Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Very interesting. So sciforums has had a large impact on your life.
This also means that you have recently shifted to being an atheist, since 2003.
What have you learned.....
- Thread starter Simon Anders
- Start date
This also means that you have recently shifted to being an atheist, since 2003.
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M*W: Yes, sciforums did impact my life in a positive way. Yes, atheism came to me after joining sciforums. Sciforums was the only source of information that I had actually read on atheism.
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M*W: I don't think of it so much as being a "belief" that I accepted, but atheism became "clear" to me. There is no proof for gods either. Atheism explains that to me. I don't believe in gods or myths.
Enlightenment is the application of knowledge with insight and wisdom.
I definitely gained knowledge here, like I said, by learning what people believe.
I also, however, sharpened my insight, by gaining a greater understand of WHY people believe.
People tend to dismiss people here as apologists for one side or the other, with little genuine critical thought to offer.
There certainly are apologists here, but there are people of many different faiths who came to their beliefs in many different ways and with very different backgrounds. Getting to know why they believe what they do, how they reconcile their beliefs and where they come from has given me access to an insight I would not have gained without some other manner of getting this widely diverse group together to discuss thier beliefs.
There are few places where one can gather all these people together and discuss their beliefs at length and in introspective detail - even though they sometimes don't even realize they are doing that.
Like I said, I gained a great deal of knowledge by being here, but not just about beliefs (I could have gotten that anywhere, and much of the knowledge I did recieve was not directly from here, but from elsewhere inspired to research it by the people and discussions here).
I learned about people and that is infinitely more significant.
Perhaps most importantly, however, is that that elusive personal system of belief for which I have been searching for since I decided to leave the Catholic religion when I was about 9, finally gelled for me here.
It was a combination of the knowledge and insight I gained here, my own introspection over the past 25 years and an openness to look past people's defenses here that made that come about.
So yes, this place did facilitate my enlightenment.
I definitely gained knowledge here, like I said, by learning what people believe.
I also, however, sharpened my insight, by gaining a greater understand of WHY people believe.
People tend to dismiss people here as apologists for one side or the other, with little genuine critical thought to offer.
There certainly are apologists here, but there are people of many different faiths who came to their beliefs in many different ways and with very different backgrounds. Getting to know why they believe what they do, how they reconcile their beliefs and where they come from has given me access to an insight I would not have gained without some other manner of getting this widely diverse group together to discuss thier beliefs.
There are few places where one can gather all these people together and discuss their beliefs at length and in introspective detail - even though they sometimes don't even realize they are doing that.
Like I said, I gained a great deal of knowledge by being here, but not just about beliefs (I could have gotten that anywhere, and much of the knowledge I did recieve was not directly from here, but from elsewhere inspired to research it by the people and discussions here).
I learned about people and that is infinitely more significant.
Perhaps most importantly, however, is that that elusive personal system of belief for which I have been searching for since I decided to leave the Catholic religion when I was about 9, finally gelled for me here.
It was a combination of the knowledge and insight I gained here, my own introspection over the past 25 years and an openness to look past people's defenses here that made that come about.
So yes, this place did facilitate my enlightenment.
I don't know, M*W. I've read lots of your posts, and you're constantly trying to convince others of your "beliefs" that there is no god or gods. Why do you do that ....if not to do the very thing that you claim to hate about organized religions ....which is to "force or push" their beliefs onto others?
See what I mean? You're essentially no different to those you claim to dislike. And you're using their tactics to do it.
Baron Max
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Much as I have some sympathy with your discussion here, it perhaps belongs on some other thread.
What about yourself? What have you learned from your participation in the Religion Forum. You've had a mere 179 posts here, but nevertheless this is quite a bit of typing and no doubt reading of the posts of others. Has it been worth it? What have you learned? If learning is not your goal, what is you goal for partipating and have you achieved it?
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Introspection is not mentioned so much. I think I will start a thread in Philosophy on this topic.
Did you really learn about people, or just about what people say or claim? There is a major difference, ya' know.
Not wanting to rerail the thread, but an example that comes readily to mind is what people "claim" about being compassionate for the plight of others. Practically everyone here makes that claim, and I daresay that almost everyone anywhere would agree, yet ....there is still dire poverty and hunger in the world. How can that be if "everyone" claims to be compassionate and empathetic?
If everyone who made that claim gave one lousy dollar per day, there'd be no hunger or poverty in all of the world. So, ....are all those fuckin' people lying?
No, I don't think you can learn about people on a site like this ....you learn only what they wish to project.
Baron Max
It's only reinforced what I already knew/know about humans in general ....that they lie far more than they tell the truth! ...that they make claims about they're own compassion, beliefs and generosity, while degrading others for theirs.
Baron Max
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
I actually agree with you to a great extent. The way you worded it makes it sound like you know that the way they present themselves is not who they 'really' are. That far I cannot go. But I do think one should be careful not to confuse PR with reality.
But to keep on topic....
Is this something you learned here?
You also have to keep in mind that when I first got here, this place was less of a battleground and more of a discussion center.
It was more like what Hammie and I are trying to accomplish with this: http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=88389
It was more like what Hammie and I are trying to accomplish with this: http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=88389
There is certainly a difference.
With many people it is not too hard to see through their projections.
In fact, their projections tell a lot about them.
No, as I said this place, this forum, just reinforced what I'd learned after dealing with humans for over 65 years of life. Basically, if a person says it or types in onto the screen, the chances are better than average that it's a fuckin' lie!
Baron Max
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
I''ll keep that in mind, however paranoid it makes me about your posts.
That said, it sounds now like you are set in your beliefs. They've been building up for 65 years. What are you participating in the Religion Forum for? What do you hope to get out of it?
I actually don't much think of the forums as distinct message forums ...I just see something that interests me, so I post something that comes to mind.
Get out of it? Well, fun, of course. I enjoy reading a lot of the lies and half-truths that people post ...it's sorta' like reading fairy-fuckin'-tales. Hell, everyone likes reading fairy-fuckin'-tales, don't they?
Baron Max
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
I have learned a few things, mostly from Prince James...but generally, almost all learning is merely intellectually interesting.
If it is transformational its only in the sense of directions...like buying a map. A map can give directions but it cant make the journey for you.
I might participate because its interesting, or funny, or I could even be helpful...who knows?
Most spiritual traditions insist that a truly transformational process involves the body. They say we are not the body, but the body is something of ourselves.
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M*W: Atheism cannot be forced on anyone. I have my beliefs. We all have our own beliefs. That's nothing new. I just don't believe in gods any more than I believe in ancient myths.
Personally, I don't care what others believe. They have their reasons for believing what they want to believe, and I don't care if their beliefs disagree with mine.
Also, I don't think it's as much about disliking others for not believing what I believe, but it's about how they came to beleive what they believe... the journey of their beliefs.
As for me, I'd rather not spend my time with people who believe in gods, just as they wouldn't want to spend their time with me. That kind of association will go nowhere. The only good thing about it is perhaps one could learn what drives us to believe what we believe. In that, our stories are all probably different.
You asked why I try to convince others that there are no gods? Because that is my belief and sciforums provides a medium for expressing our beliefs. You don't have to believe anything anyone else says. It's just a forum; an outlet; a vent for what we believe to be the truth.
The difference, M*W, is that you're far more likely to go on the attack against the beliefs of others if they believe in god or gods. Discuss, yes, but you're usually attacking. And that ain't nice ..even for a freakin' athiest.
Baron Max
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M*W: I came here just like everyone else did, searching for something or just curious about something else. I learned a lot by reading, listening, thinking, pondering, debating, refuting, denying and coming to conclusions that were unlike my own. Sciforums has played a major role in my understanding of the efficacy of religions and how they affect human beings. I had always had this curiousity, but sciforums put it all togteher for me.
In the greater scheme of things, I don't care what you or someone else believes. You're entitled to your own beliefs as am I. The problem I have is that everybody else came to sciforums just like I did, but many, many of them hold on still to their false and outdated beliefs even though the truth is right there in their bloody faces. That's where my animosity comes from. The truth has been presented equally to all of us on sciforums. I just don't understand how some die-hards can still believe in myths. Ergo, my lack of patience with some.
I also take this personally, especially when I have researched, written, explained, commented and attempted to teach others with knowlege I have legitimately found. I can reconcile the other's continued lack of enlightenment comes from their inability to let go of their earlier indoctination of false myths. Why is it so hard for some people to understand there is more than one way to believe, even if it means to not believe. I am curious about those who continue to come here when they have nothing new to offer the rest of us, but I am especially disallusioned about those who come here to prove their gods are real.