what if God could be proven?

[Dywyddyr]

that wouldn't help..also just for the record..(in case you couln't tell)
i have NO confidence in the way government is run nowadays,they keep telling me its for my own good...i do not believe them..

If a law is introduced isn't that indicative that someone thought they'd be a good idea? Or do they all originate from the government alone?

huh? quote both..

so you are argueing what was..not what is.. - i.e. a claim that it isn't the case now.
think you will find that your statement is inaccurate i.e. a claim that religion is as strong now as it ever was.

religion is still man made and as such is susceptible to its own humanity..
you don't have to believe in religion to believe in god..

Except that religion is the source/ distibutor of "knowledge" of god, and the main proponent of his existence.

for the most part i would agree with that statement.cause in my search for the 'think for yourself' type churches they are few and far between..

There are no "think for yourself" churches - a church is part of an organisation, and will have tenets, rules and traditions. And dogmas. Like all organisations. Any "thinking for yourself" is curtailed to one extent or another by ALL organisations.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

I like to expose different points of view, I do not insult or use derogatory words. When I was younger I work for a while in a zoo, I never saw an elephant moving backwards, the animals only move where they can see first. Also you guys are evaluating the today's world like we know it, but in biblical times and before, the world was very different, camel and elephants roamed with the bison or the American Buffalo, in country like Italy and middle Eastern Countries Lions were common sight, Was when the human civilization start getting more complex such animals were extinct, with them the dinos. The word dinosaurs is a modern word, but the animal existed with humans. The Chinese culture and you probably saw that, they have the dragons all over the place, painted, embroidered in their clothes, in Internet images, and in their res truants all over the world, other cultures also claim and Use similar animals, I am sure you saw the temples of the Maya culture, they claimed a "feathered flying snake" known by them as kukulkan, a god for this people,is chiseled in all their temples and looks like a dino.
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-cambodia.htm in this site you are going to see a Stegosaurus once again Chiseled in one of their temple, the picture is very clear. So why then when something like that is described in the bible is doubted? because if we accept the concept then the bible is true and if the bible is true God is true, and that will prove the veracity of the book. And the existence of God

Dude this dose not say that Dinosaurs were around at the same time all it says is they seen a shaped of the dino they very well could have seen the fossil remains of that stago and not the real animal ever think of that.

 

[NMSquirrel]

If a law is introduced isn't that indicative that someone thought they'd be a good idea? Or do they all originate from the government alone?

not all..but do you have confidence that any bill you would vote for states what exactly it is for or do you think there is alterior motives invloved..IOW how many laws have passed that were not what they said they were?how many laws are being passed that the motivation comes down to big corperations making more money for themselves? IE insurance laws..

so you are argueing what was..not what is.. - i.e. a claim that it isn't the case now.
think you will find that your statement is inaccurate i.e. a claim that religion is as strong now as it ever was.

i didn't nesscesarily say that it was AS strong..i was pointing to the assumed myth that it was/is becoming obsolete,

Except that religion is the source/ distibutor of "knowledge" of god, and the main proponent of his existence.

ah..now here is another misconception perpretated(sp?) by religion..
the knowledge is there for anyone to acquire with or without religion,religion is NOT the source,god is..(see thread Religion vs God)

There are no "think for yourself" churches - a church is part of an organisation, and will have tenets, rules and traditions. And dogmas. Like all organisations. Any "thinking for yourself" is curtailed to one extent or another by ALL organisations.

IMO this statement is slightly incorrect, consider how many differant religions are out there,and the history of how those different religions are formed..some get frustrated with the tenets/rules/traditions of their religion so they go out and start a new religion..
maybe you are thinking of the Major players in religion, there are many smaller players that are not as orginized as the big guys,this is where i think god has more room to work..

 

[Dywyddyr]

not all..but do you have confidence that any bill you would vote for states what exactly it is for or do you think there is alterior motives invloved..IOW how many laws have passed that were not what they said they were?how many laws are being passed that the motivation comes down to big corperations making more money for themselves? IE insurance laws..

I'm fairly sure that a large number of laws passed (bills?) have ulterior motives behind them. Doesn't that suggest that MORE people should get involved in the process as a check?

i didn't nesscesarily say that it was AS strong..i was pointing to the assumed myth that it was/is becoming obsolete,

Um, more or less a topic for another thread, but I think I see what you meant.

ah..now here is another misconception perpretated(sp?) by religion..
the knowledge is there for anyone to acquire with or without religion,religion is NOT the source,god is..(see thread Religion vs God)

Another fairly recent development.

IMO this statement is slightly incorrect, consider how many differant religions are out there,and the history of how those different religions are formed..some get frustrated with the tenets/rules/traditions of their religion so they go out and start a new religion..

And in the vast majority of cases the difference is in interpretation only. There are still most of the underlying assumptions (and rituals, just changed slightly).

maybe you are thinking of the Major players in religion, there are many smaller players that are not as orginized as the big guys,this is where i think god has more room to work..

Again a recent development as religion loses its stranglehold on society.

 

[NMSquirrel]

I'm fairly sure that a large number of laws passed (bills?) have ulterior motives behind them. Doesn't that suggest that MORE people should get involved in the process as a check?

ideally,yes..practically..no.
there are ppl way smarter than me writing those laws in such a way to sound like a good thing but in reality,they are set up just to make the rich richer..

[And in the vast majority of cases the difference is in interpretation only. There are still most of the underlying assumptions (and rituals, just changed slightly).
Again a recent development as religion loses its stranglehold on society.

so we are free-er to question the motives of the ppl in charge of religion,to question their ownership of god..
thereby giving control of religion to god not some man behind the pulpit..
now i will agree with that statement about religion losing its stranglehold,it opens it up so that god can work.but that does not mean that there are less believers in the world..

 

[Dywyddyr]

ideally,yes..practically..no.
there are ppl way smarter than me writing those laws in such a way to sound like a good thing but in reality,they are set up just to make the rich richer..

Hmm, "they're smarter than me so I can't do anything about it" sort of giving in before you start, isn't it? I think that could spawn a new thread or two also (you're on a roll tonight!).
Pressure groups?
Raise funding and pay for your own smart people?
Or maybe even, as a start, try this.

so we are free-er to question the motives of the ppl in charge of religion,to question their ownership of god..
thereby giving control of religion to god not some man behind the pulpit..
now i will agree with that statement about religion losing its stranglehold,it opens it up so that god can work.but that does not mean that there are less believers in the world..

But atheism is increasing.
(And, be honest, some of those who start their own religions... would you trust them with a box of matches? )

 

[NMSquirrel]

Hmm, "they're smarter than me so I can't do anything about it" sort of giving in before you start, isn't it? I think that could spawn a new thread or two also (you're on a roll tonight!).
Pressure groups?
Raise funding and pay for your own smart people?
Or maybe even, as a start, try this.

i think ill give up on this argument,mainly cause my focus is emotional..
(the government doesnt care whether i have a roof over my head or not..they just want their money..)

But atheism is increasing.
(And, be honest, some of those who start their own religions... would you trust them with a box of matches? )

I believe atheism is increasing because of the ppl in religion making it about themselves and not god..also the question would become how many of those self proclaimed atheist are just mad at god for one reason or another..(IMO one reason could be cause they didn't get what they asked for..)

my point is in your last statement...

 

[Dywyddyr]

i think ill give up on this argument,mainly cause my focus is emotional..
(the government doesnt care whether i have a roof over my head or not..they just want their money..)

That's a fact.

I believe atheism is increasing because of the ppl in religion making it about themselves and not god..also the question would become how many of those self proclaimed atheist are just mad at god for one reason or another..(IMO one reason could be cause they didn't get what they asked for..)
my point is in your last statement...

But isn't atheism on the increase in countries where the church is pretty much the same as it always was? E.g. in the UK it's still CofE and Catholicism (and whatever else there is :shrug.
I'd suggest that the rise in atheism is increasing education (debatable) and the failure of the church and religion to provide any real answers.

 

[NMSquirrel]

But isn't atheism on the increase in countries where the church is pretty much the same as it always was? E.g. in the UK it's still CofE and Catholicism (and whatever else there is :shrug.

that just confirms my point..

I'd suggest that the rise in atheism is increasing education (debatable) and the failure of the church and religion to provide any real answers.

ah..see.. we are giving the religion the power to give us the answers..we can find the answers for ourselves with a little study of the bible..

 

[Dywyddyr]

that just confirms my point..

Not sure I see how.
These churches had it locked down at one time. I'm sure that the, ah, representation hasn't changed that much.

ah..see.. we are giving the religion the power to give us the answers..we can find the answers for ourselves with a little study of the bible..

Because religion claimed the answers (and also suppressed education and interpretation for a long time).

 

[earth]

we are giving the religion the power to give us the answers..we can find the answers for ourselves with a little study of the bible..

Which answers to which questions?

 

[NMSquirrel]

Which answers to which questions?

how many lick does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop...

can you be any more vague?

 

[earth]

how many lick does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop...

can you be any more vague?

Hey dude, you said we can get answers from the bible coming from God. I ask you what are the questions you're seeking an answer. And lets here the answer too.

If my question is vague, its because your comment was vague in the first place. What answers to what questions?

 

[NMSquirrel]

Hey dude, you said we can get answers from the bible coming from God. I ask you what are the questions you're seeking an answer. And lets here the answer too.

If my question is vague, its because your comment was vague in the first place. What answers to what questions?

i say don't rely soley on the guy behind the pulpit to give you answers, YOU are seeking..look it up in the bible,do your own studying, question everything hold on to what is good..

you ask me what the question is..the question is in your own heart..how can i give you any response to yur question?

its like asking me what is the answer to this question?

 

[earth]

i say don't rely soley on the guy behind the pulpit to give you answers, YOU are seeking..look it up in the bible,do your own studying, question everything hold on to what is good..

I'm asking a simple question.

What are the questions you're asking and what did you decide are the answers?

Your comment of getting answers doesn't revealing the acutal question or the answer.

I take it from your reply "question eveything hold on to what is good" you're looking for a code of conduct?

 

[NMSquirrel]

I take it from your reply "question eveything hold on to what is good" you're looking for a code of conduct?

i cannot answer your other questions as they arent really questions..or at least i am not understanding...

as far as 'question everything hold on to what is good'..

that is straight from the bible..proverbs..

 

[earth]

i cannot answer your other questions as they arent really questions..or at least i am not understanding...

as far as 'question everything hold on to what is good'..

that is straight from the bible..proverbs..

So your main answer from the question how do I behave is found in the bible?

Christians have their code of conduct.
Muslims have their code of conduct.
Monks have their code of conduct.

The U.S. military publishes a manual instructing in the proper personal behavior for military personnel. This is the military's code of conduct.

The laws established by the local, county, state and federal governments instruct in acceptable civilized behavior as a citizen.

How many codes of conduct do you want? And why?

If you're saying because you get answers concerning your own personal code of conduct from a book {bible} God could or can be proven, then I can't agree.

 

[Ladicius]

What if which god could be proven?

 

[scifes]

It's the very first theist error.

Nothing exists except god.
God is perfect.
Only perfection exists (from 2 and 1).

Creating anything can not improve upon the state of things, (i.e everything was already perfect).

A god, being perfect, would not want to lower the state of existing perfection, (a perfect god living in a perfect state would not desirte to create a state that was worse than it currently was. Things being perfect, any act of creation can only make things worse).

A god, being perfect and in a perfect state, wouldn't create anything. There's no point to the exercise.

you mean the first atheist error. god doesn't need us.

but does he have to need us in order to create us?:bugeye: what, he can't do whatever the fudge he wants? he has to have a reason for doing something other than he WANTED TO???
if you didn't need anything, would you do nothing?

humph, error he says..

besides, god doesn't have to have a human reason to create us humans,he can have a godly reason.

 

[Sarkus]

Everything is done for a reason.

If you didn't need anything then you would indeed do nothing.
However, for humans, there is always a need - be it physical, intellectual etc.

A being in a state of perfection would have no such needs - as a need implies an existing lack to that perfection. And thus they would do nothing. They would not want. They would not act. They would do nothing.


Ask yourself: Why did God want to create us?
"Want" implies a need to be filled... so what need was God trying to fill?
What imperfection existed that he needed to fill it with our creation?