What created "existence"?
- Thread starter static76
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I do not think existance was ever created because the universe has always existed. Therefore, I think the question should be:
Why is there existance vs. non-existance?
Why is there existance vs. non-existance?
Haha. Good point. Why would the reason exist? I never thought of that. It is Friday I agree let's have a drink.
Well, that's a good question. But at some point you have to assume that something has always existed. The way I see it there are only 2 options:
a) A higher power (or God) has always existed and created the universe.
b) The universe has always existed.
I think the simplest answer is #2. I also think that given the option, there is more evidence for #2. Now some might think #2 is purely #2 (Sorry couldn't resist
). Since we have no proof I go with the simplest answer and say that the universe has always existed and did not have a starting point. It is therefore a potential infinite.Hey man, I just want to learn the logic behind the assumption. Is there any? I gave you some questions that I think beg answering in light of the assumption.
And, why are you so hung up on the universe, per se? How can anything always exist? (yeah, by the way: my answer -- "behold, it does!")
And, why are you so hung up on the universe, per se? How can anything always exist? (yeah, by the way: my answer -- "behold, it does!")
I wasn't trying to come off as I disagree with your statements. I was simply trying to understand how existence came to be.
I'm not sure why you think I'm hung up on the universe, I was responding to an earlier post that said...
a) A higher power (or God) has always existed and created the universe.
b) The universe has always existed.
Lastly, your question "How can anything always exist?", is the basis for this thread. That's what I trying to understand...
How is this logical? How can we assume to know anything about something so far removed from our experience? Wouldn't it be something completely beyond 'intelligent'? At any rate, it is still unnecessary to insert a creator here. It only pushes the question to the creator instead of the universe.
I do not know how it has always existed. But do you not see that you are only complicating the solution by introducing "intelligent being or beings" into the equation? How would these beings always exist? If they didn't, what created them? The simplest answer is that it has always existed.
static,
No-no, disagree all you want. I beseech you! Ok, I encourage you.
Please, don't think you can offend my sensibilities; my skin is probably thicker than my skull And please don't take my somewhat kurt language as an attempt to insult.
Merely, your postulate for the "cause" of the universe is quite elaborate and non-arbitrary. My questions were designed to understand just how you arrive at such a postulate. And in case you haven't thought about it yet, make you think.
Basically, my position is simple. If we are to assume causality (i.e. everything is caused by something else, implying the cause is itself caused by something else, etc.) then what we get is an infinite chain of causation, stretching forever into the past with no definite beginning or "first cause" because any such cause would defy causation itself (it would have had to be caused by something.) That's how one arrives at the conclusion that the universe has always existed. Not necessarily in the form we know and love, but the underlying reality that gave rise to the Big Bang, or the underlying reality of that underlying reality, or whatever the ultimate reality is if there even is one -- that reality has to have always existed. At least I don't see any other reasonable conclusion.
No-no, disagree all you want. I beseech you! Ok, I encourage you.
Please, don't think you can offend my sensibilities; my skin is probably thicker than my skull
And please don't take my somewhat kurt language as an attempt to insult.Merely, your postulate for the "cause" of the universe is quite elaborate and non-arbitrary. My questions were designed to understand just how you arrive at such a postulate. And in case you haven't thought about it yet, make you think.
Basically, my position is simple. If we are to assume causality (i.e. everything is caused by something else, implying the cause is itself caused by something else, etc.) then what we get is an infinite chain of causation, stretching forever into the past with no definite beginning or "first cause" because any such cause would defy causation itself (it would have had to be caused by something.) That's how one arrives at the conclusion that the universe has always existed. Not necessarily in the form we know and love, but the underlying reality that gave rise to the Big Bang, or the underlying reality of that underlying reality, or whatever the ultimate reality is if there even is one -- that reality has to have always existed. At least I don't see any other reasonable conclusion.
Why is it unnecessary? I never said that it the only assumption one can make. Just that it's the one that make the most sense to me. The reason I started this thread was to get other ideas from my own.
I don't see this as "complicating the solution", I'm just stating that "existence", if it was created, would probably(in my opinion) be created by an intelligent being or beings. I'm not saying this is the only answer, just a possible one.
Postoak,
I'm pretty sure you are right! I need to go back read some basic philosophy...perhaps without the beer induced haze of college this time around.
I'm pretty sure you are right! I need to go back read some basic philosophy...perhaps without the beer induced haze of college this time around.
fadingCaptain, static76, and overdoze: where were you when we had this discussion last time?
Also remember that observation plays a role in this. Observe that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. The same goes for energy. Infinity is the only logical answer.
How can something come from nothing? If a start must exist, then what started the starter? These are the holes in creation theory.
Also remember that observation plays a role in this. Observe that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. The same goes for energy. Infinity is the only logical answer.
How can something come from nothing? If a start must exist, then what started the starter? These are the holes in creation theory.
As far I we know in our universe this is true. But whose to say these laws are applicable to a plane of existence outside our universe. If matter can neither be created nor destroyed, how did it come to be in the first place?
Not really, one could say that God is an infinite being that started our plane of existence and our universe. Not saying it's true, however, the arguement can be made.