Jan Ardena:
You haven been paying attention James.
Yes I have.
My argument is to show that the bible does not say or mean A+E were the first ever humans, from which all other humans come from. So far no one has shown that this is not the case.
See my posts on your pre-Adamite position earlier in the thread. You must have skipped over those.
Snakes don’t talk, James.
The bible doesn't say that they didn't talk back in the Garden of Eden days.
The Serpent was cursed to crawl on its belly.
Snakes already crawl on their belly.
The bible doesn't say that snakes crawled on their bellies
before God cursed the "serpent".
The only people who seriously think the bible means a talking snake, are atheist, secularists, modernists, religionists, and people who try to ridicule Christianity.
Perhaps now would be a good time for you to explain to all of us the difference between a "serpent" and a snake, as well as what the "serpent" in the Genesis story was, exactly. That serpent, by the way, definitely talked, as is clear from the bible.
Either your way, or the highway. Hey James?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
We believe in God, James.
It seems you cannot get your head around simple truth.
A silly and failed attempt to obfuscate once again, Jan. I've never once questioned that you believe in your God, and you know that. It's the single most visible aspect of your persona on this forum; you make sure everybody knows this, above all else. How could anybody here fail to get their head around it?
It's really easy to repeat the mantra of "I believe in God" over and over, and maybe to convince yourself that means something. But what do you really believe? What's the
content of your belief system?
You believe in the Big Guy in the Sky, okay, but then we get this thread where we find that you also believe in that the Genesis story is literally true, provided of course that you get to determine what it "literally" means.
Can you understand that I'm interested in probing behind that shield you erect, with your vague and shifting belief "in God"? In particular, I'm interested in discovering the empirical beliefs that follow from your metaphysical beliefs.
Your God belief is not that interesting to me in and of itself. When it leads you to rationalise facts like evolution away, however, then I become interested, particularly in the psychology and the mindset behind it all. I'm interested in the lengths you need to go to in order to maintain a minimum level of cognitive dissonance that leaves you comfortable in your belief system. I'm also interested in the lengths you are willing to go to in order to try to defend your beliefs in the face of common sense and widely accepted facts.
In this particular case, we have opened up another can of worms to discover that you actually need to fight mainstream Christian beliefs in order to prop up your own peculiar interpretation of the bible.
I don't know much about the Hari Krishnas, but do they all believe as you do?
Are atheists narcissists?
Where did that come from? I'm sure some of them are. What of it?
Can you alter the OP title from ‘We’re’ to ‘Were’?
I already did that long before you asked. Didn't you notice?
“Atheism” is very much at the heart of the misunderstanding of the bible, and as such, is not a topic change for me.
Nah. I think that atheists understand the bible just fine. They just don't believe that it's infallible, like you do. They recognise it was written by human beings, and that its main aims have nothing to do with historical accuracy or objective truth.
Have you noticed how the atheists cannot accept what the bible actually says, and means?
What it says is one thing. What it means is very much up for debate.
Your complaint is that atheists don't bow down to your preferred "meaning". That's all.
Have you noticed they adamantly go with the undocumented belief?
Like the majority of mainstream Christians do, you mean?
Do you think the bible should be studied in isolation, apart from the religions that take it as their foundational text? Surely how Christians or Jews interpret the bible is relevant to determining its meaning? No?
It’s funny how “smartness” is modernly asociated with “modern atheism”.
Is it? In that case, you have to wonder if there's some truth behind the stereotype.
Yet somehow they can’t bring themselves to admit that the bible doesn’t support to the first two people ever belief. Where’s your critical thinking now?
Most of the people who take the bible as their sacred text say the opposite to what you say - at least the ones who, like you, insist that the text is to be taken as the literal historical truth. On that basis, I think the problem of bringing yourself to admit things is more at your end than at theirs.
Atheism (not club or institute), lies at the heart of these attitudes.
Atheists don't get to determine the mainstream interpretation of the bible, though, if for no other reason than sheer force of numbers. So it's a bit precious of you to claim that atheists are the problem. You need to take your fight to the mainstream fundamentalist Christians. It seems your main argument is with them, not with atheists, on this.
The atheists keep wanting to take it there.
I’ve already stated we are not discussing whether or not it is literally true.
Then you'll agree that there are many different interpretations, and we can leave it there. We needn't worry about which interpretation is to be preferred because, not being literally true, nothing important hinges on the "correctness" of one person's interpretation of the story over another person's. Right?
We need to wake up from the belief, see what the bible actually states, then we can decide if we believe it is true. Are you down with that?
The problem is that "what the bible actually states" is inextricably tied up with the way you choose to interpret it. Interpretation fills in the gaps that aren't part of the literal text. Hence the endless arguments about the age of the Earth as "given in the bible", to take just one example.
What you
really need to do is to wake up from the belief and see the bible for what it is: a set of texts deliberately written and selected by human beings in order to convey a particular set of values, a particular version of history, a particular mythology. You get all bogged down because you start from the position that the bible must in some way be "true" to your religion. If it doesn't seem to be, on the face of it, then you selectively interpret it to match your beliefs. You ignore some parts completely. You enhance some parts and downplay others. You label some parts as metaphor or story, while insisting that other parts represent historical fact. You play with the meanings of words to make them say what you want them to say. You read between the lines, inserting your own beliefs into the gaps in the text.
The bible is no different than
Moby Dick. What is means is nowhere stated explicitly in the text. The reader extracts meaning. Different readers take away different things, although over time a majority consensus does tend to develop about "the meaning". There are always minority dissenters.
Moreover, if you're interested in historical truth, you need to investigate more widely than looking at one particular text. If you really want to know how human life developed on Earth, for example, it's no good just reading the bible, no matter how holy you think it is. It's not a complete record. It's not a complete explanation. It isn't even
correct about lots of things.
Similarly, if you want to know what whaling was like in the 1800s, you need to read more widely than
Moby Dick. It isn't a complete record. It's not correct about lots of things. No matter how great a novel you think it is, it isn't the be all and end all on the subject of whaling.