What is death?

Ya know Bebalina the other thing about you that amazes me besides your use of circular logic is your insistance on denying you said something when its all on record.

First you say that you never called me closed minded I adressed that in my last post so you can just look it up there. But than you deny saying that you have to believe in something to believe in it

you must beleive to get proof
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Sound familiar?

An a little not about how blatently wrong the statement is. Nobody believed in General Realitivity untill experimental evidence backed it up.

At least in my opinion it means the same thing as what you denied saying.

BELIEF AND EVIDENE ARE THE SAME THING. THE ONLY REASON ANYONE SHOULD BELIEVE ANYTHING IS BECAUSE OF THE EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP. SINCE FROM A SCIENTIFIC STANDPOINT PROOF CAN NEVER BE ACHIEVED EVIDENCE IS ALL THERE IS. IF YOUR GOING TO ARGUE A POINT GIVE EVIDENCE BASED ON A NON-CIRCULAR BASIS.
 
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At least I have a sense of humour. And I´m pretty sure the comment about broadening the mind was directed to Cris.

Anyway, belief was the wong choice of words, I got confused by the Mech-post.
What I meant was of course that you must change your worldview to get proof.
Or lets say it like this...do you like the world as it is today? Are you content with what there is ? Are you not curious to find out if there is more?
If you are content and do not want to find out more, then that´s fine, but allow others to do that without your mockery. If you are not content , then what can you do? Change the whole world? That´s impossible, or is it? How can a person change the whole world? By changing how you perceive the world.
Now, I´m not saying that you should totally abandon everything you thought you knew, just give up a little space in your consciousness to the possiblility that there could be more.
Why are you so afraid to do that? It´s just a thought, how much harm can it do? ;)
 
If you just change your world veiw, and put your head inside it, you'll see that I was just agreeing with you Bebelina
 
To all,

There is often a tendency to pre-judge or to have preconceptions about events or activities that have not been directly experienced, and where such evaluations turn out to be significantly inaccurate.

For example how can you realistically experience the emotional effect of a great movie just by reading the synopsis? But worse is when you have unfavorable pre-conceived ideas about the movie based on similar movies of the same genre.

Another good example is how can you effectively evaluate the quality of a new piece of music based on someone’s verbal description?

And again how can you convince a non-swimmer that swimming is not too difficult and that he will float if he lets go of the railings. He is never going to be fully convinced until he tries it, even when he can see that others have no trouble. Full realization of truth only comes from actual experience.

We can theorize all we want about many activities but until the activity is directly experienced then you can never really appreciate or properly understand the activity.

A common argument from theists and other proponents of the supernatural is that you cannot know whether it is true or not unless you attempt to experience it.

My question to everyone and especially non-believers is whether it is fair to dismiss the supernatural when many of us have never attempted to experience the believer’s suggestions?

From my past perspective as a devout evangelical Christian for several years leads me to believe that my perspective is as accurate as I can make it. And I’ll describe more of that experience later.

But for now can anyone who has had similar experiences see anything wrong with my conclusion that a belief in an alleged supernatural is nothing more than a fantasy?

Cris
 
GRO$$,

Death is, in Essence, transformation. It's the bridge to another kind of life, another kind of existance. :)

Love,
Nelson
 
truthseeker,

Death is, in Essence, transformation. It's the bridge to another kind of life, another kind of existance.
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That is an unsupported assertion. Just your emotional hope.

As far as we know death is the termination of existence. There is currently nothing that indicates otherwise.

Cris
 
Cris,

That is an unsupported assertion. Just your emotional hope.
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Nope... That's the conclusion you get when you discover yourself as water in a bottle...

As far as we know death is the termination of existence. There is currently nothing that indicates otherwise.
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NDE people...
Plus philosophy... which have been discussing the issue for centuries... look for the ideas...

Love,
Nelson
 
truthseeker,

NDE people...
Plus philosophy... which have been discussing the issue for centuries... look for the ideas...
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I’ve spent a great deal of time examining NDE claims and have posted here on the subject in the past.

There is no substance to any NDE claim that the phenomena are the result of alleged supernatural interactions. There is however, overwhelming evidence that severe trauma to the brain can and does cause intense hallucinatory effects that the patient cannot distinguish from reality.

There remains absolutely no evidence that a soul or spirit can or does exist and that if it existed that it could survive death.

If you know different then show me the evidence instead of stating conjecture and wishful thinking.

Cris
 
truthseeker,

Death is, in Essence, transformation. It's the bridge to another kind of life, another kind of existance.

That's the conclusion you get when you discover yourself as water in a bottle...
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Fortunately I have never discovered myself transformed to water and held in a bottle, but of course I have not died yet. Are you saying that when someone dies they are converted to water and put in a bottle?

We have no evidence that death is anything other than the end of our existence. If you have evidence that shows otherwise then show it, otherwise anything else you say can only be wishful thinking.


Cris
 
Cris,

There is no substance to any NDE claim that the phenomena are the result of alleged supernatural interactions. There is however, overwhelming evidence that severe trauma to the brain can and does cause intense hallucinatory effects that the patient cannot distinguish from reality.
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The interesting thing is that after they come back, with a "severe trauma in the brain" they actually live more meanfully, they valorize more life and lose the fear of death. Why this happens...? ;)

If you know different then show me the evidence instead of stating conjecture and wishful thinking.
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What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Fortunately I have never discovered myself transformed to water and held in a bottle, but of course I have not died yet. Are you saying that when someone dies they are converted to water and put in a bottle?
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You know very well that allegories and metaphors are widely used in Philosophy to explain what "common" words can't explain all alone.

Compare your spirit to the water, and your body to the bottle. When you die, you (water) get out of your body (bottle). That's doesn't mean that you (the water) cease to exist, it only means that you exist somewhere else...

We have no evidence that death is anything other than the end of our existence. If you have evidence that shows otherwise then show it, otherwise anything else you say can only be wishful thinking.
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There's no EVIDENCE in Philosophy, there's only observation and logic thinking.

Love,
Nelson
 
truthseeker,

The interesting thing is that after they come back, with a "severe trauma in the brain" they actually live more meanfully, they valorize more life and lose the fear of death. Why this happens...?
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And there are many other cases that can be quoted where people have close encounters with death that make them realize the value of life. Many soldiers report changed attitudes when they return from war.

But losing a fear of death because of a vision caused by a hallucination could also be seen as a dangerous thing. Certainly psychiatry uses hallucinogenic drugs to some extent to help with depressive patients.

But other cases of NDE hallucinations have revealed that the experiences have been quite frightening and disturbing.

There really is no value in trying to conclude a supernatural influence from extreme physiological damage or seriously abnormal conditions. While we do not fully understand the human brain completely we do know that it does behave very unpredictably when it is damaged.

Cris
 
There's no EVIDENCE in Philosophy, there's only observation and logic thinking.

So what is more logical? That NDE's are actually a natural part of how the brain functions when it is damaged or when it goes into "survival mode" or that they are visions of the afterlife beamed down from an invisible heaven? Sorry Truthseeker, religion and logic tend not to mix very well, kind of like oil and water.
 
Cris,

If it's damaged enpugh to cause halucinations, why they don't continue after the patient recover?


Xelios,

So what is more logical? That NDE's are actually a natural part of how the brain functions when it is damaged or when it goes into "survival mode" or that they are visions of the afterlife beamed down from an invisible heaven? Sorry Truthseeker, religion and logic tend not to mix very well, kind of like oil and water.
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They "mix" well depending on the way you look to them...
About brain damage, the same as above...

Love,
Nelson
 
truthseeker,

If it's damaged enpugh to cause halucinations, why they don't continue after the patient recover?
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It’s called healing. The body tends to be quite good at that on its own and can sometimes be assisted by medicine and surgery.

Many things cause hallucinations: Recreational drugs are a good example. Typically the synapses that connect the neurons are made to react differently and hence the signals the brain receives are jumbled. However, the brain does its best to interpret the signals and put meaning to them. For example you know that you can draw a 3 dimensional object on a flat piece of paper and your brain will have no problem understanding the representation – the brain has effectively interpreted the image. Incidentally animals with smaller brains, dogs for example, are incapable of performing that activity.

And in the case of recreational drugs when the effect of the drug wears off then the synapses also return to normal and the hallucinations disappear.

When a brain is damaged or starved of vital nutrients and oxygen then the normal functioning of the brain is repressed. The brain even under such extreme conditions will still try to do its job and its fabulous ability to create meaning out of limited data results in hallucinations.

Also, identical results to NDEs have also been perfectly simulated in the laboratory by using hallucinatory drugs.

Hope that helps.
Cris
 
Cris,

And how the brain recover memory, learned skills and this kind of stuff...? Healing too?

Love,
Nelson
 
They "mix" well depending on the way you look to them...


So what logic do you see in religion that I seem to have missed?
 
Originally posted by Bebelina
Oh, you morons...
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actually i know very well that Nuetrino_Albatross is not a moron and neither is mech. you are the moron here...

Originally posted by Bebelina

The circular logic is meant to make you dizzy so that I can attack you while you are unconscious with my amazing ideas, that you willfully will accept under dizzy circumstances, and then wake up like a new person, totally brainwashed! :D
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... and judging by that post i also believe you are also on very large amounts of drugs that you use quite frequently!

-misunderstood poet-
 
truthseeker,

And how the brain recover memory, learned skills and this kind of stuff...? Healing too?
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I don't understand what you are asking. Please re-phrase.

Cris
 
as far as death goes, i don't know much about it. i know what people think happens(discovery&TLC) but i'm not sure wether believe them. the first thought that pops into my mind is 'death oh, you rot in the ground'. it would be interesting to avtually know what happened to your spirit/soul. sometimes they get stuck here and they haunt houses(i've lived in three) and other buildings, i know that much. i'm done babbling now. take care.

lilgothprincess

p.s. you can ignore my post if you want to. i probabley has nothing to do with what youre talking about.
 
I see that you too have no sense of humour whatsoever, but what can one expect from a "gothprincess"? ..:rolleyes:....:D
 
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