We would never wish anything so horrible on anyone.

Mind Over Matter

Registered Senior Member
The following was posted by an atheist on another thread and I was so intrigued by it that I felt is was worth it's own thread.

And yet you want me to burn in hell for all eternity.
No Christian would say that. I have never heard one true Christian say they wanted atheists to burn in hell. Perhaps they warns unbelievers about hell.
However, warning someone is not the same as wanting.
We Christians would never wish anything so horrible on anyone. We wish to save everybody from eternal damnation


For a document of the Second Vatican Council about "atheism" I found the following:

Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion (GS 19).

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

This section implies that the culpability for atheism is not necessarily entirely the individual atheist's. To the extent that belief in God has been made impossible for him by others, there may be some mitigation for his culpability for unbelief. For the atheist, ultimately we must trust that even he too is not beyond the reach of God's mercy if he strives to live morally.

The second great commandment is love of neighbor and Christ said of those who serve others, even if they do not explicitly do it for Christ's own sake:

Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?" And the King will answer them, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me" (Matt. 25:37-40).

So what say you. Can atheists be saved?
 
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acording to mum who is a religion coidinator (as well as a teacher) in the catholic system the current pope and the rest of the current hierarchy of the church is trying to undo vactican 2
 
My friend of over 60 years is an ordained minister and I've helped he and his family out on many occasions but he never tries to convert me to his "belief" which is why I still get along with him to this day. He knows that I'm an atheist but just accepts me as I am never dwelling on what I believe. To bad everyone couldn't be that way.:shrug:
 
I have never heard one true Christian say they wanted atheists to burn in hell.

No true Scotsman, fallacy. Try again.

We Christians would never wish anything so horrible on anyone. We wish to save everybody from eternal damnation

It's just too damn bad that your god doesn't share your desire, if he did then no one would have to go to hell.
 
I never shut out god from my heart or dodged religious questions. And it's not erroneous doctrine that I object to, it's the standard doctrine.
 
We wish to save everybody from eternal damnation

Honestly, we'll be okay. Don't worry. To make it easier on your conscious, remember, your god made us this way. We can't help but be skeptical. I'm sure he gets that.
 
No Christian would say that. I have never heard one true Christian say they wanted atheists to burn in hell.
Of course they wouldn't:
burn-in-hell1.jpg

burn-in-hell-shirt.jpg

5070111934_4bf13821d7.jpg

Completely a figment of imagination, right?

Of course, that's nothing to do with the bible, is it?
Oh, wait:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
 
Like Texas right now . Wow . They are burning in hell fire . We did in 2000 , 2002 and 2003 I think . Our little hell fire close to town is out now . Rains came and put it out . Rain with out lightening . That is strange for this time of year . Idaho not so lucky and there smoke is coughing us out , Peewy cough cough . Smells like camp fire . Get the fake hog dogs . *Hebrew Nationals , Kiss . The only hot dog for Me.



Note: This is not a promotion for Israel, but rather I like the little bastards . There tasty . The Hot dogs silly not Israelis. The girls look tasty though


O.K. your all forgiven , Come one into the New Earth . Were it don't matter what your culture is , or the shade of your skin . Were we take the sick and hungry , The tired and the poor . Oh yeah I forgot ? Even though we put Miss Liberty up on a pedestal as a banner for the world to see we don't really mean it . I guess when it comes down to it words mean nothing . Prattle

Maybe it is the red tape . That be the problem . To much of it . Drowning in a sea of red tape . Human intervention is drowning in a sea of red tape . Blood tape . Dark red blood tape
 
Just noticed this in the OP:
Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame;
What arrant (and arrogant) bollocks.
 
The following was posted by an atheist on another thread and I was so intrigued by it that I felt is was worth it's own thread.

Signal isn't an atheist. She would be more aptly characterized as an agnostic theist, or at the very least an agnostic.

This section implies that the culpability for atheism is not necessarily entirely the individual atheist's. To the extent that belief in God has been made impossible for him by others, there may be some mitigation for his culpability for unbelief. For the atheist, ultimately we must trust that even he too is not beyond the reach of God's mercy if he strives to live morally.

I don't like to carry on about all the money I donate to good causes, the fact that I make very significant personal sacrifices to care for my aging Grandmother, the fact that I'm a very generous and not very materialistic person, that I'm open, honest, supportive, genuinely give a shit about a lot of things and believe that if one should have any goal in life it should be to strive to become a better person. I don't like to carry on about it because 1) I believe that this should be the default standard anyway and 2) because I also have many faults. I can be selfish, dismissive, irritable, judgmental and exhibit a number of other not-so-desirable traits. But I believe that what truly defines a person is the path that they are making a genuine effort to remain on, in spite of their weaknesses.

In this way I am not essentially different from any good-hearted theist. In fact, as is rather obvious, theists themselves (collectively at least) can not be upheld as shining beacons of morality for the rest of us to emulate. My overarching point here is simply that I do not see the superior degree of basic goodness in religion that religion itself suggests that one should expect to find. To put it simply, theists don't seem to be "better" people at all.

So what it really all seems to boil down to then, at least in the case of something like Christianity anyway, is faith in God. You have it. I don't. All other things being equal (which they often are, or close enough anyway), that is the only fundamental difference between someone who is said to be "saved" and someone who isn't. Let's explore some of the implications of this.

If I can be punished for lacking faith, then that implies that the fault lies with me. But how can I legitimately be held accountable for a lack of faith when, from my perspective at least, all the evidence in the world points to religion being nothing more than a man-made phenomenon; a collection of different attempts to make sense of the world thousands of years ago when we barely knew the first thing about it? Further, the provision of profoundly convincing positive evidence is certainly not without precedent in scripture itself, so the argument that it would somehow not be appropriate falls flat on it's face. Further still, since when does actually knowing that someone exists for a fact impede one's ability to love them? I mean seriously, can you really legitimately argue that you can no longer "choose" to continue to love and/or devote yourself to someone (let's talk non-romantic love here) because you have proof positive of their existence? Of course you can't. It's absurd.

A common assertion of theists however is that the real reason that atheists lack faith is not because of some benign philosophical difficulty, but because they are so steeped in sin, and so attached to a worldly existence, that they are blind and/or just don't want to give it up. It is even further suggested that it's not really a lack of faith at all, but an outright rejection. Of course this doesn't gel too well with the reality that there are plenty of people who are clearly just as steeped in sin, and attached to their worldly existence, yet still profess faith. Therefore I really don't think that this is a particularly insightful corollary if God is in fact real. Faith (or lack thereof) just really doesn't seem to be significantly linked to morality, or even worldliness.

To bring this to a close, if there is a God, and he/she/it condemns me to an eternally torturous existence just because I didn't see how it was possible to legitimately reach the conclusion that he/she/it was in fact real, then so be it. Contrary to what many theists might preach, it really seems completely beyond my control, not to mention profoundly unjust. As Yazata once said, it would be the antithesis of mercy.

Now, let's sit back and watch the theists dismiss what I will forever maintain has been my genuine honesty as nothing more than the ramblings of someone who is desperately trying to justify their rejection of God.
 
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No Christian would say that. I have never heard one true Christian say they wanted atheists to burn in hell. Perhaps they warns unbelievers about hell.
However, warning someone is not the same as wanting.
We Christians would never wish anything so horrible on anyone. We wish to save everybody from eternal damnation...

I think that's a load of crap. Even on this forum, we have seen death threats against atheists that warranted investigation by the Canadian police! I think many Christians absolutely LOVE to say that other people are going to burn in hell. That reinforces their idea that they won't burn in hell, so it gives them a feeling of peace.
 
Honestly, we'll be okay. Don't worry. To make it easier on your conscious, remember, your god made us this way. We can't help but be skeptical. I'm sure he gets that.

That is quoted in bible scripture too. God hardened Pharaohs heart . New Testament expands on this too. When a person understands that concept they become a lot less judgmental of other peoples views . I had a pretty hard heart my self . A fuck everybody attitude , Get out of my way , your slowing down my production , shut the fuck up , Me Me Me Go Go Go , get out of the way . Then I had my confrontation with Blackfoot with the red rock he gave Me and right there that very minute my hardened heart was plucked out of Me . My black heart was ripped out and lay dead on arrival. It really displaced Me . My mind is still disoriented from it . Crying helps Me . I doubt it does to much for out side influence . Maybe a few that see my swollen eyes of discontent of the way things are , yet stand with the hope that all would learn the meaning of mercy me , god almighty, help us all
 
I have never heard one true Christian say they wanted atheists to burn in hell.
No true Scotsman, fallacy. Try again.

No, the sentence you quoted is not an example of the No true Scotsman fallacy.

No true triangle has four angles
is not a NTS fallacy.

There are definitions of what a Christian is; part of that is to not wish harm upon anyone.


I never shut out god from my heart or dodged religious questions. And it's not erroneous doctrine that I object to, it's the standard doctrine.

Uh, if only it would be clear which the standard ones are, and which the erroneous ones!
 
Then why do you believe in a god who will torture the majority of people in hell for all eternity, with no chance of redemption?

Actually it is not God who tortures the people. It is themselves. The people who acually end up in hell ae the types that make themselves and everyone around them miserable. There is no place outside of God;s Grace, just people unwilling to accept it.

For a good analogy, Both Heaven and Hell is a massive Banquet but nobpdy can bring the food to their mouth, In hell everyone desperately tries to feed themselves. In heaven everyone feeds each other.
 
@Signal --

You know, I'm looking in the dictionary, and I'm finding absolutely nothing about not wishing harm on others. I'm seeing "one who follows the teachings of Jesus", but didn't Jesus teach that he came to set father against son, mother against daughter, brother against brother? Didn't the doctrine of hell originate with Jesus in the first place? I'm pretty sure that's covered under "wishing harm on others". That's the thing about the teachings of Jesus, and the bible in general, it can be used to support literally anything(from the Crusades to charity towards the poor).

Mind Over Matter, like the overwhelming majority of christians, is committing the fallacy of confirmation bias and is only paying attention to the peaceful messages that Jesus preached while ignoring the violent and downright evil ones. It's the same thing that fundie muslims do when they focus only on the violence of the koran and not the peaceful stuff in it.
 
Of course they wouldn't:
burn-in-hell1.jpg


etc.

Technically, those are warnings, not necessarily wishes for eternal damnation.

Some theists can be rather dramatic in their presentation of their religious teachings.

Although one has to wonder how come they put in so much ire into that ...


To clarify things, I think it is important to push the theist to the point that he answers, with merely a Yes or a No, questions like:
Are you an authoritative representative of God?
Is what you say as authoritative as if God Himself said it?
 
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