what is religious experience?

Actually there is enough evidence to prove in today's court of law that Jesus rose from the dead.
(By the way, in the same program Mr. Jennings was amazed to find out that seventy percent of today's medical doctors believed that Jesus healed the sick.)

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
 
Religious experience reply...

A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument only.
Even if the argument is cynical.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Jenyar
You will soon enough find out that Santa Claus doesn't exist from the lack of conviction of his followers (parents), the lack of historical information (whether it claims to be evidence or not), and above all, the glaring the lack of presents at your bedside.
Click to expand...
Whoa, whoa, whoa! There have been many books written about Santa Claus as well as video documentation. That means Santa Claus is more documented from more different nationalities and cultures than Jesus Christ was. Santa Claus must be TRUE. He is the god of gift giving and we must follow the Clausian Scriptures precisely to get what we want.
 
reply...

Because of your cynicism. I does not seem you are willing to talk without it. Or another way to put it - it is the spirit of your words. They are sarcastic and seem to have a demeaning tone to them. I am interested in reasoning professionally, not the latter. Maybe I am on the wrong web-sight.
 
I think when religious people fail to see the humour of their own beliefs, and how they swiftly dismiss anyone elses they will then realise why other people show cynisism and sarcasm.

Once while walking down the street i was approached by a couple of men who started to preach the bible and God. I told them instantly I didn't believe such fairy tale gossip and was a follower of Santa Claus, (just like the person on the post above).

one of the men scoffed. "How old are you?"

At that time I was 21 years old. Upon telling the man he leaned up close to me and said:

"Surely you're old enough to know Santa Claus is not real?"

I said: "Surely you're old enough to know God isn't real?"

The man recoiled. "I'm sorry" he said, "I shouldn't have treated your belief in such manner."

We can all be 'demeaning' and fail to understand things from other peoples perspectives. For instance look how quickly Jenyar was to dismiss any plausability in the existence of Santa Claus and yet I don't see you accusing that person of the same.

It's always the case of 'you are right, everyone else is wrong'. You then try to accuse them of such things because you cannot answer them - because you are so stuck in your own belief you can't see further than your own nose.

Just as you are all so eager to dismiss things without thought or research surely everyone can do the same?
 
Religious experience reply

The point in my first story (the old lady that I know) is that people play many games with God (and each other of course). We believe what we WANT to believe for the most part. Usually people get angry at how Christians behave and then dismiss the whole thing (throw the baby out with the bathwater). The bottom line on the issue is IF God is God, then God is big enough to speak for Himself. So if we REALLY want to know the truth about the issue we must ask the potential SOURCE not each other. And IF we are honest in asking, and IF there really is a "SOURCE", then it is quite possible we may get an answer. That is scary. We may have to change! All games would have to end. The problem is that it requires humility and a willingness to lay down our opinions to get a potential answer. An extremely rare quality among humans for sure. Many people just dismiss God (holding on to their opinions fiercely) rather than mustering up the courage to go to the source in humility. It is not about being wrong or right (although many people misrepresent God severely by being totally arrogant) it is about the question "What is the truth?" Maybe a person doing what I have suggested here would get no answer? So be it. But maybe they would? The only way to find out for sure is to let "the rubber meet the road".
 
I once knew a man who spoke to a tree. The tree spoke back to the man, informing him of life, what it meant and answering the mans questions.

Now we must decide what exactly that tree was.

Was it God talking to the man through a tree?
Was it nothing more than a talking tree?
Was the man clinically insane?

If you do as you say which is to directly ask the source whats to say the answer you get wont just be that which you already believe? What i mean by that is your own mind can create a truth for you based on what you believe, and make your own beliefs seem more substantial.

If i was to stumble upon a tree that talked it would in my mind be nothing more than a talking tree. I fail to see why it has to be anything more glorious than that. If it is God speaking to you through a tree what makes you know it is in fact God? Because he says so? Maybe trees like lying? The point is you dont know, you cant know. What gets to people is in fact the arrogance and ignorance that religious people show- thinking they know the absolute facts of the matter when, quite simply put, they do not.

It could have been a talking tree, it could have been a form of God or the man could be a bit mental. Everyone will find and justify their own beliefs but they are nothing more than beliefs. As such I think it's very ignorant to instantly dismiss anyone elses belief off hand whether they believe in God, talking trees, Santa Claus or The Smurfs. Nobody has a position to claim absolute knowledge, nobody holds the position of being correct. Once the majority of religious people i've spoken to understand that, things would start moving forward for a change.

Your opinions are as sound as anyone elses MarkM but do not think for one second your hold any more validity than the next mans. To you there is God, to someone else there isn't. Neither of you are wrong, but neither of you are ultimately right either.
 
You know Snakelord,

it makes me wonder if Joseph Smith was probably talking to a tree. Sounds plausible, doesn't it?
 
But of course for believers the train must exist since that is their only hope of escaping the reality that they cannot and do not want to face. When presented with the ugly inevitable realization that at some time in their not too distant future they will cease to exist then any hope no matter how tenuous will be more acceptable than having to find the courage to face death.

But mental institutions are filled with people who see imaginary trains, an example of people who also cannot comprehend reality. But for believers the imaginary train is just their elaborate excuse to justify their cowardice.

This is reality, deal with it. There is no next stop, you have arrived and you will die, there is no escape no matter how powerful your imagination and your fantasies.
Click to expand...
If there is a next life tho, and i do meet up with you there... Then I get to say "Itold a so":D
 
number 1 doesnt make sense to me.......if he's the saviour why are the miracles just thrown in?
Sorry if I wasn't clear. That option meant that Jesus existed, but was just a normal human. The miracles were later added to the story to make it 'epic'.

~ah, I see what you mean now


also, in responce to your other post, how do you know that God doesnt affect our world?
The lack of evidence. Other theists have on many ocassions resorted to 'gving up' and saying that evidence will never be found because He is 'super-natural'. If God does affect our world evidence would be found.
[b/]

~ i dont believe that lack of evidence proves something.....also, maybe you're not open to the evidence, maybe you (not you personally, just people in general) choose not to look


it has been my experience (i think this is what was originally asked about) that God DOES affect our world, and does so quite often
I'd say that religion convinces people to affect our world. How do you think God affects our world?
EDIT: Lol... never mind... you answered it:)

I've seen and experienced many healings that by all logic really shouldnt have happened
From studies that have been done 'healers' only 'cure' terminal illness (for good) the same percentage of time that happens in a control group. Healers do however have a great placebo affect, that it slightly stronger then an pill placebo. I would guess this is just because the belief is stronger in religion then the pill.
[/b]

~ my personal healing experience came before I was a christian, before I even knew much about God.......and its not just terminal illnesses, I've seen a fair bit of serious illness (but not terminal) and mental illness cured as well

there are far too many things that happen "coincidentally" to just be coincidence
I've noticed that too... but I don't see this as proof of God. It may just be my mind looking for patterns where there are none.


~ I wouldnt take them as the sole evidence for God, but it is something to consider

sometimes i've prayed about/for something and its happened even as I was praying for it........things like that......
I think this falls into the coincidence thing, but there is no way of knowing. I wouldn't call the 'possible coincidence' evidence of a God, because it happens to me and I don't worship the God. If the 'coincidences' in my life actually are the work of a supreme being, he evidently doesn't mind me questioning his existance:)
[b/]

~ no, God does not mind our asking questions, what He really want is for us to turn to Him, and repent our sins

I think it would be a safer assumption to assume God DOES watch us and to act accordingly.
My theory is that I am a good person (by most standards:) ). If I knew that God existed and was watching I wouldn't act any different. I do not believe that a God worth worshipping would punish good people for questioning his existance.

~ and I dont believe that there is any such thing as a truly 'good' person, I believe that we are all sinful (or bad) and that we all deserve the punishments of hell, it is only through God's grace that we can become righteous in His eyes (forgiven)
 
religious experience to snakelord and darwin disciple

In Africa 3 years ago my wife and I and some African friends prayed for a dead man (AIDS) and he completely revived. Then we shared the message of Christ with him and his family and half of them (including the man) gave their lives to Him. Before we left the region we dropped by one last time to say good buy, to give aninvitation into God's kingdom to the people who did not want to, and to pray for the guy who came back from death (Charles). As we prayed with Charles with our eyes shut I could hear the unbelieving portion of his family snickering and laughing at us. I opened one eye slightly and saw them making fun of us. At that exact moment I asked God "Please come in power so that all here will know you are God Almighty" "Please come like you did in the book of Acts (4:31) where" "the whole place was shaken." As I was finishing the last word of that statement in prayer the whole place shook in an earthquake. It horrified the unbelievers and struck us (who believe) with profound sense AWE! Even a little fear. I thought the house might cave in, but we kept praying as the whole house was shaking and as we finished the prayer everything stopped still. We got up and left; and did not say anything to anyone at that house. They experienced it, and they knew. They needed no words. I enquired around the immediate, local area and no one experienced or knew anything of a quake. It only quaked beneath that little house.
Recently (as of the last 4 weeks) I have gone through some very serious tragedys. I lost a baby, my health, and my career dream, all in one month. This wiped be out and blindsided me. I have experienced some horribly dark days, but somewhere inside of me I still have faith. Why? Because of my experiences like the one I mentioned. I have had so many of these I simply cannot justify them away. Even if I wanted to. I would have to justify away a mountain of proofs I have received. Much more that thinking a tree is talking to me.
 
My son died 4 years ago. I was an angry man for a couple of years, not at anything almighty but more at society for it's lack of understanding. I wont get into my exact meaning for that, it's a long story I have no need to dwell over. I will however mention that I felt no need to pass his death onto something nobody can see. God is like the ultimate scapegoat or fall-guy. We have tragedy and it's all washed away by knowing God had his reasons for doing it. To me that is a cop-out. I understand the grief as much as anyone else, and more than some, but can accept things the way they are without needing to point the finger at a big invisible being.. That's not to say laying blame even but finding the only way to gain comfort from loss is to have an 'imaginary friend'.

I have worked for the past 8 years on strange, unexplained phenomena.... All fields- ufo's, bigfoot, you name it. I would agree with anyone 100% that strange occurences do happen. A prime example of this:

Three months ago I was sitting at this very computer playing an online game when i saw a clear figure in white walk past the computer, (reflection in the monitor). I whizzed my head round thinking it was my wife sneaking up on me- i even said "got ya!" There was nobody there... I searched the house and eventually phoned my wifes mobile. She was out shopping. It shook me up a great deal so I told her to come home quickly. That night I learnt a good friend of mine had died in a car crash. I believe she was trying to give me some kind of message perhaps. However as much as this is a strange event there is nothing to reason it to being God, or an activity of God.

A good friend of mine, and a co-worker with unusual phenomenon was in his bath relaxing. The room exploded into a shower of glass but no windows were broken. He was not hurt by this but we still have the remains he swept up. The glass objects are the size of decanter tops and the bathroom floor was literally covered with them. Ok, it is a strange event, but again I fail to see the significance between paranormal phenomenon and God.

The simple truth is we do not know. As an investigator my job is to find answers, but let me tell you i dont ever expect to find any. It is you who attributes someones lack of belief in God as anger, but perhaps you are as wrong as the next man? A book just doesn't justify absolute truth for me. I will continue to search, indeed for the rest of my life, because that's what makes me human. I will never fall into the trap of just assuming i'm 100% correct without argument. This is where we differ. Our commonalities are neither of us have the facts, you just believe you do.

As for your Africa experience..... I read about these shamans in South America who healed a man from cancer. it was filmed and certified as genuine. Those shamans believed in a completely different God to you.. Does that make their God true and your God false? Like i said, strange things do and will happen. People will accept their own answers whether there's any basis in truth to it or not. I would rather just search for that truth. I know, i know it will never arrive but I can't just hand in my gloves and accept the first thing im told.

Can i be so bold as to ask whether you're a self-found God believer or mummy-faith believer? I use the term mummy-faith to describe someone who believes something because their parents taught them to. I'm not making attempt to be personal or rude I am just curious.. (curiosity and questioning are my best attributes) :D

What makes me chuckle slightly is how easy we can differentiate between good and evil without knowing what's going on. For instance your prayer for an earthquake is a good thing, whereas a ouija board causing an earthquake is an act of satan or other evil whether it hurts anyone or not. How do you justify between the two? Again, i'm just curious.

Btw I know exactly how it is, but if you'd like to talk things over about your child i'd be more than willing to help in any way I can and offer you my ears. It's something none of us should ever have to go through and you have my most heartfelt condolences.
 
Darwin, there are quite a few books written about such experiences - but they are usually in that brightly lit part of the bookstore between different translations of the Bible and the other, more scary, religious books. I always prefer to hear them first-hand, like from MarkM here. I have my own lifestory, with much the same effect of strengthening my faith to the point where unbelief isn't an option anymore, but its less interesting to tell - at this point it only helps to strengthen the faith of people who already believe. But what I did get from my experiences is enough conviction to be able to spread the Word without having to wonder what it that I'm talking about.
 
Last edited:
Sorry if I appear to be a forum troll, i'm just interested in debate and opinions and have nothing better to do at 7:30am :)

I notice a distinct pattern arising..

1) Religious folk who were born into it. Their parents taught them everything and it instantly becomes absolute fact.

2) These people who have..... 'Experiences'. I knew a religious guy to such extent he would preach it when buying candy bars. He too had an 'experience'. He almost died. He's an African man, young, and educated who got beaten to near death one night while living in Africa. He moved to England shortly after and 'found' faith. He says if it wasn't for God he would have eventually died. I told him he will eventually die anyway but thats off topic :D

It seems to me for people to find religion they need to have seriously bad things happen to them first. I wonder why that is? Personally I see it as an attempt for comfort, and I have absolutely no objection to that. I don't like the way some feel the need to try to force that upon others but I at least understand why they believe what they do.

Like i have said several times though it's not an answer for me. I can't just bury my head into something without facts and proof. I have had my fair share of tragedy and need to find comfort- but I can't just accept anything as truth even if it does make my pain ease.
 
Yes, "God has reasons for it" is a cop-out, even from a Christian perpective. Your experience made you realize the nature of people and the lack of understanding in people. But you could only realize this after you came to understand it yourelf. What we are looking for is not a reason for suffering (which is: sin), but a way through. Once you have suffered yourself the ultimate humiliation and death, only then will you understand what Jesus went through. But you don't have to be able to explain it to accept it, or learn from it.

What I've learned is the same thing I would have learned if my son died. True, I have been spared the grief of actually having to go though it (until now, anyway) - but that's the point, isn't it? I know that someone's son died for me undeservedly, and that has made all the difference - He has given us hope. Now I know the result of sin, and I can work to lessen its influence and effect. Suffering is my strength, because it enables me to persevere, it build my character and ability to see this hope. I know His son lives, and I know your sons also live. What you have lost is priviledge, what you have gained is hope.
 
I understand what you're saying but understand this aswell:

You say:

and I know your sons also live. What you have lost is priviledge, what you have gained is hope.
Click to expand...

Actually my son's dead. He's a pile of bones buried in the ground. I'm sorry if thats sound a tad harsh but it's true. You say i've lost privelege, i say i've lost a son. You say i've gained hope, i say i've gained a lot of burial fees. Some people might wonder how i can talk of such things with such 'ease'. It's taken 4 years. I don't see why everything has to be so mystically dramatic except solely for the purpose of personal comfort. Comfort is fine as long as you understand that. Trying to preach it as total fact isn't. Maybe everyone's in heaven, maybe they aren't. (Mark Twain hopes not. He once stated billions of people all playing the harp would be a bit much) :D Maybe we'll all goto heaven, maybe we wont. Nobody actually knows right now. Once we're all dead we either find out or we dont. As per your quote, saying: "I know"... That's a lie. It's misleading and wrong. You dont know, you believe. Never forget belief isn't fact.
 
If you're son was just a pile of skin and bones to begin with, you might not have found him so hard to part with. Why does he have to be that now? I don't know much about the nature of heaven, but I do know that it was God who gave him life.

I know (just because you don't know, doesn't mean I can't know - or should I say "as certain as God lives"?) that God brought us salvation and life, that through His Son we were forgiven that which causes death, and we will share His resurrection to life if we share His suffering to death. It has been promised from the beginning, and it has happened. I'm not talking about dead stones and dust as witnessess, living people witnessed it, and it has been confirmed in many lives. You have seen plainly how we belong to death, why don't you believe we can belong to life?

God became equal with us in suffering mortality, so that His creation, who exist though Him and for Him, would not have to live without hope. His Spirit lives in those who have faith, and it is He who gives eternal life - and who has given me the conviction of what I'm telling you. Believe me, I wouldn't dare approach you with empty words - if you don't believe me it will be of no comfort, if you do, it might change what you live for. We are dead to sin, and alive in Christ. It isn't a mystical, airy-fairy comfort - it is a reality in which we live now, one that was realized in one person: Jesus.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top