What do atheists think that "to know God" means?

No explanation is required, on the contrary, in order to establish that it is a consequence of atheism, you need to show two things:
1) that no theist can believe all the things listed
2) at least one atheist can believe all the things.
I don't think the universe is big enough to house the size of the word salad required if you want to start talking about how a theist can incorporate all those things into their world view

Personally, I doubt very much than any mentally healthy person can believe that everyone and everything in the universe is unpredictable and irregular, the counter-examples are too many and obvious.

they would probably say that you simply aren't looking at the broader picture
 
Who would? What do you suppose they could mean by that? How would that constitute a response?
Its not my story but it goes something like this - the universe is a big place so chaos has enough opportunities to accidentally provide the current window of stability through a literal infinite number opportunities to get it right.

Stick around with that q long enough and I am sure you will get the unabridged version from the respective parties
 
lightgigantic

Try to really, seriously, believe that the universe, and everyone and everything in it, is chaotic, unpredictable, irregular, irrational,

spidergoat: I already do! What's your problem with reality?

feel free to explain how this world view (typified but certainly not exclusive to the atheism spidergoat presents) is not a consequence of atheism.

I don't believe any of those things are true. The Universe may be a violent, hostile place in some areas, but even then it is following the laws that all the rest of the places(less violent, less hostile places like Earth)in the Universe do, it is the opposite of unpredictable, it is highly regular and a rational mind can understand it, so it is not irrational. And most atheists educated about how the Universe acts will agree with me about those ideas, they are not true. In fact they represent a total misunderstanding of what science actually demonstrates about the Universe.

See where assuming you can tell the worldview of an atheist knowing only that he is an atheist gets you? I certainly can't assume I know the world view of a theist about whom that is all I know. That is why we keep insisting that nothing important can be discussed until a theist defines what they mean by "knowing god".

People can be a bit unpredictable, chaotic, irrational and some are quite irregular(fiber helps)but that is true whether a god exists or not.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Try to really, seriously, believe that the universe, and everyone and everything in it, is chaotic, unpredictable, irregular, irrational, that there is no one in charge, and that everyone and everything is simply subject, to aging, illness and death, and that this is all there is to existence.
Try to really, seriously believe that.
I find it ironic that, of all people, wynn - who started the 'What do atheists think it means to "know God"' thread - is speculating on how atheists think.

cuz he's got it wrong.

If I may for a moment be so bold as to presume to know what other people think:
Most non-believers take heart in the fact that the universe is rational (follows knowable laws, not the whim of some inscrutable spirit). That chaos is mathematically describable and beautiful. That unpredictable means we are masters of our own destiny. That the universe arises from a very very few fundamental principles, and the "miracle" of the universe's glory is that all this complexity we see is an emergent result of those simple principles.
 
I find it ironic that, of all people, wynn - who started the 'What do atheists think it means to "know God"' thread - is speculating on how atheists think.

cuz he's got it wrong.

If I may for a moment be so bold as to presume to know what other people think:
Most non-believers take heart in the fact that the universe is rational (follows knowable laws, not the whim of some inscrutable spirit). That chaos is mathematically describable and beautiful. That unpredictable means we are masters of our own destiny. That the universe arises from a very very few fundamental principles, and the "miracle" of the universe's glory is that all this complexity we see is an emergent result of those simple principles.

Agreed. On target.
 
@Dave --

Well we can't very well expect Wynn to understand that, not so long as she's firm in her decision to base her entire understanding of atheism and materialism on her own prejudices.
 
lightgigantic:

wynn said:
Try to really, seriously, believe that the universe, and everyone and everything in it, is chaotic, unpredictable, irregular, irrational, that there is no one in charge, and that everyone and everything is simply subject, to aging, illness and death, and that this is all there is to existence.
Try to really, seriously believe that.

lightgigantic said:
feel free to explain how this world view ... is not a consequence of atheism.

Atheism is the position that god(s) do not exist. It says nothing more about the universe than that.

In particular, it does not follow that the universe must be chaotic, unpredictable and so on. In fact, the fact that science works so well shows us exactly the opposite, God or no God.

Also, to flip things around, the theistic conclusion that there is a God in no way mandates that the universe must be ordered, purposeful etc. God himself may be chaotic, arbitrary, unpredicable and all those other nasty things that wynn doesn't like.
 
lightgigantic:





Atheism is the position that god(s) do not exist. It says nothing more about the universe than that.
given that there are a truck load of other things that saying there is a god says about the universe, the same cargo is dumped (in the antithesis) for persons who say otherwise
In particular, it does not follow that the universe must be chaotic, unpredictable and so on. In fact, the fact that science works so well shows us exactly the opposite, God or no God.
to which the common retort is that these schemata for predictability are simply small windows of order in the grand vista of chaos.

The fact that science degenerates more thickly into hearsay when you start looking at 1 x 10 15 years and further confirms this


Also, to flip things around, the theistic conclusion that there is a God in no way mandates that the universe must be ordered, purposeful etc. God himself may be chaotic, arbitrary, unpredicable and all those other nasty things that wynn doesn't like.
"that there is no one in charge, and that everyone and everything is simply subject, to aging, illness and death, and that this is all there is to existence." doesn't fit in with your "etc" .. or for that matter even chaotic, arbitrary and unpredictable (no more than a personality can be chaotic, arbitrary and unpredictable ... since the essential chaotic, arbitrary and unpredictable element of our personality is that it will shortly cease to exist)
 
lightgigantic:

given that there are a truck load of other things that saying there is a god says about the universe, the same cargo is dumped (in the antithesis) for persons who say otherwise

But there's nothing there about the necessity of predictability and so on, which is what I was talking about.

to which the common retort is that these schemata for predictability are simply small windows of order in the grand vista of chaos.

Whose retort is this? And where is the evidence?

The fact that science degenerates more thickly into hearsay when you start looking at 1 x 10 15 years and further confirms this

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Please explain.

"that there is no one in charge, and that everyone and everything is simply subject, to aging, illness and death, and that this is all there is to existence." doesn't fit in with your "etc" .. or for that matter even chaotic, arbitrary and unpredictable (no more than a personality can be chaotic, arbitrary and unpredictable ... since the essential chaotic, arbitrary and unpredictable element of our personality is that it will shortly cease to exist)

It sounds like you're trying to make some kind of point, but unfortunately I can't work out what it is. Could you break it down for me, please?
 
do you also find it ironic that an atheist agreed to the point of declaring the said view as "reality"?
There is such a thing as momentarily granting a point for the sake of argument.

But, to what specifically do you refer? You've paraphrased, so I can't search for a phrase that matches that.
 
Yazata said:
there are tremendous implications in rejecting or ignoring some of the varieties of God-belief

DaveC426913 said:

Yazata said:
I posted a whole set of them in my last reply to Grumpy a few posts above. Basically a greatly reduced likelihood of imagining the world in the sorts of ways that theistic believers often do. Atheists are far less likely to conceive of the world in ways that make explicit reference to God, God's earthly purposes, God's desires, to history being some kind of religious drama with a final divine consummation, to divine judgement, and so on.

That is circular.

How is it circular?

And not a little bit baffling in its naivete.

It's like saying 'some of the tragic consequences of not believing in ghosts are that you can't meaningfully participate in seances or watch GhostHunters with a sense of awe'.

(In case I wasn't clear: seances and GhostHunters are as silly as ghosts.)

It's like saying 'some of the tragic consequences of not believing in perpetual motion machines are that you can't spend your natural life trying and failing to add just ooooooone more gear to get that extra erg of work out of it'.

Whether you or I believe that the implications are silly doesn't change the fundamental point that there can be and often are implications for the rest of one's worldview when we don't believe in something.

That applies to many of the varieties of God-belief especially well. The implications of lack of belief in whatever variety of God it is will ripple outwards, shaping the contours of many other beliefs in our worldview.

It's not unlike lacking any knowledge of or belief in chemistry. If that were the case, many other areas of scientific belief would inevitably look very different too, from geology to astrophysics.

The point here isn't whether chemistry or God-belief are stoutly true or whether they are ridiculously silly. The point is simply that concepts derived from chemistry and god-belief are likely to turn up in many other aspects of how people conceive of their world. Changing or deleting them will have broad implications.

That's why I think that it's misleading and a little disingenuous for atheists to continually attack what they call 'theistic worldviews', while insisting that they have no atheistic worldviews of their own, because atheism is simply lack of belief and lack of belief can't contribute to shaping worldviews. That's just false.
 
It's not unlike lacking any knowledge of or belief in chemistry.

The difference being that a person lacking knowledge(or belief) in chemistry may wind up killing themselves and others whereas there is literally no harm that can come from a neighbor who lacks a belief in god which wouldn't have come anyway.
 
How is it circular?
You seem to be suggesting that not believing in God means you miss out on lots of other great things that come from God. If one doesn't believe something exists, one necessarily believes that (all things that are supposedly a consequence of that thing) don't exist either.

That applies to many of the varieties of God-belief especially well. The implications of lack of belief in whatever variety of God it is will ripple outwards, shaping the contours of many other beliefs in our worldview.
...
Changing or deleting them will have broad implications.
No. It's not that 'God was here and he disappeared, causing changes', it's that 'God was never here, thus nothing has changed'.
Nice try though.

...The point is simply that concepts derived from ... god-belief are likely to turn up in many other aspects of how people conceive of their world.
No they aren't. The universe works perfectly fine without subscribing to magic.

The same thing cannot be said about chemistry. If you were entirely ignorant of chemistry, as you started to explain the universe, you would be forced to re-invent chemistry yourself from scratch. You would find that "clumping of elements" is an inescapable part of how the universe works.


That's why I think that it's misleading and a little disingenuous for atheists to continually attack what they call 'theistic worldviews', while insisting that they have no atheistic worldviews of their own, because atheism is simply lack of belief and lack of belief can't contribute to shaping worldviews. That's just false.
Look up the null hypothesis. It is one of the pillars of the scientific method and rational thought.

To paraphrase it means that: in the absence of evidence to the contrary, assume there is no phenomena here at all. Only with evidence of a phenomenon do we go looking for an explanation.

So the rationalists worldview, if you will, is 'I'm going to go about my life as normal. If you show me what I am missing, I will incorporate into my worldview. But until you show me, it didn't happen.'
 
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lightgigantic
given that there are a truck load of other things that saying there is a god says about the universe, the same cargo is dumped (in the antithesis) for persons who say otherwise

Actually, we've all been saying that you cannot assume anything about a theist's worldview knowing only that they are a theist("knows god")other than it is a theistic world view. That's why we're having this whole argument asking what "knowing god" means. If you were to say you were a Christian theist we would know a little more, but then we have to ask Catholic or non-Catholic, Fundamentalist or Liberal theology, etc. etc....until we gradually(like pulling teeth)get to exactly which flavor of god we are being asked to have an opinion about "knowing". Saying I am an Atheists only tells you I do not accept any flavor of god I have investigated to have any merit or reality, at least so far.

I found no comprehensible point in the rest of the word salad of your post.

Grumpy:cool:
 
You seem to be suggesting that not believing in God means you miss out on lots of other great things that come from God.

They needn't be "great things". They might very well be false things. That's not the point. The point is that people who believe in God (however that word is conceived) and those who don't are likely to have worldviews that differ dramatically at many points.

If one doesn't believe something exists, one necessarily believes that (all things that are supposedly a consequence of that thing) don't exist either.

Right.

It's not that 'God was here and he disappeared, causing changes', it's that 'God was never here, thus nothing has changed'.

The point is simply that an atheist's not believing in God has bigtime implications for the kind of views that he/she will likely hold about many other aspects of life, history, ethics and the world.

The universe works perfectly fine without subscribing to magic.

That's probably true and I certainly think that.

The same thing cannot be said about chemistry. If you were entirely ignorant of chemistry, as you started to explain the universe, you would be forced to re-invent chemistry yourself from scratch. You would find that "clumping of elements" is an inescapable part of how the universe works.

Maybe so. But that doesn't change the fact that an absence of any belief in chemistry would have tremendous repercussions for the kind of theories advanced by biology, geology and in the rest of science.

Similarly, lack of belief in God is going to have serious repercussions on many other parts of an atheist's worldview.

Look up the null hypothesis. It is one of the pillars of the scientific method and rational thought.

A null hypothesis is still a hypothesis.

To paraphrase it means that: in the absence of evidence to the contrary, assume there is no phenomena here at all. Only with evidence of a phenomenon do we go looking for an explanation.

There's no evidence to the contrary? That seems to be a stronger view than simple disbelief in God. It's an additional premise about the evidence for God and it threatens to contradict the assertion that atheism is simply lack of belief in God, and nothing more.

But that's kind of wide of the point. Nobody is suggesting that in the absence of evidence of God, that people go looking for God as an explanation of evidence that doesn't exist.

The point is that whether or not evidence for God exists, lack of belief still represents an implicit hypothesis, even if it's unconscious, and even if we choose (rightly or wrongly) to call it our 'null hypothesis' or our 'default condition'.

The ancient Greeks weren't conscious that they knew virtually nothing about chemistry either. But their broader view of the natural world was still strongly influenced by that lack.

So the rationalists worldview, if you will, is 'I'm going to go about my life as normal. If you show me what I am missing, I will incorporate into my worldview. But until you show me, it didn't happen.'

That's perfectly fine with me. I don't believe in God and that's what I do. But atheists, including myself, are still going to have atheistic worldviews, even if we feel fully justified in not adding unnecessary and unsubstantiated beliefs in God to them.
 
to know god means , and I said this before

means knowing our Ancient History , at least 6000yrs ago

to the Sumerians and the Akkadians they were NOT considered gods

the Akkadians called them Ilu- " Lofty Ones " ( notice the plural )

as an atheists this means that the bible is really the condensed version of the Ancient past
 
Yazata

The point is that people who believe in God (however that word is conceived) and those who don't are likely to have worldviews that differ dramatically at many points.

And the point we are making is that though they are likely to be different, just knowing the theist/atheist duality is knowing only one difference with any meaningful certainty. IE a theist world view is religious, an atheist one is not. Even then there are many forms of religious paradigms, slightly fewer but still very diverse atheist paradigms.

I would argue further that the atheist view is the default view on the question of god(s)(IE Occam says limit your entities/forces/causes to the least that adequately explain the phenomina)unless and until the theist view becomes necessary to explain the Universe or anything in it and evidence of that necessity is forthcoming. Ancient man's(or even modern man's in cases like Scientology or Mormonism)superstitious, supernatural beliefs notwithstanding.

And the strange thing is that all theists agree with me, except in the case of their particular god(s)'s existence. They are all atheist to all the other god(s).

the assertion that atheism is simply lack of belief in God, and nothing more.

The assertion is that it TELLS YOU NOTHING ABOUT THE WORLDVIEW of the atheist beyond a lack of theism. You've put forward a bunch of theistic consequences that the atheist does not accept as ever being real. As I've said before, I know nothing about the breeding habits of the Unicorn. As an atheist I don't accept the idea that there are breeding habits to be known for things that just do not exist. The same goes for "knowing god", whatever that means to the theist asking the question.

But that doesn't change the fact that an absence of any belief in chemistry would have tremendous repercussions for the kind of theories advanced by biology, geology and in the rest of science.

And those consequences are real and are caused by ignorance of real things. God, not so much.

There's no evidence to the contrary?

Got any? No one else does. We get assertions, told about revelations, shown texts making many fantastic and often hilarious claims, pointed toward reams of commentaries about unproven assertions in ancient texts with fantastic, supernatural claims, ridiculed, condemned to hell... But no evidence. And without evidence of a phenominon it is irrational to accept that it is real.

The point is that whether or not evidence for God exists, lack of belief still represents an implicit hypothesis, even if it's unconscious, and even if we choose (rightly or wrongly) to call it our 'null hypothesis' or our 'default condition'.

Belief is not a choice, thus the intense indoctrination of children from birth necessary to raise them to be believers in irrational concepts. And even then there are those who just don't buy it, they cannot make themselves believe what their own intellect tells them is non-sense. I was raised by a fundamentalist Baptist preacher, went to church(by force if necessary)every time the doors were opened, was the all time champion in Bible drills, went to vacation Bible school 3 or 4 times each summer(I can create true art with just a box of macaroni and some white glue), etc. But I never believed a bit of it other than the wisdom contained in some of Jesus' words and teachings. My mind easily recognized the wheat(Jesus' philosophy)and discarded the chaff(talking snakes and donkeys, etc). It also recognized the evil contained in the beliefs outlined in the Old Testament(the OT god and the NT god have little in common).

Grumpy:cool:
 
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