What is God's mercy?

[Adstar]

Except that God (bible God) is both merciful and unmerciful simultaneously. I mean honestly, I'm pretty good at reasoning things out. But I just can't resolve this one to my satisfaction unless at some point I ignore or try to sneak past what the bible clearly teaches.

The bible time and time again gives examples of when an offender or offenders as a group have approached God with contrition for their offence God has been quick to forgive them. Their repentance has resulted in God's mercy being made available to them.

God has never shown mercy of forgiveness for those who have never asked for His forgiveness and have no contrition for their offence.

God’s mercy has only ever been activated and made available to people by their repentance and acknowledgement of their offence as an offense.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

I just read the rest of you post and just have to reply to your points:

I've heard all the arguments. In fact I've made them all myself. Hell is not really a fiery furnace, it's just a metaphor for spiritual separation from God. God doesn't send us there, we effectively choose to go. Blah blah blah et cetera et cetera. I've even tried to argue around the apparent finality of eternal damnation with sneaky semantical tricks and novel scriptural interpretations. But in the end it's all pretty clear. If you're not right with God when the end comes, you're screwed. Forever.

I detect a deep disagreement with the reality of the eternal nature of the Lake of Fire. It seems in the past you tried your best to teach a denial of the reality of it and sought to sideline it as a metaphor. But in the end disagreement leads to rebellion which leads to disbelief. You seem to have gone down the path of many former christians.

And being right with God means more than just paying him lip service and trying to be a decent person. Being right with God means significant personal sacrifices and lifestyle changes. You basically have to repent of all your sins, become a disciple of Jesus Christ and actively try to bring as many other people to God as you possibly can for the rest of your life. That is what the Bible demands.

A Works based belief in winning ones own salvation is a denial of the effective Atonement of the Messiah Jesus. You belief in this matter no matter how genuinely held is false and will eventually lead to the person being spewed out of belief.

Lack of performance in being like Jesus should cause Christians regret and shame. But belief that failure to live up to the wonderful/perfect example of Jesus is cause for ones eternal condemnation is a slipperyside to oblivion as you reveal in your personal testimony of your falling away from Jesus.

Ok, fine. Let's assume that God is real, the Bible is his message to us, and that we need to put it all into practice.

Once agian you assume wrong. We need to Believe it. Our efforts in putting it into practice has no bearing on our eternal destination.

So off I go and do just that. Not just for the sake of it but because I've found God and I've genuinely embraced it all. Jackpot. Eternal salvation. It's not a lottery of course, but it is a reward. The Bible characterizes it as such. Life couldn't be better (life on Earth, that is). But eventually something occurs to me and slowly starts eating away at my newfound joy. I love my Mum. I love my little brothers and sisters. I love my Grandmother. But even worse than that (and you might get why it's worse in just a second), I love my dead Grandfather. My Dad wasn't in the picture when I was growing up so he was the closest thing I had to a father. And he died a couple of years ago. I imagine that you can already see where I'm going with this.

My Grandfather was the most generous man I have ever known. He had his faults that's for sure, but there's nothing he wouldn't have done for me, his family or his friends. I have very fond memories of him. We sprinkled his ashes into the ocean near where he grew up after he died. But as much as I loved him, he was apparently afflicted with the greatest flaw of all. He was agnostic, and certainly not a disciple of Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, he's going to burn in hell forever. And if I (or someone else) can't manage to bring them to God before they die, my mother, my grandmother, my two little brothers and sisters and all my friends are destined to meet the same fate. Suddenly I'm not feeling so fucking happy about going to heaven one day. What do you think I'm going to be thinking about the whole time I'm there?

So you love your grandfather and other family members more that you love Jesus? what did Jesus say about that?

Matthew 10
37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Each individual is responsible for their own acceptance or rejection of the Message of the Messiah Jesus. If your grandfather did receive the true message of the Messiah Jesus and rejected it (i don't know if he did) then he will have eternity in the lake of fire for doing so.

I'm sorry for making this post so personal. But it's necessary to explore the reality of what we're talking about. It is personal.

Yes it is personal. But it is good that you gave your thoughts clearly, it gives and opportunity for them to be measured against the Word of God and your misconceptions can be revealed and explored.

And when you look at it, the way it really is, ultimately there is no fucking mercy, not for all of us anyway.

Not for anyone who rejects the atonement of the Messiah Jesus. But for me there is mercy.

So to answer the question posed by the OP, "What is God's Mercy?", when all is said and done I can't see how you could argue that he has any.

Of course He has mercy, But your disagreement with his will has caused you to be lead down a path where you have falsely come to this conclusion that He has no mercy.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Rav]

I detect a deep disagreement with the reality of the eternal nature of the Lake of Fire.

I'm not sure I'd call it a disagreement. That would imply that I believe that Hell is real. I don't. For the most part I was simply exploring a hypothetical.

Yes it is personal. But it is good that you gave your thoughts clearly, it gives and opportunity for them to be measured against the Word of God and your misconceptions can be revealed and explored.

Actually, I don't believe that I have any misconceptions. For example you assumed that I was presenting a works based model of salvation but I actually understand that the bible teaches that faith and works must go hand in hand. It's kind of implied when someone uses the phrase "become a disciple of Jesus Christ", don't you think? My comments on this point have not been biblically inconsistent, although they might seem to be (by virtue of the fact that I did not drive the whole point about the importance of faith home like you've done) to anyone who is looking for fault. But you know what? None of this is related to the main point I was making or the topic at hand anyway. It was all just narration.

Of course He has mercy, But your disagreement with his will has caused you to be lead down a path where you have falsely come to this conclusion that He has no mercy.

I guess I did contradict myself didn't I? At first I said that God is both merciful and unmerciful but I ended by suggesting that he didn't have any mercy at all. So allow me to correct my error. On the day of judgment God's final act with respect to man will be to save a handful of believers and condemn everyone else to eternal damnation. So, mercy for some but none for most. In other words, conditional mercy. It doesn't matter how you formulate it or even what perspective you take, this is how the God of the bible has set everything up. So to once again relate this back to the question asked by the OP, 'What is God's mercy?", my answer remains the same. I don't see how you can argue that he has any. Could our own criminal justice system be considered merciful if we executed everyone who had committed a crime except for those who adhered to a particular belief system even though those same people had actually committed and continued to commit some of the crimes that others were executed for?

Oops. It appears that I didn't really contradict myself after all.

 

[Yazata]

I detect a deep disagreement with the reality of the eternal nature of the Lake of Fire.

Even those who don't believe that your so-called "lake of fire" exists can still critique the ethics of that particular religious myth.

It seems in the past you tried your best to teach a denial of the reality of it and sought to sideline it as a metaphor. But in the end disagreement leads to rebellion which leads to disbelief. You seem to have gone down the path of many former christians.

Do you think that particular path to disbelief is wrong? If so, then how would you avoid its conclusion?

A Works based belief in winning ones own salvation is a denial of the effective Atonement of the Messiah Jesus. You belief in this matter no matter how genuinely held is false and will eventually lead to the person being spewed out of belief.

So salvation is neatly separated from ethics.

Adolph Hitler enjoys eternal bliss in heaven provided only that he calls upon Jesus at his last moment in the Fuhrer Bunker, while non-Christians who devote their lives to loving others and to doing the best that they can are tortured for ever and ever, because they didn't make a magic invocation.

Lack of performance in being like Jesus should cause Christians regret and shame. But belief that failure to live up to the wonderful/perfect example of Jesus is cause for ones eternal condemnation is a slipperyside to oblivion as you reveal in your personal testimony of your falling away from Jesus.

This isn't a question of mankind having to be as good as Jesus. It's a question of God having to be as good as mankind.

We can't completely separate religion from ethics. Even if human beings can't be as good as Jesus, which is certainly debatable, they have to make some sort of effort to be good, don't they? Trying to do the right thing has to count for something.

Religion can't be nothing but mouthing magic formulas.

So you love your grandfather and other family members more that you love Jesus? what did Jesus say about that?

Matthew 10
37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

I don't think that Jesus is worthy of me, if Jesus demands that his devotees display a lack of compassion that would permit their enjoyment of heavenly bliss while their friends and loved ones are being tortured eternally in God's unspeakable basement.

Being heartless isn't a good thing and I think that it's a deeply flawed religious goal.

Each individual is responsible for their own acceptance or rejection of the Message of the Messiah Jesus. If your grandfather did receive the true message of the Messiah Jesus and rejected it (i don't know if he did) then he will have eternity in the lake of fire for doing so.

And that's the reductio-ad-absurdem of "Christian ethics", isn't it?

 

[NMSquirrel]

On the day of judgment God's final act with respect to man will be to save a handful of believers and condemn everyone else to eternal damnation.

isn't that rooted in the catholic system?
i mean i think i have heard it said that there is only a certain amount of souls that can get in heaven and the rest goto hell (i have also heard there is a waiting room also), i believe in the waiting room, but i don't think that heaven has a capacity limit..

it is obvious that you believe in only one type of heaven..

this is how the God of the bible has set everything up.

what if...the bible is wrong? eek

 

[Adstar]

I'm not sure I'd call it a disagreement. That would imply that I believe that Hell is real. I don't. For the most part I was simply exploring a hypothetical.



Actually, I don't believe that I have any misconceptions. For example you assumed that I was presenting a works based model of salvation but I actually understand that the bible teaches that faith and works must go hand in hand. It's kind of implied when someone uses the phrase "become a disciple of Jesus Christ", don't you think? My comments on this point have not been biblically inconsistent, although they might seem to be (by virtue of the fact that I did not drive the whole point about the importance of faith home like you've done) to anyone who is looking for fault. But you know what? None of this is related to the main point I was making or the topic at hand anyway. It was all just narration.



I guess I did contradict myself didn't I? At first I said that God is both merciful and unmerciful but I ended by suggesting that he didn't have any mercy at all. So allow me to correct my error. On the day of judgment God's final act with respect to man will be to save a handful of believers and condemn everyone else to eternal damnation. So, mercy for some but none for most. In other words, conditional mercy. It doesn't matter how you formulate it or even what perspective you take, this is how the God of the bible has set everything up. So to once again relate this back to the question asked by the OP, 'What is God's mercy?", my answer remains the same. I don't see how you can argue that he has any. Could our own criminal justice system be considered merciful if we executed everyone who had committed a crime except for those who adhered to a particular belief system even though those same people had actually committed and continued to commit some of the crimes that others were executed for?

Oops. It appears that I didn't really contradict myself after all.

Your rejection of the message i have given you is no surprise to me. In the future you may come to understand.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Even those who don't believe that your so-called "lake of fire" exists can still critique the ethics of that particular religious myth.

Do you think that particular path to disbelief is wrong? If so, then how would you avoid its conclusion?

I have avoided its conclusion.

So salvation is neatly separated from ethics.

Salvation is independent of ethics. If it was not then no one would be saved. Because all fall short of doing perfect ethics.

Adolph Hitler enjoys eternal bliss in heaven provided only that he calls upon Jesus at his last moment in the Fuhrer Bunker, while non-Christians who devote their lives to loving others and to doing the best that they can are tortured for ever and ever, because they didn't make a magic invocation.

The word magic is an insult when referring to Christianity. Please do not use it.

Here you reveal your judgement that all wrongs should not go unpunished. You show your disproval of mercy. In the end if your personal standard remains like this you will be judged using the same measure and you will have no mercy. Only fair don't you agree.

For me i would be happily amazed if i met hitler in eternity. What an awesome testament to the power and mercy of the atonement of the Messiah Jesus would it be. Sadly i do not think i will be seeing hitler in eternity.

Those who most appreciate the mercy of the Messiah Jesus are the people who have been the greatest transgressors of His Law. Jesus said this about Mary Magdalene who loved Him more that the scribes he was sitting down with. Some day you might understand this and the love of mercy will rise above your love of retribution.

We can't completely separate religion from ethics. Even if human beings can't be as good as Jesus, which is certainly debatable, they have to make some sort of effort to be good, don't they? Trying to do the right thing has to count for something.

If you had read my post you would see that i honour such efforts to do good and resist doing evil. But again that is separate from salvation.

Religion can't be nothing but mouthing magic formulas.

Those who believe Jesus believe Him. People can mouth what they will but i assure you Jesus cannot be fooled by disingenuous mutterings. God knows who is genuine and who is a fake. So there is no need for us to make such determinations.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I just read the rest of you post and just have to reply to your points:



I detect a deep disagreement with the reality of the eternal nature of the Lake of Fire. It seems in the past you tried your best to teach a denial of the reality of it and sought to sideline it as a metaphor. But in the end disagreement leads to rebellion which leads to disbelief. You seem to have gone down the path of many former christians.





A Works based belief in winning ones own salvation is a denial of the effective Atonement of the Messiah Jesus. You belief in this matter no matter how genuinely held is false and will eventually lead to the person being spewed out of belief.

Lack of performance in being like Jesus should cause Christians regret and shame. But belief that failure to live up to the wonderful/perfect example of Jesus is cause for ones eternal condemnation is a slipperyside to oblivion as you reveal in your personal testimony of your falling away from Jesus.





Once agian you assume wrong. We need to Believe it. Our efforts in putting it into practice has no bearing on our eternal destination.





So you love your grandfather and other family members more that you love Jesus? what did Jesus say about that?

Matthew 10
37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Each individual is responsible for their own acceptance or rejection of the Message of the Messiah Jesus. If your grandfather did receive the true message of the Messiah Jesus and rejected it (i don't know if he did) then he will have eternity in the lake of fire for doing so.





Yes it is personal. But it is good that you gave your thoughts clearly, it gives and opportunity for them to be measured against the Word of God and your misconceptions can be revealed and explored.





Not for anyone who rejects the atonement of the Messiah Jesus. But for me there is mercy.





Of course He has mercy, But your disagreement with his will has caused you to be lead down a path where you have falsely come to this conclusion that He has no mercy.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

Hi Jesus lover. The Me he was talking about. What was Jesus's example again? He died on the cross? He taught use to sacrifice? Was that the Example you are talking about ? Hear is a question for you. When do you think the day we end sacrifice should be? The Bible talks about the end of Sacrifice. When should that be ? How much longer we going to make or children sinners ? Is this so we can continue to sacrifice people ? Now don't hang me , I love Jesus the red headed step child of Joe too, but I got a little secret you didn't pick up on when you were reading the bible . Jesus is the man of sin. Yeah when it says the man of sin will be revealed . Yeah it is talking about Jesus . Oh to hard to swallow ah ! Get them bibles out

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Yeah Ancient of days live for ever !! I am all down with that. Me was the ancient of days . Go look it up ! He invented the plow and started the agricultural revolution . He got us kicked out of the garden of Eden and displaced the hunter gatherers. He was recorded in time by many names . Here I will give you a few names : Ti Malice, Melek Taus, Melchizedek, Tas Mikal, Michael the angel of god , Mekigal ,The Me's of heaven and his short name that appears in the bible on almost every page is Me. You say his name all the time for Me lives in you too. The spirit of God you might even say. How bout this for a modern version of the name O.M.G. of course I like the version : My God the best , yet I realize he is every bodies God . I just like the sound of My God. It gives Me a warm fuzzy feeling or just plain M.G. is good too. The O kind of makes it sound feminine, but that is O.k. to , Who Cares anyway ? Do you care?

 

[Yazata]

Salvation is independent of ethics.

I guess that it must be in Christianity's case, if its savior is simultaneously supposed to be an eternal torturer.

If it was not then no one would be saved. Because all fall short of doing perfect ethics.

Why must mankind's only alternatives be perfect ethics and no ethics at all? Why can't even flawed and imperfect efforts to do the right thing have value?

And given the usual premises of Christian theism, God is supposed to be perfect, right? So why doesn't God have ethics? Why does God fall short?

The word magic is an insult when referring to Christianity. Please do not use it.

It could be argued that equating Christianity with magic is an insult to magic. But the word does seem to be apt in this instance. We have the idea that compassion, heart and good intentions mean nothing in religion, that they are deserving only of eternal torture, while even the most heartless and self-interested invocation of Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection justifies eternal heavenly bliss.

Here you reveal your judgement that all wrongs should not go unpunished. You show your disproval of mercy.

Ethics simply has to count for something. A religion without ethics, lacking empathy, heart and compassion, is nothing but a travesty. The end of that descending trajectory is the bizarre and appalling vision of a deity (God and Satan somehow all rolled into one) who boils people eternally, never relenting, never paying the slightest attention to their cries for mercy, merely because they happened to believe the wrong thing here on earth and never called upon Jesus.

In the end if your personal standard remains like this you will be judged using the same measure and you will have no mercy. Only fair don't you agree.

Whatever you say. I'm quite confident about my own path. It's the believe-or-burn version of Christianity that seems morally indefensible to me.

Those who most appreciate the mercy of the Messiah Jesus are the people who have been the greatest transgressors of His Law. Jesus said this about Mary Magdalene who loved Him more that the scribes he was sitting down with. Some day you might understand this and the love of mercy will rise above your love of retribution.

Torture without end is the antithesis of mercy.

 

[Rav]

Torture without end is the antithesis of mercy.

Funny how it took me 5 paragraphs to essentially say the very same thing.

Wonderfully succinct

 

[Adstar]

Hi Jesus lover. The Me he was talking about. What was Jesus's example again? He died on the cross? He taught use to sacrifice? Was that the Example you are talking about ? Hear is a question for you. When do you think the day we end sacrifice should be? The Bible talks about the end of Sacrifice. When should that be ? How much longer we going to make or children sinners ? Is this so we can continue to sacrifice people ? Now don't hang me , I love Jesus the red headed step child of Joe too, but I got a little secret you didn't pick up on when you were reading the bible . Jesus is the man of sin. Yeah when it says the man of sin will be revealed . Yeah it is talking about Jesus . Oh to hard to swallow ah ! Get them bibles out

I believe you have just blasphemed the Holy Spirit. You have called Jesus the man of sin a reference to the lawless one the son of perdition. You are calling the Messiah Emmanuel the anti-christ. Woe to you.

I have no further need to talk with you, you are a walking dead man. You have no hope. You are unforgivable.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

I guess that it must be in Christianity's case, if its savior is simultaneously supposed to be an eternal torturer.

Why must mankind's only alternatives be perfect ethics and no ethics at all? Why can't even flawed and imperfect efforts to do the right thing have value?

I did not say there is no value in trying to do good and seeking to avoid doing evil. There is worldly good that comes from such efforts, But in the eternal scheme of things no such efforts reach perfection and as scripture states all our righteous are as filthy rags compared to the perfection of God. So all fall short and must be forgiven where they have fallen short.

And given the usual premises of Christian theism, God is supposed to be perfect, right? So why doesn't God have ethics? Why does God fall short?

He does not fall short, He is perfect.

It could be argued that equating Christianity with magic is an insult to magic.

I could not care less. Ask someone who dabbles in occultic majiks.

But the word does seem to be apt in this instance. We have the idea that compassion, heart and good intentions mean nothing in religion, that they are deserving only of eternal torture, while even the most heartless and self-interested invocation of Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection justifies eternal heavenly bliss.

Love is never condemned nor is it the reason for eternal damnation. You have misrepresented the Word of God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Rav]

You are unforgivable.

Interesting. Do you believe that Blasphemy is still an unforgivable sin if the person who speaks against God does not know God? Or do you believe, as many other Christian theologians do, that Blasphemy is only an unforgivable sin if someone does know God yet still speaks against him (unforgivable in this case because it's a meaningful and final rejection of God, not simply a result of ignorance)?

 

[wynn]

Torture without end is the antithesis of mercy.

Adstar at least once used the phrase that God is "lovingly condemning" ...

 

[Adstar]

double post

 

[Adstar]

Interesting. Do you believe that Blasphemy is still an unforgivable sin if the person who speaks against God does not know God? Or do you believe, as many other Christian theologians do, that Blasphemy is only an unforgivable sin if someone does know God yet still speaks against him (unforgivable in this case because it's a meaningful and final rejection of God, not simply a result of ignorance)?

He demostrated His knowledge and belief in the Bible by aknolwedging the existance of the Man of Sin and declaring The Messiah Jesus the Man of Sin. In one statement He showed belief in Both Jesus and the Man of Sin.

There is no way he could make such an accusation except that he believed in both and believed in the Bible that revealed Both.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Adstar at least once used the phrase that God is "lovingly condemning" ...

Where did i say that?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wynn]

It was a while back. The search function doesn't render it now; threads before the latest upgrade cannot be searched.
So now it's just my word against yours ...

 

[Lori_7]

regarding torture without end being the antithesis of mercy, the definition of hell is a place that is void of god's love. that's the whole point. hell is the place where those who want nothing to do with god go in satisfaction of that desire.