i asserted no such thing. i said that institutions are corrupt because people are corrupt. that has nothing to do with thwarting god.
What do you wish religious people would teach you?
- Thread starter wynn
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i asserted no such thing. i said that institutions are corrupt because people are corrupt. that has nothing to do with thwarting god.
Of course it does. You talk about the Spirit managing to come through perfectly in the Bible - which on the surface is a project involving creation individuals, groups and institutions. You are certain Spirit could not be thwarted here and it is pefect. However you are also certain that Spirit does not come through perfectly anywhere else in any other human project or institution.
How do you know this?
because the spirit doesn't come through the bible, it comes through me. it's used all kinds of things to teach me, primarily experience, but the bible too, and other works. i'm confident in that, and that things will turn out just the way they're supposed to, and that everything is in it's place, right where it belongs.
one time god told me "there is no time here". do you see how if time is not a constraint for god, that man would not stand a chance in thwarting him?
Then why did you say...
Further....
If the Spirit can come through you, then it can come through elsewhere. If the Spirit can come through a complicated process involving lots of people - the Bible which you say was written by spirit - then it can come through elsewhere. So your judgment of all institutions is untenable.
It's you who see God being thwarted in all institutions, not me.
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because i can relate a large part of it to my life.
no i do not. i know that even though the flesh is corrupt, and therefore all men are corrupt, and therefore institutions are corrupt, the spirit is still not thwarted by this.
i'm not a chess player, so correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a big part of being a good chess player being able to anticipate your opponent's moves? if you could foresee all of your opponent's moves, wouldn't you most definitely win the game?
You say Spirit wrote it. So Spirit managed to arrive uncorrupted through something many, many people, including institutions created. And yet you say all institutions are corrupted.
You also say 'a large part of it'. What parts can you not relate to? Were these not written by Spirit?
Then some institutions, just like the Bible can be NOT corrupt. If Spirit can work through all those people and committees and institutions and produce something not corrupt, it can do it elsewhere, right? Yet you deny it can.
You simply do not understand. I am not saying God cannot do this or that.
You are. I just keep pointing this out to you.
You say Spirit does not come through the Bible.
after saying
Spirit wrote the Bible.
And you cannot even admit you are contradicting yourself.
this really isn't that complicated doreen.
men wrote the bible. the spirit comes through men. just because the spirit manifests through the things of this world, which are corrupt, doesn't mean that the spirit is corrupt, nor does it mean that this corruption thwarts the will of the spirit. the spirit takes into account (being able to see our moves before we make them) our corruption, and makes adjustments accordingly at any time, because it is not under the constraint of time as we are. certainly you can understand this.
It may not be complicated, but you are communicating in a confusing fashion, at the very least.this really isn't that complicated doreen.
Again, you say the Spirit wrote the Bible
and
The Spirit did not come through the Bible.
Let's start there and show me how these two things make simple sense together..
lol...well first you're going to have to stop misquoting me.
i said that man wrote the bible, and that spirit comes through man.
lol...well first you're going to have to stop misquoting me.
i said that man wrote the bible, and that spirit comes through man.
Well, no, you said...
but you also said....
Now you can LOL all you want, but I am working directly with YOUR quotes.
ok, i apologize. let's break it down...
several years ago i actually had the privilege of channeling a message from the holy spirit in writing. now, i, being a very flawed and corrupt human being, picked up a pen and put it to paper per the instruction of the spirit. the spirit had told me to write someone (who i did not know) a letter, and i thought that was a silly request, and i was embarrassed by the thought of doing it, so i didn't do it. subsequently, the spirit asked me to send this person flowers (they were sick). so i got some flowers, and sat down to write something like "get well soon" and 7 paragraphs of really beautiful poetry came out of me. i was entirely aware that while i did hold the pen to the paper, that i was not the author of that poetry.
now, that poetry didn't mean much to me, except for my fascination in regards to the fact that i didn't write it. but the message contained in it did mean a lot to the person to whom it was addressed. it actually helped them quite a bit.
so, because it's happened to me, i have absolutely no problem believing that the spirit authored the message in the bible, through men, who of course, are corrupt with sin, and that sin in no way corrupts or thwarts the message that the spirit wishes to convey.
now in regards to the lack of time as a constraint, certainly you can understand how, if the spirit can foresee our corruption, the spirit can make allowances for that, and still accomplish it's purpose.
also, in regards to what i said about the bible being the story of my life thanks to the spirit who wrote it, i was primarily referring to this...
"Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures." which is scripture from the gospel of luke.
the spirit is not only the author (through men), but also the interpreter. the spirit is referred to as the counselor. and i have had the spirit interact with me, counsel me, and teach me by being an active part of my every day life, inside me. helping me sort out my personal life and teaching me based on my own personal experience. it was the spirit who encouraged me to forgive my father and experience the effects of forgiveness inside of me, and in my life. that is one of the main teachings of jesus. the spirit has asked me to do things that has made my flesh very uncomfortable, and i've walked in faith and testified, while everyone around me was looking at me like i was insane. it was isolating and frustrating, and i felt the sting of my flesh being crucified. and all of that happened with my bible collecting dust on a shelf. but when i do open the book and read it, i read about people who have been through these same types of experiences because of the spirit interacting with them, just like it did with me. and i see that what the bible teaches makes sense to me, because of what the spirit has taught me in regards to my personal life and experience. so when i say that the bible is the story of my life i don't mean that i read it and try my best to understand it and follow it. i mean that when i read it i'm like, "i've experienced that. i've felt like that. i understand what this means because of what the spirit taught me through personal experience and counsel in regards to my experience".
i just wanted to clarify, because i know that unless you've experienced this yourself, it would be impossible to understand, and it probably wouldn't be something that would occur to you.
"Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures." which is scripture from the gospel of luke.
the spirit is not only the author (through men), but also the interpreter. the spirit is referred to as the counselor. and i have had the spirit interact with me, counsel me, and teach me by being an active part of my every day life, inside me. helping me sort out my personal life and teaching me based on my own personal experience. it was the spirit who encouraged me to forgive my father and experience the effects of forgiveness inside of me, and in my life. that is one of the main teachings of jesus. the spirit has asked me to do things that has made my flesh very uncomfortable, and i've walked in faith and testified, while everyone around me was looking at me like i was insane. it was isolating and frustrating, and i felt the sting of my flesh being crucified. and all of that happened with my bible collecting dust on a shelf. but when i do open the book and read it, i read about people who have been through these same types of experiences because of the spirit interacting with them, just like it did with me. and i see that what the bible teaches makes sense to me, because of what the spirit has taught me in regards to my personal life and experience. so when i say that the bible is the story of my life i don't mean that i read it and try my best to understand it and follow it. i mean that when i read it i'm like, "i've experienced that. i've felt like that. i understand what this means because of what the spirit taught me through personal experience and counsel in regards to my experience".
i just wanted to clarify, because i know that unless you've experienced this yourself, it would be impossible to understand, and it probably wouldn't be something that would occur to you.