way down to my feet. When it reached my feet I opened my eyes and noticed Moses had left the room. All this took about 3-4 minutes. Then I immediately noticed I was feeling better. I sat up, but was afraid to believe that this was a miracle because if I believed and then became sick again then I know my little faith would have been lost / crushed. But I slowly moved around a little and realized that I was 100% well. At the very moment that I realized this, my wife comes in the door and sees me and asks me if I am ready to go to the nurse. I jumped up and said yes! (I thought "what the heck, I might as well get the shots just in case"). But all the way to the clinic, down the road, I was laughing and feeling better than I ever have in my life.
When I got home that evening Moses (who did not know what had happened to me) pulled me aside and told me (in somewhat broken English) that when he began praying, all of a sudden it was like he was not speaking but The Lord Jesus spoke through him, and that he felt power go through his hand. I just praised The Lord.
 
I do not believe in any god nor do I subscribe to any religious beliefs. I do think however that to label religion as "idiotic" and to call religious people "ignorant" is to miss the point.

Religion seems to be pretty universally born out of a need to answer the (seemingly!?) unanswerable questions. e.g. What is the sun? Why did the crops fail. Why are we here? Asking these questions is surely far from ignorant.

The development of organised religions from abstract notions of god and the 'requirement' to subscribe to belief in certain myth and miracle necessarily raise questions about who is right (everyone? no one?)

I think religion provides people with a sense of purpose and has played a pivotal part in the development of man into the civilised (!!!) mammal that it is.
 
I do not believe in any god nor do I subscribe to any religious beliefs. I do think however that to label religion as "idiotic" and to call religious people "ignorant" is to miss the point.

Religion seems to be pretty universally born out of a need to answer the (seemingly!?) unanswerable questions. e.g. What is the sun? Why did the crops fail. Why are we here? Asking these questions is surely far from ignorant.

The development of organised religions from abstract notions of god and the 'requirement' to subscribe to belief in certain myth and miracle necessarily raise questions about who is right (everyone? no one?)

I think religion provides people with a sense of purpose and has played a pivotal part in the development of man into the civilised (!!!) mammal that it is.
 
Turismo,

Welcome to sciforums.

Religion seems to be pretty universally born out of a need to answer the (seemingly!?) unanswerable questions. e.g. What is the sun? Why did the crops fail. Why are we here? Asking these questions is surely far from ignorant.
No that is quite wrong. The questions can be asked by anyone. It is not the questions that are the problem. The issue concerns the answers. Theists assert only one answer, a god did it. That is idiotic since there is nothing to support that conclusion. And it is ignorant for ignoring all the alternative and more credible possibilities and evidence that contradict the theistic assertions.

The development of organised religions from abstract notions of god and the 'requirement' to subscribe to belief in certain myth and miracle necessarily raise questions about who is right (everyone? no one?)
Or we could simply be disciplined and mature and accept that we do not yet have all the answers. My primary objection to religionists is that they claim they know when it is clear they cannot possibly know.

I think religion provides people with a sense of purpose and has played a pivotal part in the development of man into the civilised (!!!) mammal that it is.
Yes I agree, but you imply that this level of civilization is a good thing. Look at the alternative; a world that was not dominated by superstitions and irrational thinking, a world where science was not repressed and discouraged, a world that would probably be far more advanced in terms of medical care and cures for diseases like cancer, and where wars would simply not occur.
 
The Ragamuffin Gospel

I am not a muscular Christian who has made John Wayne and not Jesus my hero.
I am not an academician who would imprison Jesus in the ivory tower of exegesis.
I am not a noisy feel good fellow who would manipulate Christianity into a naked appeal to emotion.
I am not an Alleluia Christian who lives only on the mountaintop and never visits the valley of desolation.
I am not fearless or tearless.
I am not a red-hot zealot who boasts with the rich young ruler of the Gospels: “All these commandments I have kept from my youth.”
I am not complacent and hoisting over my shoulder a tote-bag of honors, diplomas, and good works, and so, actually believing I have made it.
I am not a legalist who would rather surrender control of my soul to rules than run the risk of living in union with Jesus.
If anyone is still reading along,

I am the bedraggled, beat-up, and burnt-out.
I am the sorely burdened, shifting the heavy suitcase from one hand to the other.
I am the wobbly and weak-kneed, knowing I don’t have it all together and am not too proud to accept the hand-out of amazing grace.
I am the inconsistent, unsteady disciple whose cheese is falling off his cracker.
I am a poor, weak, sinful man with hereditary faults and limited talents.
I am an earthen vessel who shuffles along on feet of clay.
I am bent and bruised and have felt my life to be a grave disappoint to God.
I am a smart person who knows I am stupid and an honest disciple who admits I am a scalawag.
I am a man who has grown weary and discouraged along the way.
I am a Ragamuffin.
And I am a sinner, saved by grace.
 
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