Those sound ok to me. The objection is to what you've been posting.syne said:If you disagree with any of these, please provide alternatives (with sources).
You are pretending to not know what "drunk" means, or what consent means, or what actions are involved in the act of sexual assault.
Syne:
Are you suggesting that being a drunk perpetrator should be a legitimate defence to a charge of sexual assault or rape?
...
You seem to be confusing a drunk perpetrator's choices with a drunk victim's inability to give valid consent.
...
Please clarify your view on this in more detail for us, Syne.
No, of course being drunk is not a legitimate defense. Seems everyone here likes to assume the worst.
With the prevalence of false rape stories in the news, the notion of 'rape culture' harms both victims of real rape and the innocently accused. Not to mention the harm it does to children growing up in an environment that seems to assume them probable criminals based on gender alone.
That's not what you were doing. You were attempting to claim that the law regarded all drunken people as incapacitated and unable to consent, and you were attempting to confuse consent with perpetration. Why you were attempting to do those things is the only issue remaining from them.syne said:I'm mainly contrasting the lack of legal liability for both parties being drunk and consenting with the liability to the man in such cases being tried in the court of 'rape culture'-assuming public opinion, at the barest hint of allegation.
No, they can't.syne said:A drunk perpetrator's choices and a drunk victim's inability to give valid consent is not the only possible combination. Both can equally display consenting behavior while unable to give legal consent.
Which is one of the serious problems with harboring a rape culture - if you raise your young men to obliviously tolerate, even abet, sexual assault then you are going to be raising your young women to take precautions accordingly.syne said:Not to mention the harm it does to children growing up in an environment that seems to assume them probable criminals based on gender alone.
No. Your numbers don't support the idea--which hardly matters anyways, as the notion is NOT dependent upon these fucking numbers, as has been made abundantly clear countless times at this point. But anyhow... --others have provided info regarding numbers and percentages of women who do not report rape, and their reasons for not doing so, again, countless times.
But whatever... At this point I'm convinced you're just trolling. Actually, I kinda was after the repeated insistence that you haven't heard rape jokes, and have only encountered rape in film or television, like, twice. Seriously?
So you're saying you've never watched, I don't know, South Park, Family Guy, SNL, I could go on four fucking hours here? But is this what you're saying: that you've never seen the three aforementioned shows?
do we need to go over the dangers of pretending to be stupid again?Seriously. Rape hasn't been a common theme in my viewing history. And, no, I'm not trolling. Rape Culture hasn't been apparent in my long life.
I believe that. I believe these guys honestly can't imagine how else one could possibly deal with pervasive misogyny and its consequences, other than something like that. A reality in which women are not treated with contempt and prejudicial disdain at the same time as men are not treated with contempt and prejudicial disdain, is simply beyond their comprehension. It would be like a world in which trees grew sideways.Should we just assume guilt when a man is accused, maybe require him to prove his innocent because, you know, he must be a rapist, he's a man? That's the only resolve I can see that might make those women come forward.
So we are to believe most women don't report rape? Well, how do we fix the problem? Should we just assume guilt when a man is accused, maybe require him to prove his innocent because, you know, he must be a rapist, he's a man? That's the only resolve I can see that might make those women come forward.
Parmalee said:... I should think it becomes clear that the question is not really “Why do so few women report rape?,” but rather, “Why do so many women actually report rape?”—when one considers what is likely to come of it.
I could not tell you what the vague sense of familiarity is about your point, except to simply say perhaps something like it has occurred to me in a fit of cynicism and thus didn't stick, or something, but in truth I don't recall actually encountering it before.
It's an important point. Thank you.
I also find myself recalling a farcical scene that has been flashing to mind in recent weeks. Do you recall the scene in Airplane! when the woman starts freaking out, and the stewardess tries to calm her? Then the woman's husband grabs her, telling her to calm down, and starts shaking her aggressively? And then Leslie Nielsen steps in, reminding that he's a doctor, but only beats her? So a nun pulls him away and then attacks the woman, and the camera shows the passengers lining up with violence in their eyes and weapons to beat the shit out of her with?
Yet it's not the thrashing of the distressed woman that draws my attention; rather, it's a metaphor.
I lit into someone in another thread for something that annoys the hell out of me, and also, quite frankly, seems at least as dangerous as it is stupid. You've been around here long enough to remember a string of threads regarding catcalling and harassment, abortion politics, rape culture, and the overarching subject of misogyny; and you might also recall that for several years the argument that you or I might describe as defending or promoting misogyny―which, of course, those advocates loathe and denounce―hasn't really changed?
A number of points might apply here, such as the contrast between the complaint of describing all men as rapists or misogynists, and where those descriptions actually come from. It isn't those who denounce misogyny and rape culture, for instance, who tried comparing men's libido to a hand grenade, nor rely on a male's prerogative; indeed. Nor are they the ones telling women to suspect everyone. We really should acknowledge that after so many repetitions, it doesn't look like an accident. That is to say, at some point it seems absolutely and dangerously stupid to pretend these are just innocent, well-intended people accidentally clodhopping their way into rape advocacy or other misogyny; it really does start to seem calculated.
We need not dismiss that for my purpose at the moment; it's related, and more than tangentially, because the next thing is to remind that we need not actually entertain notions of any conspiracies.
Conspiracies?
Right.
It seems like no matter how much information we give this other bloc, the discussion frequently needs to reset and restart. Consider the topic post, which inquires about rape culture; if we take the question as genuine, there are plenty of ways to answer, and some of us tried. But the topic poster quickly tacked to raise a straw man, and the discussion swirled around that. A couple days later, another member checks in and raises the same straw man. And something like a month and a half later someone else checks in to raise the same straw man.
And this is the way it goes. With each new iteration, the same characteristic applies: The advocate is ignoring everything that came before. So we're obliged in some manner to go about it again.
And we keep going through this. Over and over and over. Something about "just read the damn thread" goes here, you know?
And it's like the scene from Airplane! Not a whit of human sympathy; it's just a woman, after all. It's like they're lining up, and as soon as one exhausts the argument, the next one steps up to try to start it all over again.
And no, it's not conspiratorial; it's just the blatant, hateful stupidity of these people. They're scared to death that society might someday actually recognize the humanity of women, and this pathetic begging for a do-over is all they can come up with.
For some strange reason, they expect us to be polite about it.
Here’s the fun one, though: So, Bowser pulls his straw man stunt at the outset; Milkweed raises rape statistics two days later and deploys the same straw man. And now Bowser just reciprocated by pulling the rape statistics we've already been over.
We might even wonder about the timing, except it really is all they have, so we ought not be surprised by the idea, say, that one might provide examples↑ of rape culture↑ in effect, and the next thing↑ that happens is someone hauls up a straw man and the subject changes.
If the data indicates that, yes. (Which it does, both in terms of epidemiological studies and my own experience.)So we are to believe most women don't report rape?
Excellent question. There are a lot of ways. Education (of both sexes) is one. Better enforcement is another. More basic changes in culture will be a critical part, but are very hard to force.Well, how do we fix the problem?
Then see a little farther. That's a terrible solution to the problem.Should we just assume guilt when a man is accused, maybe require him to prove his innocent because, you know, he must be a rapist, he's a man? That's the only resolve I can see that might make those women come forward.
And measles hasn't been a common theme in my viewing history. It doesn't make the anti-vaxxers any less of a threat to public health.Seriously. Rape hasn't been a common theme in my viewing history.
Sounds more like you are saying "look, I just don't usually look at the sky; it's just something that doesn't really concern me. But somehow I know it's green. Because I saw a picture with a green sky, and I don't believe the people who say it's blue."Rape Culture hasn't been apparent in my long life. It is as though everyone was telling me that the sky is green, yet it looks blue to me.
This is an interesting theory, but is there any evidence?
That's not what you were doing. You were attempting to claim that the law regarded all drunken people as incapacitated and unable to consent, and you were attempting to confuse consent with perpetration. Why you were attempting to do those things is the only issue remaining from them.
No, they can't.
Which is one of the serious problems with harboring a rape culture - if you raise your young men to obliviously tolerate, even abet, sexual assault then you are going to be raising your young women to take precautions accordingly.
It should also be trivial that they are 1) comparatively rare and 2) dependent on a prevalence of rape that cannot exist without a protective and enabling culture.syne said:It should be trivial that false rape stories are harmful to real victims and falsely accused.
Your source did not even include the word "drunk", the key feature of your attempted deception via false claims.syne said:"That's not what you were doing. You were attempting to claim that the law regarded all drunken people as incapacitated and unable to consent, and you were attempting to confuse consent with perpetration. Why you were attempting to do those things is the only issue remaining from them."
I didn't make that claim. I cited a source that did:
The opposite, of course. You have it exactly backwards.syne said:Assuming 'rape culture' seems to presume that rape is a natural inclination of most men, that must be resisted. -
There's no real argument. The issue is only raised at all because guys like you insist on wallowing in your own shit, and it's only responded to because treating your posting with appropriate contempt may do some good.tali said:Why are we still arguing about whether a rape culture exists?
It's the denial of rape culture that demonizes men, as it leaves only inherent nature to explain the prevalence of the threat of rape and its tolerance, excuse, denial, and abetment in a given culture.tali said:Or am I hitting a little too close to a nerve when I attempt to explore why some individuals cling so tightly to beliefs that demonize men?
Tali89 said:Or am I hitting a little too close to a nerve when I attempt to explore why some individuals cling so tightly to beliefs that demonize men?
tali89: Why are we still arguing about whether a rape culture exists?
iceaura: There's no real argument.
It's the denial of rape culture that demonizes men, as it leaves only inherent nature to explain the prevalence of the threat of rape ... (emphasis mine)
If you deny the nurture aspect of a human behavior, the nature aspect is made prominent.
No, you're just trolling,
Man receives sex act while blacked out, gets accused of sexual assault
An Amherst College student blacked out, accompanied a fellow student back to her dorm room after drinking in February 2012. While he was blacked out, she performed oral sex on him.
Nearly two years later, she would accuse him of sexual assault. And under Amherst's guilty-until-proven-innocent (and even then, as we'll see, still guilty) hearing standards, the accused student was expelled.
The accused student — using the pseudonym John Doe —is suingthe college for denying him due process. His lawyer had discovered text messages that prove the accused student did not initiate the encounter and in no way sexually assaulted the accuser. Despite this evidence, the college refused to reopen Doe's case.