what do women get out of islam?

Muslim men treat me better than non-Muslim men. :D
I'm sure.
"Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."​

"
Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Women.Islam

PS Are you married? If not, why not?
 
I'm sure.
"Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."​

"
Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Women.Islam

PS Are you married? If not, why not?

Uh I could show even better quotes from the Bible and not ones "translated" for effect either.

And my marital status is really not the issue here, my experience is.:p
 
SAM
How do you define homosexuals in Islamic view?
Where marriage is regulated for 'pairs', men and women, how can they get married (a covenant between pair to be 'halal' for having sexual intercourse) as ruled by Islamic law? If they do 'sexual intercourse' (one sided only though), Is it classified as 'zina' or it isn't?
 
SAM
How do you define homosexuals in Islamic view?
Where marriage is regulated for 'pairs', men and women, how can they get married (a covenant between pair to be 'halal' for having sexual intercourse) as ruled by Islamic law? If they do 'sexual intercourse' (one sided only though), Is it classified as 'zina' or it isn't?

Does it say they cannot be married? Its not included in the verse on marriage.:shrug:

[4:23] Prohibited for you (in marriage) are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, the sisters of your fathers, the sisters of your mothers, the daughters of your brother, the daughters of your sister, your nursing mothers, the girls who nursed from the same woman as you, the mothers of your wives, the daughters of your wives with whom you .have consummated the marriage - if the marriage has not .been consummated, you may marry the daughter. Also prohibited for you are the women who were married to your genetic sons. Also, you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time - but do not break up existing marriages. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[4:24] Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.* These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

If you notice, forbidden relations are mainly to avoid consanguinity. Anyway marriage in Islam is a mutual contract, not a sacred bond.

I think Islam is a religion for all; homosexuality has never been negatively referred to and there is no prohibition against specific homosexual acts per se (i.e. Forbidden to you is having sex with your own gender, etc). Nor is there any command against same sex marriage. I think we should assume that nature is a part of creation and not make laws that don't exist.
 
Last edited:
S.C.A.M, what does abomination mean?

I think Islam is a religion for all; homosexuality has never been negatively referred to and there is no prohibition against specific homosexual acts per se (i.e. Forbidden to you is having sex with your own gender, etc). Nor is there any command against same sex marriage. I think we should assume that nature is a part of creation and not make laws that don't exist.

I don't care either way what you believe, I am just trying to figure out where you get this stuff from.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla1.htm

http://www.geocities.com/mikailtariq/homo.htm
 
I'm sure.
"Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."​

"
Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Women.Islam

The translations you provided are horrid and mistranslated completely. Please provide the surat (chapter) and ayat (verse) and I will give you a proper translation.
 
Sam, as far as the traditional Islamic view. I believe this verse offers a better example of the abhorrence of Homosexuality in Islam.

Surat An-Naml

[27.54] And (We sent) Lut, when he said to his people: What! do you commit indecency while you see?
[27.55] What! do you indeed approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly.

Surat Al-Araaf

7:80. We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

81. "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

Also I am familiar that the vast majority (if not all) of Islamic scholars have deemed homosexuality as haram, not permissible.
 
Sam, as far as the traditional Islamic view. I believe this verse offers a better example of the abhorrence of Homosexuality in Islam.

Surat An-Naml

[27.54] And (We sent) Lut, when he said to his people: What! do you commit indecency while you see?
[27.55] What! do you indeed approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly.

Surat Al-Araaf

7:80. We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

81. "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

Also I am familiar that the vast majority (if not all) of Islamic scholars have deemed homosexuality as haram, not permissible.

The story of Lut is not about homosexuality but it has become such through Biblical scholars. Anyway, if it was haram, it would be clearly said so in the verses on marriage. Why miss out something so obvious (especially since pederasty was so common among Arabs?)
 
The story of Lut is not about homosexuality but it has become such through Biblical scholars. Anyway, if it was haram, it would be clearly said so in the verses on marriage.

I guess this is just our difference of opinion. Well anyway, I hope all is well with you.
 
Sam, as far as the traditional Islamic view. I believe this verse offers a better example of the abhorrence of Homosexuality in Islam.

Surat An-Naml

[27.54] And (We sent) Lut, when he said to his people: What! do you commit indecency while you see?
[27.55] What! do you indeed approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly.

Surat Al-Araaf

7:80. We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

81. "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

Also I am familiar that the vast majority (if not all) of Islamic scholars have deemed homosexuality as haram, not permissible.

The fact that Mohammed said these things does not necessarily imply that you should judge these people.
Verses in the Q´ran and Bible have always been used to excuse random acts of violence, like that of the adulterous woman and Jesus...
If you would bring a man to Mohammed who was caught in the act of homosexuality, Mohammed would probably say something like: “Who the fuck are you to judge this man”? Being that the proper translation…
 
The fact that Mohammed said these things does not necessarily imply that you should judge these people.
Verses in the Q´ran and Bible have always been used to excuse random acts of violence, like that of the adulterous woman and Jesus...
If you would bring a man to Mohammed who was caught in the act of homosexuality, Mohammed would probably say something like: “Who the fuck are you to judge this man”? Being that the proper translation…

Absolutely, he always said that one hour of contemplation was worth seventy years of prayer.:)
 
Most people who disagree with the act of homosexuality believe it to be unnatural, though Sam may disagree with me (she has a right to do that), I will hold fast to my belief that this is forbidden as all the sahabah, scholars, imams, teachers, and sufis whose works I have studied under have all explained it to me this way using the science of hadith. To me, the Quran is a book of great knowledge given from Allah swt (God Almighty), and to offer the best commentary on this Holy book is the life of the Prophet (the seerat in the form of hadith and the writings of the taba'een).
 
Most people who disagree with the act of homosexuality believe it to be unnatural, though Sam may disagree with me (she has a right to do that), I will hold fast to my belief that this is forbidden as all the sahabah, scholars, imams, teachers, and sufis whose works I have studied under have all explained it to me this way using the science of hadith. To me, the Quran is a book of great knowledge given from Allah swt (God Almighty), and to offer the best commentary on this Holy book is the life of the Prophet (the seerat in the form of hadith and the writings of the taba'een).

It doesn’t matter the source, you first need to apply "common sense" to the first sentence of the paragraph dude. And it is not from "common sense" that you judge a fellow human with the standards set by others. It is not "common sense" that prosecutes people, these are just politics of "common men". I hold no good feelings for politics...

If "God" tells you to kill a child, you still have the common sense to refuse such an act, and you will become bigger, because then you become the living word of the living God; not a dead God scrambled into a "holy book". How else does the living God speaks to people but by living people´s mouths? Just as he did with Jesus and Mohammed.
 
Uh I could show even better quotes from the Bible and not ones "translated" for effect either.
Maybe, but the status of women in Christian nations verses in Muslim nations argues that Christians must not take those bits as seriously as Muslims do.
And my marital status is really not the issue here, my experience is.:p
I'd say it is. If Muslim men are so great, why aren't you married to one? Regarding your experience, well, I'd hate to embarass Bells in front of her kids again, so let's not go into that.
 
Maybe, but the status of women in Christian nations verses in Muslim nations argues that Christians must not take those bits as seriously as Muslims do.
I'd say it is. If Muslim men are so great, why aren't you married to one? Regarding your experience, well, I'd hate to embarass Bells in front of her kids again, so let's not go into that.

Heh I'm NOT discussing my marriage no matter what. :p

But in my experience, Muslim men have always treated me as an equal, rather than someone to be catered to or someone to be tolerated. If you simply look at my interactions with any Muslim men even on this forum, you'll see what I mean. Plus for some reason, they tend to be more understanding. :)
 
Even back in the days when all men were able to/practiced polygamy, no portion of the population was affected by a lack of a certain gender. Nowadays, only few men can afford it, so it has virtually zero affect on making an uneven population amongst the genders.
This is not an argument on why it is good for women that men should practice polygamy.
Your argument seems to stand that – well many men couldn’t practice polygamy ergo it’s good.
??
You do agree that if it were practiced by every men there’d soon be too few women?
If anything to me you are arguing against polygamy. At least by the average Muslim man. Taking your point of view it seems that only the rich and the powerful should have many wives.

Is this correct?

Purpose of marriage is to have kids. One man for four women can have four kids. One woman with four men cannot get them all to have children. This is why.
Firstly I disagree that the purpose of marriage is to have kids. Using this argument a barren man or woman should never marry. Is this your position?

The purpose of marriage in my mind is to spend the rest of your life with the one person you love.

But, if it is just to have kids, and using your first argument that most Muslim men couldn’t afford to have more than one wife. Why limit it to 4 – Hell, go for 1000 women and have sex with two or three each day. Really get the kids pumping out there.

Why four wives? Well then, why not? Four is a pretty sturdy number.
In short – because a book told me so.

Oh come on, just admit it – there is no rational reason for 4.

I have posted the whole argument, and if you don't find it convincing, then too bad. I did my part. I'm still waiting for you to dissect it and say what's wrong. I already told you that all of his wives had a huge impact socially, morally, and legislatively.
The Communist were able to eliminate slavery and give women equality under the law in a shorter tome period and did so without taking a harem of women. One would logically conclude that Mohammad, having God on side, could have done at least as good?

Thus in reality we go back to your main reason for marriage - which is to have kids. This stuff about having a huge impact socially, morally, and legislatively is a red herring. Women can have a huge impact socially, morally, and legislatively without being married.
On average, a healthy man/woman 1400 years ago in Arabia would be happy to reach sixty years of living. Nowadays, we're up to 75 years for healthy men/women (80+ in countries like Japan). If you think a woman marrying at the age of 22 (will have finished an average college by then), then there is a 13 year difference in her and Aisha. However, on average, Aisha is to die 16 years earlier than today's woman. If you die 'X' years earlier, then it's only reasonable (and unbelievably common in those days) to marry 'X' years earlier.

Also, marriages 1400 years ago often had a primary political purpose. You could marry to strengthen bonds with the woman's father, you know, things of that sort.

Finally, Muhammad had his share of critics 1400 years ago. They criticized Muhamad's beliefs/actions on a numerous amount of things. However, they never criticized him for marrying Aisha. It was considered perfectly normal.
It may have been normal in Arabia but then again so was polytheism. If Mohammad wanted to set a good precedent he could have adopted her and cared for her as his granddaughter. He could have arranged for her to marry a good man that was closer to her age. I fail to see how marrying her over adopting her promoted female dignity and equality.

How does it?
 
I posted this second because it seemed to stand alone.


I think homosexuality is wrong because they: a) cannot reproduce; b) have a very high rate for spreading deadly STDs and AIDS; c) hurt and embarrass their family members with their decisions. I think polygamy is perfectly okay because it harms nobody. Tell me, what is wrong with polygamy if all the men and women agree?
Again using this line of reasoning polygamy with 20, 100, 1000 or more women is fine then if “all the men and women agree?” If reproduction is name of the game - game on!

:)

I will tell you one reason why IMHO polygamy is not good for women.

When a man can take many women as his many wives and is raised with a mindset that women and marriage are mainly for reproduction and he lives in a society where women are traded to men to form alliances - then guess what, those societies treat women unequally because the husbands do not tend to form a single loving union with their one wife – instead many men tend to see their many wives as a means to create a large clan. Because they practice polygamy some of their many women are taken simply as a means to form good connections with another family. History will show that these clannish societies with massive extended tribal families do not treat women equally with men.

That’s simply a fact of history.

In societies where a man has only one wife, there is a slightly greater change that in general men will choose their one and only wife as one that they love. Because he only has one wife there is a greater chance that they can form a union where the husband and wife feel as they are one and are equal with one another. This means that in these societies where monogamy is practiced there is a greater chance of the husband desiring she be his legal equal as well.

Guess what, in societies were monogamy is the norm - women have historically been granted more equality with men.


Does this make sense?
Do people agree with me?

Michael
 
Just a general observation.

Is it just me or does it seem the in the three "Abrahamic" monotheisms (I can't say for Bahai') women are not allowed to lead the men during the religous services? Why? Doesn't this restriction imply there is something inherently inferior with women compared with men? As if women are not smart or enlightened enough to provide a valuable religous service?

Michael
 
Back
Top