what is religious experience?

[TheVisitor]

Chris

Yes, in the last days the mordern worldly church that calls itself "Christianty" shall become a form of Satanism.... The bible itself says so....
The modern organized churches have become Satan's bride.

The whole world shall be deceived except for the Bride of Christ.

Satan's Bride, this evil-spirited church, full of iniquity, will be revealed as the mustard seed that grew into a tree wherein lodged the fouls of the air. At her head will be the antichrist, the mystery of iniquity. All this is true. And if this is true, then it must also be true that the Bride Church will mature, and her ripeness shall be an identification with her Lord by means of the Word, and her Head Who will come to her is the Mystery of Godliness, Which indeed is Christ. And as the false church with all cunning and diabolical power made up of political force, physical force and demons of darkness come against this true vine, the true vine with the fullness of the Spirit and the Word will do the very acts of power that Jesus did.

For thou (Lucifer) hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Satan has the Unbeleivers, and the make-believers, in their false creeds mixing God's Word and traditions making His word of non-effect to themselves,
They are deceiving themselves in their own hearts.
How is this possible....how could so many miss it?

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird


The two vines that grew together and intertwined their branches are now to be separated. The fruits of those vines which were at such variance will be gathered into separate garners. The two spirits will go to their separate destinations. Now it is time to heed the final call that comes only to the Wheat Bride, `Come out of her My people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye (wheat) receive not her (tares) plagues (the great tribulation of the sixth seal and Matthew 24)

The two spirits would be so close in the last days it would deceive the very elected if it were posible.But it's not.

There is still a reminent of God's people today. And they can not be deceived, because they have the same weapon thats always been used to defeat Satan, The Word of God, the Word revealed .....(by the only One worthy to break the Seals placed upon It, Jesus Christ Himself).....thats been hidden since before the foundation of the earth, when Her names were written on the Lamb's book of Life. .

 

[Cris]

Ulti,

Cris,
You evaded mine too on page 11: 03-25-03 at 10:23 PM

I guess you meant this post as the one you think I evaded; it was the only one on page 11. But it was just assertions and I didn’t think it needed a response. But whatever!

Why would I have a problem denying something that I haven't had?

Sure you can say you are not aware of something you haven't had. But you cannot deny its existence because you didn't have it!

So perhaps you can check for me, as I might be wrong, but I don’t think I have denied the existence of such experiences, all I have done is questioned the cause of such experiences. If they have supernatural causes then such claims need some real support since a psychotic delusion seems vastly more credible.

And your argument would have a lesser weight than somebody who claims he has it.

No that doesn’t follow. If the claimant cannot prove the cause then the claim has less than zero weight since the sanity of the claimant must be questioned.

But even if you have spent long years hanging around in religious circles, it does not guarantee you a religious experience.

But it should increase the probability if such things were possible.

Which means that your long years no way make your argument authoritative.

I’m not sure that that follows either. I have seen a lot of gullible and emotional people think they have had such experiences only to admit afterwards significant doubt and then disbelief.

Second, religious experience can rarely be expressed in language- and that is my experience.

Sure just like most emotions. Can you accurately describe fear, or depression, or hate? A claimed religious experience appears no more than just another self-induced emotion. Our inability to accurately describe emotions has little bearing on whether any of them are supernatural or not.

 

[Cris]

The Visitor,

You reference the bible a lot as if it contains some truth. From my experience it appears no more than a collection of myths. I’m more interested in seeing your evidence of religious claims rather than reading your quotes from mythology as if such things might be true.

I had planned to respond to your post, but you quoted nothing of substance. Can you debate rather than preach please?

 

[TheVisitor]

Nice Try, ...Old Satan would have loved to come up against Jesus with His arms tied behind His back......

But The Word of God is our only defence.

I'm not a preacher and I'm not preaching.

The topic here - IS - religion ..........remember.

Satan is real, and He's more cunning than your powers of reason, more subtile than all the education the world has to give and He will decieve everyone and everything.....thats not standing on the Word of God.

Like I said, nice try........

If you want to debate, fine.

But the bible is accurate and true.......

If you can prove otherwise, your welcome to try.

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor,

The topic here - IS - religion ..........remember.

This is a debate forum not a church pulpit. If you make religious claims then be prepared to support them. Making unsupported assertions about your religious beliefs is indistinguishable from preaching.

Nice Try, ...Old Satan would have loved to come up against Jesus with His arms tied behind His back......

Neither Satan or Jesus can be shown to exist or to have ever existed.

But The Word of God is our only defence.

Defense against what?

I'm not a preacher and I'm not preaching.

You are continually quoting from the bible and implying what you say is true. That is preaching and that makes you a preacher.

Satan is real,

What’s your proof?

and He's more cunning than your powers of reason, more subtile than all the education the world has to give and He will decieve everyone and everything.....thats not standing on the Word of God.

You sound very gullible if you believe these ancient myths and superstitions.

Like I said, nice try........

What is it you think I’m trying to do?

If you want to debate, fine.

Do you know how without making religious assertions?

But the bible is accurate and true.......

That’s a massive claim. Quote something significant from the bible that you can prove is true.

If you can prove otherwise, your welcome to try.

The bible talks about the existence of a god, yet no one has ever been able to show that any such being exists, could exist, or has ever existed. It seems very obvious that this concept is just fantasy and that no such being exists or has ever existed. How then can you claim that the bible could possibly be true since the object of its text doesn’t exist?

 

[MarkM]

A God experience!

It is frightening, and takes courage to hear from God...

One night about 5 years ago, after giving me an intense spiritual dream, The Lord woke me up at 2 AM. He told me to go and repent (confess all my "bedrock bottom" worst sins) to my ex-wife's family! The sins were in relationship to how I treated my x-wife and her family. Then God showed me (when I was completely awake) with horrific clarity what it was I did to them. These were things that I was not able to admit to anyone (especially to myself). But God confronted me in a somewhat fierce way. Up until then I had thought it was all behind me. I believed I had finished the relationship satisfactorily and was forgiven and that was that; it was all finished and over. What God was telling me was, that if I really wanted to be a man of God, then I had to begin to be willing to do the REALLY hard stuff. In the immediacy of that moment God also gave me a terrible sense of what the consequences would be if I did not do this assignment. I sensed something incredibly serious about my eternal existence as well as theirs. I senced that my past actions had profound ramifications on others and myself. I HAD to do the confessing to deliver my x and her family out of hurt, bitterness, and deep un-forgiveness that was harming us all somehow. I sensed negative eternal consequences that I cannot interpret or put to words; and I cannot say anything beyond that. I don't know what these consequences were and I really did not WANT to know. This was Horrible! But the fear (if you will) propelled me to tell The Lord; "Yes, I will do it." In other words, I had more courage to say “yes”, than to say “no” BECAUSE I knew that the consequences to saying "no" would be way worse! I also told God that I knew, that in the morning, I could very easily blow this whole thing off as something I had conjured up somehow and then not do it. I knew I could very easily be too afraid to do it! So I asked Him if He would be willing to somehow allow the powerful sense of urgency to not leave me! And I asked Him if He would be willing to give me a very clear conformation to encourage me. I knew I would absolutely need it.
When morning came, the frighteningly fierce sense of urgency (for a lack of a better way to put it) never went away. It was as if, it would be better for me to drown myself with a millstone tied around my neck then to not do what it was God was telling me to do! I just cannot explain how it felt. I had some appointments that day and I decided that after the appointments I would begin the process of trying to find out contact information, etc of my x’s family. I had not been in touch with them since the divorce, more than 10 years prior, and I had no idea where they lived or anything.
My first appointment was a job interview. To get straight to the story, they hired me and told me to go take a drug test. They sent me to a clinic in another town that did the testing. This clinic happened to be about 10 FEET from my x wife's parent's pawnshop they owned and operated!!!
Actually, the son operated it. I had not been anywhere near this town for over 10 years and I had completely forgotten about the family owning that store! Now I was CONFRONTED with being about 10 feet from my x-wife’s family! I said to the Lord, "Lord, help me!", and I went into the pawn-shop (before going to my drug screen). My x-wife’s brother (John) was right there behind the counter. He was a Christian but I knew I had wronged that family terribly bad. I knew he would not be eager to see me at all. I had treated his sister terribly and abusively. I even forced her to divorce me because I did not have the courage to take responsibility for my actions. Only a few short months after we finally divorced, my x got into a car accident and was paralyzed from the neck down, for life! Can you see what I was up against?
I said, "John, I am here to find your family and confess all my sins against them; The Lord woke me up last night and told me I HAD to do this." His jaw dropped to the floor in shock and his eyes welled up with tears and he was not able to say anything. He just wrote his parents phone number and address on a business card and nodded his head, as if to say "Yes, this is absolutely something that HAS to be done."
I left. As I left, I remembered that I had really liked John a lot. We both liked each other but my actions against his sister had never really allowed us to be friends. It struck me, how my actions had harmed and caused division in the body of Christ!
After I got home from the drug screen I was so mind boggled about how The Lord had been with me. A very powerful sense of His presence had come over me when I went into the pawn shop. I knew I was with Him, and He was with me. He was helping me. I asked Him if I should I drive to my x-wife’s parent’s home, which was a long distance across the state. I actually WANTED to do the harder thing (rather than calling on the phone). Over the years I have learned that usually the HARDER thing is the better thing. But The Lord told me I could go ahead and call. I asked Him “when?" Then, all of a sudden, I saw a big fat 6 in my minds eye. It was kind of funny. He did not say "six", but showed me a huge 6. I was ready to do it, that very second, but I decided to go lay down in bed and pray (mainly for courage). I had about 45 minutes until it would be exactly 6:00pm so I laid down on the bed and prayed. During these 45 minutes something happened to me that has never happened in my life. As I laid there awake, just like a motion picture, I began to see, very vividly, EVERY SINGLE THING I had EVER done to my x-wife, and to her family, with horrendous clarity! Things I had not remembered at all. Things I did not WANT to remember! It was as if, everything I had ever done, was brought to me, to my face, one thing at a time. I was repulsed and could not believe how sick I had been! It was exceedingly worse than I had ever thought. I cannot explain how broken I became. It broke me!
After this experience finished, I looked up to the clock on my dresser and it was 5:59. I got up and went to the kitchen to make the call. Slowly, I dialed. Immediately, my x-mother-in-law answered. I knew that she HATED me (even though she herself was a devout Christian). I told her straight away who I was, and with a long pause, she replied "Ya…"? I could hear her surprised and bitter tone. Then just like God gave words to the prophets God began to pour out my horrible soul to her, confessing in detail my sins against her and her daughter and her whole family. I remember telling her that her daughter could not have married a worse person (at that time). It was way, way, way deep! I knew (in the spiritual realm, as I was confessing) that she had not forgiven me. She had not been ABLE to forgive me. She told me that she had forgiven me, but at that very moment, The Lord told me that she actually hadn't; she just THOUGHT she had. I also shared with her the guilt I had felt about destroying her daughter's life (feeling as if the car accident was my fault). I felt (especially because she got in that accident JUST as we were divorcing) that I had ruined her life. These were entirely repressed memories that I was absolutely out of touch with until the Holy Spirit moved them out of repression, as they came out of my mouth one by one! I was blown away by what I was hearing myself say. I was blown away by what I was doing!
I finished with her, and next, did the same with the father. The timing happened to be perfect because the whole family happened to be home. After I finished, he said to me, "Mark, I forgave you long ago", then The Lord told me that this was true. Suddenly, words came out of my mouth that again blew me away. I told him that I had never had a relational father and that every time I had seen HIM, I saw a father that I longed to have! (He really loved his kids…) I told him that I was never given the tools to have the courage to do the things I needed to do in life. This blew us both away! I broke down at that moment.
We finished that conversation and I thought I was done but the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said "No, you are not finished, you must talk with Lora". I truly thought that everything was finished between Lora and myself. I had apologized extensively, many times throughout the divorce. Suddenly, The Lord told me that I had not FINISHED BUSINESS with her. I then asked my x-father-in-law if I could talk with Lora. When she got on the phone, I told her what I had done (the confessing and pouring out to the mother and father) and then all of a sudden the Holy Spirit gave me these words: "Lora, you could not have been a better wife to me at that time, and I could not have been a worse husband. I take absolute responsibility before God for what happened. There is nothing you could have done to save the marriage. I did not want to be married.” She broke down immediately. Then these words came: "In some weird way God has used YOUR PAIN to better me as a husband. It is because of YOUR suffering that I have become a great husband to my wife today." There was weeping at both ends for a prolonged period of time.
After I finishing my assignment, Lora began to tell me that she was actually grateful to be paralyzed! She said that she has a relationship with God that is so strong that she would never trade it for anything in the world, including her health! She said that she knew that she would, and could, never be as close to God as she was now, if she had never gone through what she had! I could tell she was sincere.
We finished.

About a week later as I was driving down the highway, words (out of no where) came out of my mouth. They stunned me completely. They were "I have courage". I did not voluntarily speak these words, they came straight from God. He was telling me something. I was now beginning to have something I had never had before: courage!
Many times in our lives we are afraid to hear from The Lord. Many times He may not speak because we speak FOR Him (even to ourselves). The sin of PRESUMPTION. Many times we do not hear from Him because we don't want to REALLY hear what He wants to say. We may not want to pay the price. It may cost us everything.

On that particular occasion God's speaking to me was an answer to honest prayer. Specific prayers I had prayed for my own personal healing; prayers telling Him that I really wanted to be a man of God, to walk WITH Him. Praying these kinds of prayers still frightens me today. But we have to dig DEEP if we are going to KNOW Him and do HIS WORK. I heard it said once:

"the need to be wrong is very important in the kingdom of God".

If we get too concrete in our ideas we risk the danger of not hearing the Word of the Lord. If we miss the Word of the Lord we may miss everything. I could have easily missed or dismissed the Word of The Lord that day and never received the profound healing and benefits.

 

[Cris]

MarkM,

This is a debate forum and is not intended as a place for you to publish your apocryphal anecdotes, or to preach.

The topic was an opportunity to explore what is meant by religious experience not an excuse to publish claimed experiences.

Please refrain from such activities.

 

[man_of_jade]

Cris;
My post asked whether or not your assertion is a "Catch-22" and explains what that is in great detail. Answer the question I asked before saying you answered it.

 

[Cris]

Jade,

My post asked whether or not your assertion is a "Catch-22" and explains what that is in great detail. Answer the question I asked before saying you answered it.

I know what catch-22 means, and you didn’t explain it accurately, but that doesn’t matter. It doesn’t apply here.

So according to this explaination, is your assumption a "Catch-22?" Why do you believe that I am "confused" as to why I follow a religon for other reasons, when I have already explained otherwise(Why I started following it the first place was not to to a belief in the afterlife)?

It would appear you were attracted to your chosen religion not because of its religious tenets but because of its philosophical aspects, i.e. love your neighbor etc. But such ideas can be equally non-religious which really means you were following a philosophical idea and not a religion. As I have said and am taking great pains to explain, the basis of religious belief is the acceptance of existence outside of the physical, and a life beyond death. If you do not believe this then you are not religious.

 

[MarkM]

Chris,

The topic is: "what religious experience?"
My story is a first hand religious experience.
But I will try to keep it much shorter next time.

 

[man_of_jade]

Cris;
Explain how it does not apply here.

 

[Cris]

Jade,

Explain how it does not apply here.

Read my posts again and try to understand what I have said. I’ve repeated the same answer several ways now. Once you are able to comprehend the issue then you will realize why there is no catch-22 involved. I can’t do your thinking for you.

 

[man_of_jade]

I already explained in depth how it was a catch-22. Perhaps you simply dont see it.

 

[TheVisitor]

Cris,
You avoided all the real topics I stated.

If you can't believe in anything you can't see, you're in for trouble.
You can't see air, can you..? but you can see it's effects.

What, no answer...?

The same is true with God, but your eyes have to be open to see it, you won't with a closed mind

If you believe in love, sell me a cup of it, I said...
No answers................? Thats what I figured.

If you think you can prove the bible wrong, prove it...
I challanged you.....
Again, No answers..........? Thats what I figured.


The bible hold the answers to all the mysteries of the universe.
The answer to any question about life is there.

It's not a mythical book...it's a mystical book.

It's of supernatural origin, and it's secrets are "for the eyes only" of those God reveals them to.
Yes, it might as well be a mythical book to those He's hidden it from.

But it is the greatest source of wisdom there ever was, is, or ever will be - because the bible is God.

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor,

You avoided all the real topics I stated.

You didn’t state any real topics. I saw a lot of assertions about Satan and God etc.

If you can't believe in anything you can't see, you're in for trouble.
You can't see air, can you..? but you can see it's effects.

What, no answer...?

You appear to have answered your own question. Many things that can’t be seen can indeed be detected by many other means. Science does a good job tracing cause and effect.

You seem to want to say that because God can’t be seen then that doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. What you can’t do is show that the effects we observe are caused by God. There is always an alternative and more credible non-supernatural explanation for anything you might like to suggest that you attribute to gods; either that or we have to accept that we do not have answers yet. Claiming that a god did the things we can’t explain is to accept the mentality of the ignorant caveman.

The same is true with God, but your eyes have to be open to see it, you won't with a closed mind

My mind is open to all possibilities. Your mind appears entirely closed to everything except the limiting single very narrow minded primitive concept that a god did it. With some mental discipline and a true desire to seek facts and truth you might be able to lift yourself out of the quagmire of your indoctrination and discover reality.

If you believe in love, sell me a cup of it, I said...
No answers................? Thats what I figured.

What is this weird tactic you have of asking idiotic questions and immediately assuming there are no answers and taking pride in yourself for thinking you were somehow correct? Can you debate with integrity?

If you think you can prove the bible wrong, prove it...
I challanged you.....
Again, No answers..........? Thats what I figured.

I have made no claims that I can prove the bible is wrong. Neither is there any onus on me to prove that your claims are wrong. That is not how the world works. I have suggested that the bible is based on and is entirely mythical in every significant detail. And there is no reason to believe anything else.

You began by making unsupported claims and assertions that the bible is true. You have no credibility and there is no reason to believe you until you support your claims. Until then your bible and your claims appear just as works of imaginative fiction. There is no need for me to prove anything different since there is no precedent for the existence of gods. The status quo is that there are no gods, if you want to change that then prove your claims.

As with any truly intellectual or scientific endeavor the onus is always on the claimant to support their claims before anyone can be expected to believe such claims. There is no intellectual integrity in making incredible and unsupported claims and then challenging others to prove you wrong.

Now I understand the immense difficulty you face because there is no evidence that gods exist or that the bible is true. I know that you cannot show that your claims are true. People have been trying for thousands of years and have still not succeeded. It seems highly unlikely that you will suddenly make a breakthrough. I also understand that in order to escape the paradox of your situation you are forced to try to turn the tables and challenge others to prove you wrong. Sorry but that is not how knowledge is introduced into reality.

The bible hold the answers to all the mysteries of the universe.
The answer to any question about life is there.

It's not a mythical book...it's a mystical book.

Again these are vacuous and useless claims unless you can support them with facts.

It's of supernatural origin, and it's secrets are "for the eyes only" of those God reveals them to.

Again if you want people to believe you then prove that an alleged supernatural exists or is even possible. You have zero credibility otherwise.

Yes, it might as well be a mythical book to those He's hidden it from.

But you can’t show that it isn’t mythical though or that he exists. You have nothing of substance to support your incredible claims.

But it is the greatest source of wisdom there ever was, is, or ever will be - because the bible is God.

Riiiiight! But then the same claims are made for the Koran or even more relevant is the Bhagavad-Gita, now that contains some superb wisdom and pre-dates the bible by several thousand years.

So why do you think the bible is better than the Gita?

 

[TheVisitor]

Believe what you will, Cris...believe what you will....

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor,

Believe what you will, Cris...believe what you will....

What......no answer. I thought so.

Just one single simple fact that proves anything you say might be true is all that you need to do.

Without that you have nothing but hot air.

The issue is not a matter of belief it is a matter of proven truth. You have no proof so you can't claim any truths, all you have are irrational beliefs.

 

[notme2000]

Lately I have really found "my place in life". I wake up every morning loving life and I feel blessed. I was thinking about it the other day, and this is the feeling religious people probably call "finding God". To be honest, I feel so blessed I even considered it... But even in this rapture, logic still stands firm, so I see God as the least likely of many possibilities... I find it much more likely that my life is so great right now because I made it that way. I earned it. And that's what makes it so great, it wasn't given to me... I was not blessed.

 

[TheVisitor]

MarkM

MarK, your post was absoluty the best thing I've heard in a long time.
It really hit me , and I could tell God has dealt with you.

I'm not so good at putting personal experiances to words but I have had a very similar experiance....and I recognise the Hand of the Lord. It is not slack concerning correction of His children, but that means He loves you or He wouldn't be dealing with you at all.
You are very fortunate. All things work for the good of them who love the Lord.

(P.S. don't let some people try to discorage you, your post was great and can be used to help others......thats why it was immedently attacked by the "moderator" , who also tried telling me not to qoute from the bible or talk about God...on a religious forum. )
All things are posible, only believe.

TheVisitor

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor, MarkM,

thats why it was immedently attacked by the "moderator" , who also tried telling me not to qoute from the bible or talk about God...on a religious forum. )

No not at all. Please take care with your accusations. This is a debate forum not a Christian church pulpit.

The bible is a great source of information and certainly contains some wisdom. Using that in a religious debate is essential to many of the discussions here. But there is a significant difference between debating biblical issues and preaching. There are plenty of Christian websites where you can do that.

Neither should this place be used as an excuse to give Christian testimony, which is what Mark is doing. Again there are Christian websites where you can do that.

Neither is proselytizing welcome here.

If you make a proposal please try to support it with reasoned arguments. This is the essence of debate. If you quote from a piece of literature, such as the bible, then you still need to support the quote with reasoned arguments if the debate is to have any value.

Cris (In Moderator Mode)