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What are your views on abortion?
- Thread starter TruthSeeker
- Start date
shrubby pegasus
Registered Senior Member
okinrus you dont live in the same world as me. i see the reality of it. xevious and you over flow with self righteous ideals. your ideals are both inefficient and delusional in the world i see. im not going to pretend the world works out well for everyone. im going to look at it how it really is and deal with it in an effective , pragmatic manner
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Xevious thanks for explaining your opinion. I disagree with most of what you reason and yea I do think you are idealistic. The points regarding rape and incest: Yes they are small compared to the amount of women who choose to abort simply because they are not ready to be a parent. What I was suggesting is that there are females who would CHOOSE to abort under those circumstances. No one can force an abortion on a woman it is something she decideds. I am not sure what you meant by rape being overreported or the incidence of rape against males (by other males), I only brought up the subject in regards to your position on abortion. The limits on abortion in European countries is fair and commonly accepted up to three months, similarly the majority of abortions in the States occurs within two months. Women who know they do not want to carry a child does not wait around enduring the symptoms of pregnancy, they take action after having missed one or two periods. It does not take too long for a woman to know she is with child. The majority of abortions (and I know women who have had more than one) are quite safe, abortions are rarely botched but would become increasingly so if women have to seek them illegaly. You have mentioned that the war on drugs...that war has been fought for a very long time now and it is a losing battle. I dont think that a woman should necessarily abort because she is a drug addict, but if she decides to abort because she recognizes her lifestyle is unhealthy then I think the decision commendable.
You wrote: It is in the end, the WHOLE ISSUE, is about a lack of love, isn't it? No one is there to love the unborn child, or love the mother enough to support them to keep it. Lots of women would rather have abortions than be single moms because they stand a better chance of haing a man in their lives then. That speaks volumes of how much a man truly loves his girlfriend if he tells her he doesn't want to be a daddy too soon (or for that matter, marry her).
Lack of love? I don't think forcing women to carry a child to term if they are absolutely against having one is very loving. Your arguments always seem to assume that a woman wants the child and aborts unwillingly. I personally have known women who have aborted though the boyfriend wanted the child; they just were not ready to be mothers. Women do not want to be single mothers because that is not how they envision their lives. People are not necessarily copulating because they are 'in love'. You still have not given me a reason why it concerns you what your next door neighbor does with her body? If your next door neighbor has an abortion (you probably wouldnt know anyway) but if she did how does that affect you? How does abortion infringe on your rights?
Okinrus you wrote: Are you saying that 10 seconds before the child is born, I have no stake, or that 10 seconds after the child is born I have a stake? The law cannot go both ways without remaining hypocritical. If there is a cutoff line, then this same logic can be still used but from the cutoff. I believe in a consistent and easy to understand law and I think this is the opinion of most people.
Okinrus I asked you what stake you have in the issue of abortion. Meaning that if you are not the one carrying the child or the father who gave seed then I do not see how it concerns you other than that you would not make the same choice in the given circumstance. What business is it of yours? How does abortion infringe on your personal rights?
Quote: I would say that abortion does just as much harm to the mother than the fetus.
Bollucks Okinrus I know quite a few women who have aborted without regret and without tears.
Shrubby Pegasus: You make some excellent points in this argument, I don't know if you are a male or female but I'm glad you are out there.
You wrote: It is in the end, the WHOLE ISSUE, is about a lack of love, isn't it? No one is there to love the unborn child, or love the mother enough to support them to keep it. Lots of women would rather have abortions than be single moms because they stand a better chance of haing a man in their lives then. That speaks volumes of how much a man truly loves his girlfriend if he tells her he doesn't want to be a daddy too soon (or for that matter, marry her).
Lack of love? I don't think forcing women to carry a child to term if they are absolutely against having one is very loving. Your arguments always seem to assume that a woman wants the child and aborts unwillingly. I personally have known women who have aborted though the boyfriend wanted the child; they just were not ready to be mothers. Women do not want to be single mothers because that is not how they envision their lives. People are not necessarily copulating because they are 'in love'. You still have not given me a reason why it concerns you what your next door neighbor does with her body? If your next door neighbor has an abortion (you probably wouldnt know anyway) but if she did how does that affect you? How does abortion infringe on your rights?
Okinrus you wrote: Are you saying that 10 seconds before the child is born, I have no stake, or that 10 seconds after the child is born I have a stake? The law cannot go both ways without remaining hypocritical. If there is a cutoff line, then this same logic can be still used but from the cutoff. I believe in a consistent and easy to understand law and I think this is the opinion of most people.
Okinrus I asked you what stake you have in the issue of abortion. Meaning that if you are not the one carrying the child or the father who gave seed then I do not see how it concerns you other than that you would not make the same choice in the given circumstance. What business is it of yours? How does abortion infringe on your personal rights?
Quote: I would say that abortion does just as much harm to the mother than the fetus.
Bollucks Okinrus I know quite a few women who have aborted without regret and without tears.
Shrubby Pegasus: You make some excellent points in this argument, I don't know if you are a male or female but I'm glad you are out there.
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If this was the case, I would have no stake if that women killed her 10 second year old baby. Is that what your saying? That I have no stake at all? Of course I have stake in preserving the lives of fellow human beings, but I do not have the authority to prosecute what has been done. How does abortion infringe on my personal rights? It was told to me by one of my friends that a middle school girl brought a glass tube with an aborted fetus with the words Live(evil). Pretty good first impression. Another reason is that I'm sick of seeing all these aborted fetus pictures. Basically it infringes my right to be happy because I can never be happy when there is a holocaust going on behind my back.Okinrus I asked you what stake you have in the issue of abortion. Meaning that if you are not the one carrying the child or the father who gave seed then I do not see how it concerns you other than that you would not make the same choice in the given circumstance. What business is it of yours? How does abortion infringe on your personal rights?
You do not consider harm what I consider harm.Bollucks Okinrus I know quite a few women who have aborted without regret and without tears.
In the World, is that how you are basing your morality? Abortion is effective, pragmatic, and clean but still death. My dog is treated more kind than the way abortionist treat their babies.okinrus you dont live in the same world as me. i see the reality of it. xevious and you over flow with self righteous ideals. your ideals are both inefficient and delusional in the world i see. im not going to pretend the world works out well for everyone. im going to look at it how it really is and deal with it in an effective , pragmatic manner
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Quote: If this was the case, I would have no stake if that women killed her 10 second year old baby. Is that what your saying? That I have no stake at all? Of course I have stake in preserving the lives of fellow human beings, but I do not have the authority to prosecute what has been done. How does abortion infringe on my personal rights? It was told to me by one of my friends that a middle school girl brought a glass tube with an aborted fetus with the words Live(evil). Pretty good first impression. Another reason is that I'm sick of seeing all these aborted fetus pictures. Basically it infringes my right to be happy because I can never be happy when there is a holocaust going on behind my back.
You're a quack Okinrus! Where would a middle-school girl find an aborted fetus? Think man Think! You have to go looking for pictures of aborted fetuses, so stop looking at them, they are not on billboards you know! Those pics are just tools of the pro-life movement many of which are concocted. The average aborted fetus is seven inches long and not yet a 'baby'. You wouldn't even notice it if I dropped it in your tomato-gumbo soup! If knowledge of abortion keeps you from being happy then you will never be happy. As we speak there are children and adults being murdered all over the world do they also keep you up at night? Do you wimper over capital punishment? Daisy-Cutters being dropped in Afghanistan? People being shot to death in inner-cities? You don't feel a smidgen of supposed 'sadness' over a woman having an abortion, that's just the bullshit you write because you know damn well that all the faceless, nameless women who are having an abortion while you wile away on the computer does not infringe on your rights or happiness one bit! Just out of curiosity how many children have you adopted lately? What do you actively do to promote a better life for women and children? At least Xevious seems engaged in the lives of people he believes needs help, what do you do Okinrus? Even when illegal Okinrus women will find a means to abort if they really do not want a child. All over the world Okinrus women are having abortions now if that is keeping you from being happy then I suggest therapy. God I detest feigned emotion...it is an injustice to the real sentiment of sadness. So again I ask you HOW DOES A WOMAN YOU DON'T KNOW HAVING AN ABORTION OF A CHILD THAT IS NOT YOURS INFRINGE ON YOUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOM? WHAT DOES IT TAKE AWAY FROM YOU PERSONALLY?
You wrote: You do not consider harm what I consider harm.
Is that it? Care to elaborate? I know women who have had an abortion with no regrets and no tears, I also have known a woman (catholic) who has had TWO abortions (she also has two sons) who wonders what could have been; but she still did not regret her decision as she believes it was the best choice to make. The women go about their lives free of guilt about their choice. So where the hell is the harm other than in your minds projection?
You're a quack Okinrus! Where would a middle-school girl find an aborted fetus? Think man Think! You have to go looking for pictures of aborted fetuses, so stop looking at them, they are not on billboards you know! Those pics are just tools of the pro-life movement many of which are concocted. The average aborted fetus is seven inches long and not yet a 'baby'. You wouldn't even notice it if I dropped it in your tomato-gumbo soup! If knowledge of abortion keeps you from being happy then you will never be happy. As we speak there are children and adults being murdered all over the world do they also keep you up at night? Do you wimper over capital punishment? Daisy-Cutters being dropped in Afghanistan? People being shot to death in inner-cities? You don't feel a smidgen of supposed 'sadness' over a woman having an abortion, that's just the bullshit you write because you know damn well that all the faceless, nameless women who are having an abortion while you wile away on the computer does not infringe on your rights or happiness one bit! Just out of curiosity how many children have you adopted lately? What do you actively do to promote a better life for women and children? At least Xevious seems engaged in the lives of people he believes needs help, what do you do Okinrus? Even when illegal Okinrus women will find a means to abort if they really do not want a child. All over the world Okinrus women are having abortions now if that is keeping you from being happy then I suggest therapy. God I detest feigned emotion...it is an injustice to the real sentiment of sadness. So again I ask you HOW DOES A WOMAN YOU DON'T KNOW HAVING AN ABORTION OF A CHILD THAT IS NOT YOURS INFRINGE ON YOUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOM? WHAT DOES IT TAKE AWAY FROM YOU PERSONALLY?
You wrote: You do not consider harm what I consider harm.
Is that it? Care to elaborate? I know women who have had an abortion with no regrets and no tears, I also have known a woman (catholic) who has had TWO abortions (she also has two sons) who wonders what could have been; but she still did not regret her decision as she believes it was the best choice to make. The women go about their lives free of guilt about their choice. So where the hell is the harm other than in your minds projection?
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Xevious:
For all the hints you give at what a wonderful human being you think yourself to be, I have a strong impression that your ultimate motivation is not, after all, protecting those that can't protect themselves, but rather that you see pregnancy as a punishment. And at the end of the day, you see pregnancy as a means to impose your own moral will in a wider way:
You say this in response to my statement that murder is the taking of life that could otherwise sustain itself. I think you know very well that I am referring to the fact that a fetus is only a viable life while within the womb. But I'm glad it gave you an opportunity to amuse yourself and lie brilliantly about how it's one of the funniest things you've ever heard.This is probably one of the most hilarious statements I've read so far.
I wasn't aware that there was a big hubbub in my little 3 paragraph post and again, I think you're being coy about "preconceptions." Here are some of your own:You know, for all the big hu-bub your making there isn't one logically structured argument made so far. WHAT preconceptions specifically are you talking about, and how much more naively simplistic can arguments get other than those you have already made?
What I can tell you is that abortion is far cheaper than caring for them.
All abortion does in this case is remove a tell-tale sign of incestuous abuse
Lots of women would rather have abortions than be single moms because they stand a better chance of haing a man in their lives then
It strikes me that you're the one being simplistic here. You said yourself, it's for society as a whole to decide what's right and wrong, and I guess you're just miffed it hasn't gone your way. Nonetheless, society ultimately has no role in this - the legal or moral status of abortion makes no difference. Abortion's been going on since women got pregnant - it's not a modern day phenonemon - and will continue. However, this being the case it can continue safely Surely, when you say:Honestly, I in the end can see the only reason people have abortions is because it removes the consequences of sex
you should bear in mind the far greater butchery and death resulting from inevitable backstreet abortions.Abortionists love to martyer themselves as opressed because 5 or 6 abortion doctors have died in the last 20 years, but don't say anything about women left sterile or worse, DEAD by botched abortions
For all the hints you give at what a wonderful human being you think yourself to be, I have a strong impression that your ultimate motivation is not, after all, protecting those that can't protect themselves, but rather that you see pregnancy as a punishment. And at the end of the day, you see pregnancy as a means to impose your own moral will in a wider way:
In the end, yes it does come down to "It is so unfair that women have to carry children against their will." Unfortunetly, this is just how the female is biologicalyl designed. The only way to work around it is to practice abstinance. It doesn't take anything away from a healthy courtship to do so.
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Like I said this is from a friend I knew and my friend probably got this from someone else. I can't quite remember if it was middle school or maybe the year after in highschool. Oh well doesn't matter. I suspect even that my friend was pulling my leg maybe seeing one of the Nirvana album covers but I think he was telling the truth.You're a quack Okinrus! Where would a middle-school girl find an aborted fetus?
No I've been handed ones by people. Nothing you can really do to escape what is factual evidence.Think man Think! You have to go looking for pictures of aborted fetuses, so stop looking at them, they are not on billboards you know! Those pics are just tools of the pro-life movement many of which are concocted.
I guess were only entitled to the persuit of happyness and not happyness in general. Nevertheless I can never be happy knowing that people hate human life. It's not so much sadness than the everpresent prospect of doom.If knowledge of abortion keeps you from being happy then you will never be happy.
Yes but at the same time society in general knows that is wrong. There's not much more we can do to stop people from murdering others.As we speak there are children and adults being murdered all over the world do they also keep you up at night?
I consider capital punishment both wrong and ineffective but there is a slight difference in that the fetus is innocent while the convict is not. There is some evidence that shows that the convict stands a good chance of being innocent.Do you wimper over capital punishment?
...go on your only showing what kind of harm abortion does to society. Abortion presents a society that simply does not care about human life.You don't feel a smidgen of supposed 'sadness' over a woman having an abortion, that's just the bullshit you write because you know damn well that all the faceless, nameless women who are having an abortion while you wile away on the computer does not infringe on your rights or happiness one bit!
I couldn't adopt a child even if I wanted to and as for promoting a better life, I do not do too much for various reasons besides very very small gifts of charity, but I don't really see what this has to do with abortion. My real reasons for being against abortion are more "quacky" than you can understand so I present ones in hope that you do understand.Just out of curiosity how many children have you adopted lately? What do you actively do to promote a better life for women and children? At least Xevious seems engaged in the lives of people he believes needs help, what do you do Okinrus?
It has taken away myh chance to know 2 million little children. Need I present any more evidence?HOW DOES A WOMAN YOU DON'T KNOW HAVING AN ABORTION OF A CHILD THAT IS NOT YOURS INFRINGE ON YOUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOM? WHAT DOES IT TAKE AWAY FROM YOU PERSONALLY?
No one can go through an abortion without guilt unless if they come to the conclusion that the fetus is not a human being. People may tell you that they are free from guilt but can you tell the difference between pride and freedom? Of course not and neither can I because only God knows. I've been kind of throwing around the word murder loosely, but if the women truely believes that the fetus is not a human being then they have killed someone by accident. Of course this would require 100% certainty that the fetus is not a human being and only God is able to know or no one is able to. Let's say, for example, that a women decides to put her carrer ahead of her unborn child. She has weakened herself by doing this because she is treating life secondary to her carrer. There is also another entity that she strengthens but there's no need going into what you do not believe in.but she still did not regret her decision as she believes it was the best choice to make. The women go about their lives free of guilt about their choice. So where the hell is the harm other than in your minds projection?
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Not at all, MacZ. Pregnancy isn't punishment, it is the power of creation, and with power comes responsibility.
I've grown tired of arguing for several reasons. One, it seems no one here has a clue what the legal issues around Roe vs. Wade are. It seems no one either took a stab at my points on biology. Again, they wern't refuted. It seems strange that I was the only one here who touched on issues which could be refuted and wern't at all based on point of view.
For the record MacZ, if abortion WAS a societal concensus, it would be a law which would have been passed by our societies represenetive democratic government, which it was not. You ignored each and every point I made on the realities of Roe vs. Wade and responded with a simple denial with no substance. Furthermore, your attacks on my character instead of my arguments only bolster that it is the only real attack you can make. Fortunetly, I need not resort to such tactics to make my point as I am confident enough in my arguments. It would seem you are not as confident in yours if attacking my person is the way you have to go.
I accept that we see differntly, but that doesn't mean I have to accept the decision of the Supreme Court. There are those of us who will continue to oppose legalized abortion and our efforts have not yet been totally in vain. Remember, if Pro-Life was a minority, abortion would be in the letter of the law and not in the court rulings.
MY FINAL THOUGHTS:
If I hear about a woman getting raped in the street or for that matter see it myself, do I just go on and let it happen? No, that certanly isn't right. After all, what you are suggesting it comes down to is "Hey, it isn't happening to you. Why be concerned?" That woman being raped down the street has nothing to do with me. Why should I care? I CARE BECAUSE I LOVE. That is all it takes. Why shouldn't I care? If someone is doing acid and screwing her brains up, why should I care? Why shouldn't I care? If I see some homeless woman picking a garbage can, why should I take a few dollars from my pocket and offer her a descent meal? Why shouldn't I?
I've grown tired of arguing for several reasons. One, it seems no one here has a clue what the legal issues around Roe vs. Wade are. It seems no one either took a stab at my points on biology. Again, they wern't refuted. It seems strange that I was the only one here who touched on issues which could be refuted and wern't at all based on point of view.
For the record MacZ, if abortion WAS a societal concensus, it would be a law which would have been passed by our societies represenetive democratic government, which it was not. You ignored each and every point I made on the realities of Roe vs. Wade and responded with a simple denial with no substance. Furthermore, your attacks on my character instead of my arguments only bolster that it is the only real attack you can make. Fortunetly, I need not resort to such tactics to make my point as I am confident enough in my arguments. It would seem you are not as confident in yours if attacking my person is the way you have to go.
I accept that we see differntly, but that doesn't mean I have to accept the decision of the Supreme Court. There are those of us who will continue to oppose legalized abortion and our efforts have not yet been totally in vain. Remember, if Pro-Life was a minority, abortion would be in the letter of the law and not in the court rulings.
MY FINAL THOUGHTS:
You still have not given me a reason why it concerns you what your next door neighbor does with her body? If your next door neighbor has an abortion (you probably wouldnt know anyway) but if she did how does that affect you? How does abortion infringe on your rights?
If I hear about a woman getting raped in the street or for that matter see it myself, do I just go on and let it happen? No, that certanly isn't right. After all, what you are suggesting it comes down to is "Hey, it isn't happening to you. Why be concerned?" That woman being raped down the street has nothing to do with me. Why should I care? I CARE BECAUSE I LOVE. That is all it takes. Why shouldn't I care? If someone is doing acid and screwing her brains up, why should I care? Why shouldn't I care? If I see some homeless woman picking a garbage can, why should I take a few dollars from my pocket and offer her a descent meal? Why shouldn't I?
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shrubby pegasus
Registered Senior Member
xevious your points on biology are ridiculous and subjective. the reason no one replied to them is because they are nonsense and it has been refuted in the earlier 7 pages of this thread. again i tell you to go back and read everythoing so you can understand. also i guess you cannot understand the analogies i drew in response to your "science." maybe think about those if you can open your mind at all. my analogies show the silliness of your "biology" argument
shrubby pegasus
Registered Senior Member
Lucysnow:
i am male by the way. i agree with all the points you have made as well. i have also noticed the "moral" high ground of our opponents prevents them from even considering our evident and supported points. that comes with the territory of people who have limited exposure to varieties of people with different ideals and cultures. morals and worldviews are both relative things. the more exposure we have to different people and different cultures, the better off we all are. that is one place where europe has a huge advantage over us stupid americans.
i am male by the way. i agree with all the points you have made as well. i have also noticed the "moral" high ground of our opponents prevents them from even considering our evident and supported points. that comes with the territory of people who have limited exposure to varieties of people with different ideals and cultures. morals and worldviews are both relative things. the more exposure we have to different people and different cultures, the better off we all are. that is one place where europe has a huge advantage over us stupid americans.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Quote: "It has taken away myh chance to know 2 million little children. Need I present any more evidence?"
Okinrus you don't know 2 million little children now! You would never have known them if they had lived.
*Shudders to think what would happen to human population growth if every moron who gets pregnant decides to have a baby*
Quote: No one can go through an abortion without guilt unless if they come to the conclusion that the fetus is not a human being. People may tell you that they are free from guilt but can you tell the difference between pride and freedom? Of course not and neither can I because only God knows. I've been kind of throwing around the word murder loosely, but if the women truely believes that the fetus is not a human being then they have killed someone by accident. Of course this would require 100% certainty that the fetus is not a human being and only God is able to know or no one is able to. Let's say, for example, that a women decides to put her carrer ahead of her unborn child. She has weakened herself by doing this because she is treating life secondary to her carrer. There is also another entity that she strengthens but there's no need going into what you do not believe in.
If they felt guilt then why do some women have more than one abortion? Some poor wenchs even use it erroneously as birth control. I was going to insult you but then re-read your text and it is just so absolutely amazing....you are one sheltered naive young man. Any woman who has been pregnant knows that the fetus is a future baby, not desiring that she may abort. Believe it or not Okinrus there are some women who are actually relieved after having an abortion and having put it behind them move on with their lives. If a woman chooses a career over having a baby it is not because she cares nothing for life it is because she prefers to be happy in hers. Most women who have had an abortion go on to have children later on in life.
Xevious you wrote:
If I hear about a woman getting raped in the street or for that matter see it myself, do I just go on and let it happen? No, that certanly isn't right. After all, what you are suggesting it comes down to is "Hey, it isn't happening to you. Why be concerned?" That woman being raped down the street has nothing to do with me. Why should I care? I CARE BECAUSE I LOVE. That is all it takes. Why shouldn't I care? If someone is doing acid and screwing her brains up, why should I care? Why shouldn't I care? If I see some homeless woman picking a garbage can, why should I take a few dollars from my pocket and offer her a descent meal? Why shouldn't I?
Having an abortion is NOT equivilant to being raped. As someone who uses legality and biological reasoning to support an anti-abortion stance I am suprised you would use such an analogy. When or if your next door neighbor tells you to mind your own business then perhaps you would see my point. A woman having an abortion generally feels relief from getting her life back. All of you speak of love but I find this ubiquitious word has been watered down to the point of being meaningless. Love also means allowing people to do what is right for themselves and not simply what you imagine for them. Stalkers also harrass and intrude on their victims under the guise of love. Grown women are not children who need guidance from you.
Pegasus you wrote: i have also noticed the "moral" high ground of our opponents prevents them from even considering our evident and supported points. that comes with the territory of people who have limited exposure to varieties of people with different ideals and cultures. morals and worldviews are both relative things. the more exposure we have to different people and different cultures, the better off we all are. that is one place where europe has a huge advantage over us stupid americans.
Yes I agree it is this moral high ground that I find most disturbing. I have no problems with someone not condoning abortion in their lives but this need they feel to intervene on someone elses is dangerous if not simply intrusive and arrogant. Americans always seem like children compared to Europeans and I have often wondered why. There is a peurile optimisim and idealism wrapped in religious fervor; a morbidity breeding sentiments that would vote Mickey Mouse as president and the belief that life can turn out like an after-school special.
Okinrus you don't know 2 million little children now! You would never have known them if they had lived.
*Shudders to think what would happen to human population growth if every moron who gets pregnant decides to have a baby*
Quote: No one can go through an abortion without guilt unless if they come to the conclusion that the fetus is not a human being. People may tell you that they are free from guilt but can you tell the difference between pride and freedom? Of course not and neither can I because only God knows. I've been kind of throwing around the word murder loosely, but if the women truely believes that the fetus is not a human being then they have killed someone by accident. Of course this would require 100% certainty that the fetus is not a human being and only God is able to know or no one is able to. Let's say, for example, that a women decides to put her carrer ahead of her unborn child. She has weakened herself by doing this because she is treating life secondary to her carrer. There is also another entity that she strengthens but there's no need going into what you do not believe in.
If they felt guilt then why do some women have more than one abortion? Some poor wenchs even use it erroneously as birth control. I was going to insult you but then re-read your text and it is just so absolutely amazing....you are one sheltered naive young man. Any woman who has been pregnant knows that the fetus is a future baby, not desiring that she may abort. Believe it or not Okinrus there are some women who are actually relieved after having an abortion and having put it behind them move on with their lives. If a woman chooses a career over having a baby it is not because she cares nothing for life it is because she prefers to be happy in hers. Most women who have had an abortion go on to have children later on in life.
Xevious you wrote:
If I hear about a woman getting raped in the street or for that matter see it myself, do I just go on and let it happen? No, that certanly isn't right. After all, what you are suggesting it comes down to is "Hey, it isn't happening to you. Why be concerned?" That woman being raped down the street has nothing to do with me. Why should I care? I CARE BECAUSE I LOVE. That is all it takes. Why shouldn't I care? If someone is doing acid and screwing her brains up, why should I care? Why shouldn't I care? If I see some homeless woman picking a garbage can, why should I take a few dollars from my pocket and offer her a descent meal? Why shouldn't I?
Having an abortion is NOT equivilant to being raped. As someone who uses legality and biological reasoning to support an anti-abortion stance I am suprised you would use such an analogy. When or if your next door neighbor tells you to mind your own business then perhaps you would see my point. A woman having an abortion generally feels relief from getting her life back. All of you speak of love but I find this ubiquitious word has been watered down to the point of being meaningless. Love also means allowing people to do what is right for themselves and not simply what you imagine for them. Stalkers also harrass and intrude on their victims under the guise of love. Grown women are not children who need guidance from you.
Pegasus you wrote: i have also noticed the "moral" high ground of our opponents prevents them from even considering our evident and supported points. that comes with the territory of people who have limited exposure to varieties of people with different ideals and cultures. morals and worldviews are both relative things. the more exposure we have to different people and different cultures, the better off we all are. that is one place where europe has a huge advantage over us stupid americans.
Yes I agree it is this moral high ground that I find most disturbing. I have no problems with someone not condoning abortion in their lives but this need they feel to intervene on someone elses is dangerous if not simply intrusive and arrogant. Americans always seem like children compared to Europeans and I have often wondered why. There is a peurile optimisim and idealism wrapped in religious fervor; a morbidity breeding sentiments that would vote Mickey Mouse as president and the belief that life can turn out like an after-school special.
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There are serial murderers as well. Once the decision has been made, it is very hard to choose the correct decision the next time. This is why I said that abortion weakens themselves.If they felt guilt then why do some women have more than one abortion? Some poor wenchs even use it erroneously as birth control. I was going to insult you but then re-read your text and it is just so absolutely amazing....you are one sheltered naive young man.
Your vaguely throwing around most women without stating anything to prove it.Any woman who has been pregnant knows that the fetus is a future baby, not desiring that she may abort. Believe it or not Okinrus there are some women who are actually relieved after having an abortion and having put it behind them move on with their lives. If a woman chooses a career over having a baby it is not because she cares nothing for life it is because she prefers to be happy in hers. Most women who have had an abortion go on to have children later on in life.
There's no moral high ground. Pro-lifer's have come to the conclusion that the fetus is a human being and should be protected by law. This decision has very little to do with religion but because many do have a religion sometimes religious arguments are used. Deciding your morals on what Europe does is flawed; I'm sure you've heard the term Euro-trash. On the other hand, Europe is has divided on this issue as we are. European catholics are required to be against abortion so you should be able to find many europeans who are against abortion.Yes I agree it is this moral high ground that I find most disturbing. I have no problems with someone not condoning abortion in their lives but this need they feel to intervene on someone elses is dangerous if not simply intrusive and arrogant. Americans always seem like children compared to Europeans and I have often wondered why. There is a peurile optimisim and idealism wrapped in religious fervor; a morbidity breeding sentiments that would vote Mickey Mouse as president and the belief that life can turn out like an after-school special.
Part of the problem that I see is that you and Shrubby believe in this moral relativism. Ok, if abortion really was relative then there would be no way to know for sure if the fetus was a human being or not. Therefore, no one would have an abortion because the risk of commiting murder, abeit small, still exists. This is simply because absolute 100% sure information is impossible to find for mankind. So when anyone tries to judge whether something is wrong or not, they should at least throw out all of the information that does not matter such as carrer, car, and house and base there morals on principles. Of course without love we are merely unhappy in our carrers, car and house so from a moral standpoint we should only use love to judge ourselves.
shrubby pegasus
Registered Senior Member
okinrus you do not under stand the term moral relativism. it does imply that there moral absolute that the people just havent found out about yet. it means that morals are relative and subjective. the situation determines morals not a god or a religious perspecive. i dont believe in the premise of your religion so it is extremely difficult for me to accept everything you say that is derived from it, especially when i see obvious cases where your logic is flawed.
also, i do not see where you get this "euro trash" statement. as i look around the U.S., it is unreal at how many rednecks and prejudiced, ignorant peopel roaming around preaching hate. europe is far more advanced socially than the U.s. their world views and ideals look beyond their own selfishness. that is one of the reasons why every european you meet just cant understand why americans support someone as idiotic as bush. i think that you should have asked, "have you ever heard of american trash?" also not every catholic is anti abortion. the pope might say abortion is bad, but the last time i checked the pope is fallible. his position does not make him godly. he is still a human being afterall. and from some of the things that i have read that he said he seem just as blind aand misguided as yours.
okinrus i think my view of what human being and what the fetus are should be pretty obvious by now. i have posted numerous on this thread numerous times and have for the most part received no response to my views, just as lucysnow has not. this leads me to believe that you have not actually been reading our posts. so if you want to know my definition of a human life go back and read my posts. it is all there to be interpretted.
xevious: you did not acknowledge my argument about the american system, the court system, and out democracy. i think that if you really understood legal issues you woulndt argue roe v wade the way you do. so many of the arguments you bring up are totally irrelvevent. your understanding of the case is flawed. and your arguing about the roe v wade case is also irrelevent. it is beside the point.
also, i do not see where you get this "euro trash" statement. as i look around the U.S., it is unreal at how many rednecks and prejudiced, ignorant peopel roaming around preaching hate. europe is far more advanced socially than the U.s. their world views and ideals look beyond their own selfishness. that is one of the reasons why every european you meet just cant understand why americans support someone as idiotic as bush. i think that you should have asked, "have you ever heard of american trash?" also not every catholic is anti abortion. the pope might say abortion is bad, but the last time i checked the pope is fallible. his position does not make him godly. he is still a human being afterall. and from some of the things that i have read that he said he seem just as blind aand misguided as yours.
okinrus i think my view of what human being and what the fetus are should be pretty obvious by now. i have posted numerous on this thread numerous times and have for the most part received no response to my views, just as lucysnow has not. this leads me to believe that you have not actually been reading our posts. so if you want to know my definition of a human life go back and read my posts. it is all there to be interpretted.
xevious: you did not acknowledge my argument about the american system, the court system, and out democracy. i think that if you really understood legal issues you woulndt argue roe v wade the way you do. so many of the arguments you bring up are totally irrelvevent. your understanding of the case is flawed. and your arguing about the roe v wade case is also irrelevent. it is beside the point.
Well we all have nicknames etc. for members of society. Eurotrash is what americans call rich europeans, usually french and germans, who are snobby.also, i do not see where you get this "euro trash" statement. as i look around the U.S., it is unreal at how many rednecks and prejudiced, ignorant peopel roaming around preaching hate.
I don't think alot of americans fully support Bush on every issue, for example, I disagree with just about everything he has to say about the economy, capital punishment and war. On the otherhand, I agree with him on other issues. Also your metric for considering what is advance just happens to your own views. Using other metrics such as scientific, economic moral, or environmental issues might give different results.europe is far more advanced socially than the U.s. their world views and ideals look beyond their own selfishness. that is one of the reasons why every european you meet just cant understand why americans support someone as idiotic as bush.
Well I understand that, but to be catholic and pro-choice is an enigma because abortion almost means an automatic excommunication.i think that you should have asked, "have you ever heard of american trash?" also not every catholic is anti abortion.
Perhaps in some areas, but if a christian believes in abortion than he or she has pretty much does not believe in the existance of the human soul or God has the creator of human life.the pope might say abortion is bad, but the last time i checked the pope is fallible. his position does not make him godly. he is still a human being afterall. and from some of the things that i have read that he said he seem just as blind aand misguided as yours.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Quote: There are serial murderers as well. Once the decision has been made, it is very hard to choose the correct decision the next time. This is why I said that abortion weakens themselves.
That statement tells me everything I need to know about you. Women+abortion=serial killers? You are brain dead Okinrus. You know nothing of womens lives and have no feeling for life only assumptions about life and people.
Quote:Your vaguely throwing around most women without stating anything to prove it.
I am not throwing anything around. I am not a litttle girl musing in college my dear! I have worked for Lawyers For Children in family court and know quite a bit about child welfare. I have known MANY women whom have had abortions, a few who were also Catholics...and yes one I know still goes to church. It was a decision she made with her spouse, not the priest or pope, in the best interest of her family (she has two boys already). How many women have you known intimately that have chosen abortion? Your claims are subjectively based on your lack of knowledge about people and life Okinrus. Grow up!
Quote: So when anyone tries to judge whether something is wrong or not, they should at least throw out all of the information that does not matter such as carrer, car, and house and base there morals on principles. Of course without love we are merely unhappy in our carrers, car and house so from a moral standpoint we should only use love to judge ourselves.
You can only judge whether abortion is right or wrong for yourself no for me and not for any other woman. Okinrus what the hell do you know about love? How loving is it to make judgement about the lives of women you do not know? You make all these assumptions and have yet to give a meaningful answer to this one question: HOW DOES A WOMAN HAVING AN ABORTION INFRINGE ON YOUR RIGHTS? YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO STATE EMPHATICALLY WHAT WILL MAKE ANOTHER HAPPY OR TO DEFINE LOVE FOR EVERYONE ELSE!
That statement tells me everything I need to know about you. Women+abortion=serial killers? You are brain dead Okinrus. You know nothing of womens lives and have no feeling for life only assumptions about life and people.
Quote:Your vaguely throwing around most women without stating anything to prove it.
I am not throwing anything around. I am not a litttle girl musing in college my dear! I have worked for Lawyers For Children in family court and know quite a bit about child welfare. I have known MANY women whom have had abortions, a few who were also Catholics...and yes one I know still goes to church. It was a decision she made with her spouse, not the priest or pope, in the best interest of her family (she has two boys already). How many women have you known intimately that have chosen abortion? Your claims are subjectively based on your lack of knowledge about people and life Okinrus. Grow up!
Quote: So when anyone tries to judge whether something is wrong or not, they should at least throw out all of the information that does not matter such as carrer, car, and house and base there morals on principles. Of course without love we are merely unhappy in our carrers, car and house so from a moral standpoint we should only use love to judge ourselves.
You can only judge whether abortion is right or wrong for yourself no for me and not for any other woman. Okinrus what the hell do you know about love? How loving is it to make judgement about the lives of women you do not know? You make all these assumptions and have yet to give a meaningful answer to this one question: HOW DOES A WOMAN HAVING AN ABORTION INFRINGE ON YOUR RIGHTS? YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO STATE EMPHATICALLY WHAT WILL MAKE ANOTHER HAPPY OR TO DEFINE LOVE FOR EVERYONE ELSE!
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Okay Okinrus here are two sites regarding abortion.
http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortionanswers.html
This one here is about Margaret Sanger who pioneered the Planned Parenthood and birth control in the U.S
http://www.punkerslut.com/articles/margaretsanger.html
http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortionanswers.html
This one here is about Margaret Sanger who pioneered the Planned Parenthood and birth control in the U.S
http://www.punkerslut.com/articles/margaretsanger.html
I don't see what's wrong with the comparision because I'm not comparing with equality but the phychological effects. When someone is able to break their own assumptions on what human life is, they are clearly able to break in other places. You slip a little and only then do you fall. This is common sense and I was just using analogy so that you might understand.That statement tells me everything I need to know about you. Women+abortion=serial killers? You are brain dead Okinrus. You know nothing of womens lives and have no feeling for life only assumptions about life and people.
I'm not sure what your point is? By that definition, I would know no one intimate and then would be incapable to judge any moral decision that I make. Of course this is completely flawed. I've never known a murder either but know that is wrong. I've never been murdered either but know it's wrong. Of course I know that women who have abortions have feelings and so forth but when you step back and look at the facts, it's clearly wrong. I'm not counciling someone, I'm just debating whether it's wrong or right. Most of the blame is on the doctors who do abortion though and I think any law on abortion would punish the doctors and the women secondary.How many women have you known intimately that have chosen abortion?
You can't expect me to come to the conclusion that abortion is the killing of innocent life but remain silent?You can only judge whether abortion is right or wrong for yourself no for me and not for any other woman.
I'm not making judgement on women I don't know but on abortion. There's a huge difference yet you keep blatantly denying it. But even if I did pass judgement, who cares? Everyone I know has done something wrong even myself but I have no problem admiting what's wrong and then doing something about it.Okinrus what the hell do you know about love? How loving is it to make judgement about the lives of women you do not know?
Well let's say that I was aborted, it would then infringe on my rights. It's no different than killing all the five year olds and saying that because I don't know any five year olds I can't say it is wrong. Same argument that Hitler use -- kill all the Jews that you don't know because you just don't know. Continue on, if this is the best you can do, I will never change.You make all these assumptions and have yet to give a meaningful answer to this one question: HOW DOES A WOMAN HAVING AN ABORTION INFRINGE ON YOUR RIGHTS? YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO STATE EMPHATICALLY WHAT WILL MAKE ANOTHER HAPPY OR TO DEFINE LOVE FOR EVERYONE ELSE!
Ork,
You have no rights before you are born.
You have no rights before you are concieved.
You have no reason to think that fetuses are human.
If you are arguing about the 'potential' to be human, then by that argument christian women should have sex everytime they see a guy. After all, every time you abstain, you kill a child.
By what right do you have to try and stop someone else from having an abortion? What is your reasoning behind this?
You have no rights before you are born.
You have no rights before you are concieved.
You have no reason to think that fetuses are human.
If you are arguing about the 'potential' to be human, then by that argument christian women should have sex everytime they see a guy. After all, every time you abstain, you kill a child.
By what right do you have to try and stop someone else from having an abortion? What is your reasoning behind this?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Read the links I have two posts up.
Quote:
Well let's say that I was aborted, it would then infringe on my rights. It's no different than killing all the five year olds and saying that because I don't know any five year olds I can't say it is wrong. Same argument that Hitler use -- kill all the Jews that you don't know because you just don't know. Continue on, if this is the best you can do, I will never change.
If you had been aborted you would not have known and you would not have any rights. No one is asking you to change, you are free to think whatever you want about abortion, what concerns me is that you want to have a say on what happens in MY womb.
Quote:I'm not sure what your point is?
My point is that if you want to legally stop another from having an abortion you should at least have some knowledge about the people involved. You are just some young man, probably a virgin, probably without a girlfriend, still in college and without any real experience of life and other peoples lives. I don't care if you ever think abortion right, what I care about is your insistence that another should not have the right. But it is useless to continue debating with you. The majority of people in this country is not going to overturn abortion to appease people like you,
Quote:
I'm not making judgement on women I don't know but on abortion. There's a huge difference yet you keep blatantly denying it. But even if I did pass judgement, who cares? Everyone I know has done something wrong even myself but I have no problem admiting what's wrong and then doing something about it.
You are making a judgement if you think that the doctors and women should be punished in the legal system. Jesus man at least lose your viginity before deciding on a topic for those who have.
Quote:
Well let's say that I was aborted, it would then infringe on my rights. It's no different than killing all the five year olds and saying that because I don't know any five year olds I can't say it is wrong. Same argument that Hitler use -- kill all the Jews that you don't know because you just don't know. Continue on, if this is the best you can do, I will never change.
If you had been aborted you would not have known and you would not have any rights. No one is asking you to change, you are free to think whatever you want about abortion, what concerns me is that you want to have a say on what happens in MY womb.
Quote:I'm not sure what your point is?
My point is that if you want to legally stop another from having an abortion you should at least have some knowledge about the people involved. You are just some young man, probably a virgin, probably without a girlfriend, still in college and without any real experience of life and other peoples lives. I don't care if you ever think abortion right, what I care about is your insistence that another should not have the right. But it is useless to continue debating with you. The majority of people in this country is not going to overturn abortion to appease people like you,
Quote:
I'm not making judgement on women I don't know but on abortion. There's a huge difference yet you keep blatantly denying it. But even if I did pass judgement, who cares? Everyone I know has done something wrong even myself but I have no problem admiting what's wrong and then doing something about it.
You are making a judgement if you think that the doctors and women should be punished in the legal system. Jesus man at least lose your viginity before deciding on a topic for those who have.