What is God's mercy?

[Rav]

regarding torture without end being the antithesis of mercy, the definition of hell is a place that is void of god's love. that's the whole point. hell is the place where those who want nothing to do with god go in satisfaction of that desire.

Sure. C S Lewis made the same argument in his book "The Great Divorce"; "I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside." One could also argue that all of the colourful descriptions of the nature of Hell in the Bible are simply symptoms of the absence of God's love and that it is absent not because it has been withheld but rather, because it has been rejected.

But why is it, then, that unbelievers are not suffering in the same way already? Is it because they haven't truly rejected God? But what about those who have committed the unforgivable sin of Blasphemy? It appears that the consequences of rejecting God begin in death, or on the last day when we are all judged, and not in life.

This presents a problem. How many people have such hatred toward God that they would rather lock themselves in Hell rather than try to find it within themselves to accept him? And how many people would choose to hold onto that hatred and resentment for all eternity instead of seeking God's mercy? Not many, I would imagine. But how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Bible teaches that only a handful will be saved?

It's pretty clear that the fact that a person hasn't completely rejected God is not enough to ensure salvation. You have to properly accept him in life, or suffer the consequences. At least that is what the Bible clearly teaches, and it brings us right back to the question of mercy.

 

[wynn]

Sure. C S Lewis made the same argument in his book "The Great Divorce"; "I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside."

How much of this Protestant position is actually the reflection of the Protestants being unable or unwilling to explain theism to other people in terms people could actually understand and act upon?


For all his education and erudition, I think CS Lewis had an extremely crude, unsophisticated intellect.

 

[Lori_7]

Sure. C S Lewis made the same argument in his book "The Great Divorce"; "I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside." One could also argue that all of the colourful descriptions of the nature of Hell in the Bible are simply symptoms of the absence of God's love and that it is absent not because it has been withheld but rather, because it has been rejected.

i would agree with that.

But why is it, then, that unbelievers are not suffering in the same way already? Is it because they haven't truly rejected God? But what about those who have committed the unforgivable sin of Blasphemy? It appears that the consequences of rejecting God begin in death, or on the last day when we are all judged, and not in life.

because none of us exist in isolation like that. the way i see it, currently, in life, we all experience the cumulative results of good and evil, together. but i speculate that heaven and hell are an extrapolation or isolation of the results of each.

This presents a problem. How many people have such hatred toward God that they would rather lock themselves in Hell rather than try to find it within themselves to accept him? And how many people would choose to hold onto that hatred and resentment for all eternity instead of seeking God's mercy? Not many, I would imagine. But how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Bible teaches that only a handful will be saved?

i don't really know that the bible says that. there are multiple deaths, and in the end, it's not clear how many.

also, when i look at the state of humanity in the world today, i have to ask myself, how bad does it have to get? you know what i mean? let's be honest here, we're on the brink of the fucking apocalypse and the majority of people don't really give a shit. isn't that apparent?

It's pretty clear that the fact that a person hasn't completely rejected God is not enough to ensure salvation. You have to properly accept him in life, or suffer the consequences. At least that is what the Bible clearly teaches, and it brings us right back to the question of mercy.

i don't assume that your ability to seek god ceases upon physical death.

 

[Rav]

i don't really know that the bible says that. there are multiple deaths, and in the end, it's not clear how many.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." - Matthew 7:12-14

How else would you interpret this?

i don't assume that your ability to seek god ceases upon physical death.

That would certainly solve the problem of God's mercy that we are discussing here. If it is true I would imagine that many people, after suffering the consequences of separating themselves from God's love for a time, might start reflecting upon the pointlessness of their own resentment and cry out for forgiveness. This would mean that only those who remained eternally unrepentant would be punished indefinitely.

I'm certain however that it would be difficult to demonstrate this from scripture, because you'd have to somehow overcome the wealth of material that talks about the final and eternal nature of God's punishment.

 

[Lori_7]

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." - Matthew 7:12-14

How else would you interpret this?



That would certainly solve the problem of God's mercy that we are discussing here. If it is true I would imagine that many people, after suffering the consequences of separating themselves from God's love for a time, might start reflecting upon the pointlessness of their own resentment and cry out for forgiveness. This would mean that only those who remained eternally unrepentant would be punished indefinitely.

I'm certain however that it would be difficult to demonstrate this from scripture, because you'd have to somehow overcome the wealth of material that talks about the final and eternal nature of God's punishment.

well, i watched a documentary about near death experience once, and one of the subjects said he went to hell. he said he knew why he was there and he said he called out to jesus, and jesus came and took him out. he described the place as entirely dark and violent, and he had been hurt. he said that jesus' presence began as a small point of light that grew brighter and brighter. in the light, the guy could see his own wounds, and he was a mess. jesus healed his wounds and took him out. prior to jesus' arrival in hell the man had been surrounded by other beings (those who had hurt him, and were hurting each other as well). i couldn't understand why those other beings didn't see what was going on, and ask jesus to save them too, so i asked god. god said that when the light came, the others hid from it because they were afraid of it. afraid to see themselves in it, and afraid of judgement (which is actually just the truth about themselves).

when i look at humanity in the world, i can see this is true of many people.

 

[Rav]

I stumbled upon an interesting website that is relevant to this discussion. It ultimately argues, from scripture, that the eternal nature of Hell is separation from God, and that as God is the source of all life, separation from God is separation from existence. It also makes the point that the only way that sin can be cleansed from the world is to destroy it rather than allow it to remain eternally.

The arguments are much more comprehensive than that of course, so if anyone wants to discuss it further I recommend you check it out. Since I am only here to discuss the specific topic at hand, and not to formulate an understanding of Christianity that I can embrace, I might not contribute much more, although it depends on how any further discussion unfolds.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

well, i watched a documentary about near death experience once, and one of the subjects said he went to hell. he said he knew why he was there and he said he called out to jesus, and jesus came and took him out. he described the place as entirely dark and violent, and he had been hurt. he said that jesus' presence began as a small point of light that grew brighter and brighter. in the light, the guy could see his own wounds, and he was a mess. jesus healed his wounds and took him out. prior to jesus' arrival in hell the man had been surrounded by other beings (those who had hurt him, and were hurting each other as well). i couldn't understand why those other beings didn't see what was going on, and ask jesus to save them too, so i asked god. god said that when the light came, the others hid from it because they were afraid of it. afraid to see themselves in it, and afraid of judgement (which is actually just the truth about themselves).

when i look at humanity in the world, i can see this is true of many people.

Mary , Mary quite contrary , Come to the dark said , We have cookies , Monster Cookies, 24 hours a day. In the light of day and in the darkness of night. 24 hours non stop. Where the light burns all the time. We will give you a glass of wine

 

[Rav]

Mary , Mary quite contrary , Come to the dark said , We have cookies , Monster Cookies, 24 hours a day. In the light of day and in the darkness of night. 24 hours non stop. Where the light burns all the time. We will give you a glass of wine

When are you going to post something of substance Me-Ki-Gal? I don't think I've actually ever seen you really say anything.

 

[Lori_7]

When are you going to post something of substance Me-Ki-Gal? I don't think I've actually ever seen you really say anything.

at least she's funny. :shrug:

 

[Lori_7]

I stumbled upon an interesting website that is relevant to this discussion. It ultimately argues, from scripture, that the eternal nature of Hell is separation from God, and that as God is the source of all life, separation from God is separation from existence. It also makes the point that the only way that sin can be cleansed from the world is to destroy it rather than allow it to remain eternally.

The arguments are much more comprehensive than that of course, so if anyone wants to discuss it further I recommend you check it out. Since I am only here to discuss the specific topic at hand, and not to formulate an understanding of Christianity that I can embrace, I might not contribute much more, although it depends on how any further discussion unfolds.

the way i figure it, if the wages of sin is death and destruction, then all you have to do is isolate it, and it will take care of itself.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I stumbled upon an interesting website that is relevant to this discussion. It ultimately argues, from scripture, that the eternal nature of Hell is separation from God, and that as God is the source of all life, separation from God is separation from existence. It also makes the point that the only way that sin can be cleansed from the world is to destroy it rather than allow it to remain eternally.

The arguments are much more comprehensive than that of course, so if anyone wants to discuss it further I recommend you check it out. Since I am only here to discuss the specific topic at hand, and not to formulate an understanding of Christianity that I can embrace, I might not contribute much more, although it depends on how any further discussion unfolds.

We make our own hells and we make hell for the people we pigeon hole. Some live in darker depression than others , but for the most part the sentiment is the same. We find contempt for this group or that group make them our scape goat an seal it with our personal hell manifested in our very own actions and when you have enough players on each side then wham the war of words really start flying, sometimes it can even erupt into violence. Just watch the House of Commons over seas and you will know what I mean. Same above as below I always say. Spirits are the personalities you take on in your life by learning about the past. You internalize the personalities that you learn just by being human. Humans Copy Humans ( Get over It) So to except Baby Jesus the red headed step child of Joe you are excepting what He is all about and what was it about again? Oh yeah love all the brothers and sisters and what ever you do to them you have done to Me.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

at least she's funny. :shrug:

That depends on what you think nothing is, My dear. Lighten up your heart is my suggestion , You do have a choice , Maybe ? What did the Preacher say ? Man's sole duty was ? Enjoy Life !! Enjoy the fruits of your labor! Take your portion of life to live , something like that. Maybe you can tell us more about that for the theme is riddled through out the bible from the beginning to the end. I bet you could pull a rabbit out of your very own hat and give use a beautiful example we could all treasure for the rest of our lives. I think you are a bible reader . At least I believe you are.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

When are you going to post something of substance Me-Ki-Gal? I don't think I've actually ever seen you really say anything.

You should wipe the sleet out of your Eyes and you might realize something you didn't before. A lot of people think I say nothing, but then again some people think I say lots of things in a single word. I guess you could say it is perspective . Get out your 3d spectacles and you just might see something you didn't before . I guess it's true what they say though. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

 

[Lori_7]

That depends on what you think nothing is, My dear. Lighten up your heart is my suggestion , You do have a choice , Maybe ? What did the Preacher say ? Man's sole duty was ? Enjoy Life !! Enjoy the fruits of your labor! Take your portion of life to live , something like that. Maybe you can tell us more about that for the theme is riddled through out the bible from the beginning to the end. I bet you could pull a rabbit out of your very own hat and give use a beautiful example we could all treasure for the rest of our lives. I think you are a bible reader . At least I believe you are.

i read it when god tells me too, which honestly isn't all that often. more than anything god imparts via the spirit to me and in regards to my experience. it in turn, makes the bible the story of my life.

i'm not sure why you think i'm so contrary dear. for the most part i am at peace, just not in an ignorance is bliss kind of way. know what i mean?

 

[Rav]

You should wipe the sleet out of your Eyes and you might realize something you didn't before. A lot of people think I say nothing, but then again some people think I say lots of things in a single word. I guess you could say it is perspective . Get out your 3d spectacles and you just might see something you didn't before . I guess it's true what they say though. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

I guess I'm just not a fan of vagaries. Effective communication is partly about making an effort to ensure that other people can understand what you are really saying. If they have to try too hard to figure it out it's counter-productive.

I'm sure you have lots of interesting things to say Me-Ki-Gal. I'm sure you are an interesting person. So why not let yourself shine more clearly?

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

the way i figure it, if the wages of sin is death and destruction, then all you have to do is isolate it, and it will take care of itself.

Sorry Lori , I am dyslexic and struggle to understand. Other person Don't do it my vengeance is not good. I am nice for the most part

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

i read it when god tells me too, which honestly isn't all that often. more than anything god imparts via the spirit to me and in regards to my experience. it in turn, makes the bible the story of my life.

i'm not sure why you think i'm so contrary dear. for the most part i am at peace, just not in an ignorance is bliss kind of way. know what i mean?

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. Water is the most corrosive substance. Can you see the hidden language? You sound like you can . What do you think of the up rising in Egypt. I know I am off point , but I depend on seers for information

 

[Rav]

I am dyslexic and struggle to understand

Well, don't I feel like a bastard now. But it's good to understand these things about other people. Now that I do I don't think I am going to have a problem with trying a little harder to divine your true messages.

Carry on

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I guess I'm just not a fan of vagaries. Effective communication is partly about making an effort to ensure that other people can understand what you are really saying. If they have to try too hard to figure it out it's counter-productive.

I'm sure you have lots of interesting things to say Me-Ki-Gal. I'm sure you are an interesting person. So why not let yourself shine more clearly?

I try Man I try, My mind was cursed as a child and my difficulties to understand were diminished some how . I might have played with mercury one to many times. Mad as a hatter and all , But what ever . I can only express my self the best I can. If it was not for Lauren ( My space =Gerty McDowell) I would not even be as clear as I am now. For she helped Me to communicate. I love her for that . She is a very giving person. I wish more people where like her

 

[Lori_7]

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. Water is the most corrosive substance. Can you see the hidden language? You sound like you can . What do you think of the up rising in Egypt. I know I am off point , but I depend on seers for information

it's a sign of the times. it's inevitable, and indicative of what's to come.

nobody really cares so much about corruption as long as they're getting what they need. but when the what should have been obvious consequences catch up with all of us, everyone all of a sudden wants to protest. :shrug: