Was Cho Seung-hui decision rational or irrational?

[Saquist]

It's not entirely subjective...It is based on established societal norms...It's not as though we can not make a determination of behavior.

 

[Jeremyhfht]

Think about subjectivity, though. Social "norms" differ from culture to culture. They are subjective to each culture and thought pattern.

 

[Read-Only]

Emphasis on the Faulty Reasoning Process. Which my post claims the people that called the guy "irrational" have.

Rationality is a purely subjective thing. As humans are subjective beings, they cannot think 100% objectively (as their prior ideas make it subjective).

Therefore, it is irrational to claim YOUR rationality is more rational then his. As you can't even question it, since he's dead.

Thus, it's irrational to call his reasoning irrational. Since you don't even know what his reasoning was, for one.



People that express violent tendancies tend to leave hints. These hints mean that he wanted his issues resolved. Once again, as I said in a past thread, Family members tend to be the least observing.



To you it is not, as my explanation shows. Furthermore, you are assuming his actions, based on little to no evidence. I rebuke it on the clause that they're baseless assumptions.

Similarly, I will try not to make statements based on similar baseless assumptions, if you spot them do point them out.



Assumption, assumption, more assumptions. I know of no psychology case where this happens without provocation. And in those cases, parts of them do not want it.

Very sorry but you are totally wrong.


As to assumptions, you're quite wrong again - he left plenty of evidence as to how faulty his mental processes were. So we don't need to be able to question him on that. As a minor point, you might also consider that fully rational people do not stalk others. And we have clear evidence that he did that also.

If we were to use your criteria for irrational behavor (read that as mentally imbalanced or possessing a mental defect) there would be NO irrational people in the entire world!! You need to carefully consider what you're saying.

 

[Jeremyhfht]

Very sorry but you are totally wrong.

I did not claim to be perfectly correct, nor that you were perfectly wrong. But saying that I am "totally wrong" on the premise that you are totally correct, is not logical.

Your statements hold weight Only if subjectivity is ignored. If you need me to explain my model of human-subjective nature, do PM me. As then you might understand my argument.

As to assumptions, you're quite wrong again - he left plenty of evidence as to how faulty his mental processes were.

His evidence merely points to his feelings. Not what he was thinking completely. He showed great hate for many things, but he did not tell the basis of that hate. As far as I know, anyway.

Overall, you cannot assume anything from the video's, other then what the video's tell you, and what his emotions and such show. To do so would be illogical.

claiming he was of faulty mind is subjective to your thinking. This is why it's illogical to claim he was in a faulty mindset.

So we don't need to be able to question him on that. As a minor point, you might also consider that fully rational people do not stalk others. And we have clear evidence that he did that also.

Link? The news articles I keep reading about it do not say that.

Another thing, is that you've basically called every policemen that stalks a criminal a psycho. Good job.

Need I repeat myself? Correlation. Does not. Imply. Causation.

If we were to use your criteria for irrational behavor (read that as mentally imbalanced or possessing a mental defect) there would be NO irrational people in the entire world!!

Quite the opposite. I merely do not view people with psychological issues as irrational. In fact many are very brilliant. I do not view them as irrational, because it's irrational to do so (as I explained).

There are a good deal of irrational people in the world. The fact you assume my criteria would mean there wouldn't be any...shows an utter ignorance of what my criteria is.

You need to carefully consider what you're saying.

I could say the same for you.

 

[Read-Only]

I did not claim to be perfectly correct, nor that you were perfectly wrong. But saying that I am "totally wrong" on the premise that you are totally correct, is not logical.

Your statements hold weight Only if subjectivity is ignored. If you need me to explain my model of human-subjective nature, do PM me. As then you might understand my argument.



His evidence merely points to his feelings. Not what he was thinking completely. He showed great hate for many things, but he did not tell the basis of that hate. As far as I know, anyway.

Overall, you cannot assume anything from the video's, other then what the video's tell you, and what his emotions and such show. To do so would be illogical.

claiming he was of faulty mind is subjective to your thinking. This is why it's illogical to claim he was in a faulty mindset.



Link? The news articles I keep reading about it do not say that.

Another thing, is that you've basically called every policemen that stalks a criminal a psycho. Good job.

Need I repeat myself? Correlation. Does not. Imply. Causation.



Quite the opposite. I merely do not view people with psychological issues as irrational. In fact many are very brilliant. I do not view them as irrational, because it's irrational to do so (as I explained).

There are a good deal of irrational people in the world. The fact you assume my criteria would mean there wouldn't be any...shows an utter ignorance of what my criteria is.



I could say the same for you.

Oh, come now! One would get the distinct impression that you know very little about basic psychology, society and people in general. Or have you just not gotten that far in school yet? I was originally thinking you were about 20 - 25 but I'm beginning to feel that I was wrong about that.

As to his stalking the two girls, where in the world have you been??? It's been included in practically every news story I've heard or read! But in a effort to catch you up with the rest of us, there's a brief mention of it right at the top of this page: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18248374/page/2/

 

[Jeremyhfht]

Oh, come now! One would get the distinct impression that you know very little about basic psychology, society and people in general. Or have you just not gotten that far in school yet? I was originally thinking you were about 20 - 25 but I'm beginning to feel that I was wrong about that.

Ad-hominem. This adds nothing to the discussion, and attacks me on a personal level.

You have made no points at all.

As to his stalking the two girls, where in the world have you been? It's been included in practically every news story I've heard or read! But in a effort to catch you up with the rest of us, there's a brief mention of it right at the top of this page: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18248374/page/2/

I see. I read BBC rather than MSNBC. BBC said that two girls reported him for bad behavior towards them (something like that).

I heard nothing of stalking.

 

[Read-Only]

Ad-hominem. This adds nothing to the discussion, and attacks me on a personal level.

Not in the least. It's just that I'm beginning to wonder about what qualifications you have to be making such bold and rather sensless statements. That's generally the hallmark of the young and not well educated (yet). And there's nothing wrong with being young, either. It's just that they should spend more time asking and studying rather than stating.

 

[darksidZz]

Kissy Kissy Makes Me Happy

 

[Jeremyhfht]

Not in the least. It's just that I'm beginning to wonder about what qualifications you have to be making such bold and rather sensless statements. That's generally the hallmark of the young and not well educated (yet). And there's nothing wrong with being young, either. It's just that they should spend more time asking and studying rather than stating.

Another personal attack that adds nothing to the conversation.

Troll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

[peta9]

Not in the least. It's just that I'm beginning to wonder about what qualifications you have to be making such bold and rather sensless statements. That's generally the hallmark of the young and not well educated (yet). And there's nothing wrong with being young, either. It's just that they should spend more time asking and studying rather than stating.

For someone who purports to be well-educated and have life experience, you sure have shallow perception.

I guess it never occured to you that his behavior might also be due to his disability and emotional development of a child. After all, he had an imaginary girlfriend. You make it sound as if it was completely malicious.

You also can't seem to read between the lines and take everything at face value. Further information has leaked that his family purposefully isolated themselves, were ashamed of Cho, did not really seek help for him, and his sister did not even talk of her family either. The korean-american community called them a "ghost" and mentioned how "strange" it is for a family to not be known at all. Also even cruel or nonloving families are good at appearing otherwise.

His father always bragged about his daughter who attended Princeton, never mentioning a word of Cho or anything else. They thrust this autistic kid into the world to cope on his own and those were the consequences.

Kim Yang Soon, a great-aunt in Korea, said Cho's mother told her the boy had autism. After the family immigrated to the United States in 1992, when Cho was 8, Kim would call his mother and ask how the boy was doing. "She only talked about her daughter," Kim said. "We knew something was wrong."(shame)
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Because Cho did well in school, his mother did not seem very determined to get treatment for him, Kim added.

It is unknown what, if any, help the parents sought for their son before he attended Virginia Tech, where this week Cho killed 32 schoolmates and teachers. The Chos left their home in western Fairfax County the day of the shootings and are staying at an undisclosed location. Only a few friends are in contact with the family, and most have declined to talk, upon the Chos' request.

Before Monday, when Cho went on his shooting rampage, the family's story was not so different from that of other Korean immigrants.

Seung Tae Cho and his wife, Hyang In, told friends they came to America for the sake of their children's education. They settled in a townhouse in Centreville near good public schools. The father worked long hours pressing pants at a dry cleaner in Manassas. The mother occasionally went to church.

And when their firstborn, Sun Kyung, got into Princeton in 1999, it seemed as if all their sacrifices had paid off. The parents, once adrift in poverty in South Korea, now had an anchor for the good life in America through their Ivy League daughter.

Beyond these broad brush strokes of Cho's life in Fairfax, only bits and pieces have emerged from relatives. The local ethnic organizations that typically gather Korean immigrants -- churches, social clubs and civic associations -- say the Chos were largely unknown and disconnected in the Washington area, which is unusual for the tight-knit community.

"They're like ghosts," said Ron Kim of the Korean-American Dry Cleaners Association of Greater Washington. "It is really strange for a family not to be known."


Other students recalled that he carried violent writings in his notebooks. He wore "geeky" clothes, not stylish or popular, the kind his parents might have picked out, Linton recalled.

When Cho was a sophomore, he was a member of the Westfield High School Science Club, according to the school's 2001 yearbook. In his sophomore and junior year portraits, he is dressed identically: light-colored T-shirt with a plaid button-down shirt on top.

In Cho's senior year, neither his name nor his picture appears anywhere in the yearbook.

Cho's isolation as a youth may have been exacerbated by the strains of the Korean immigrant life, sociologists said. Parents, working one or two jobs to provide for their families, often have little time to spend with their children, let alone have meaningful talks with them. Cultural stigmas make it difficult to deal with the mental illness or emotional stress of a child.

"Korean immigrants would feel shame," said Sang Lee, director of the Asian American Program at Princeton Theological Seminary. "There would be some reluctance and some hesitancy in admitting [a mental illness] and openly seeing a doctor."

Josephine Kim, a professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, said the Korean American community should not feel responsible for an incident it had nothing to do with. Instead, it should reexamine how it addresses mental health issues, she said.

"Here is this person at Virginia Tech who may have been an adult academically, but emotionally and socially, he's clearly a child who's been stunted," said Kim, who is also a licensed mental health professional. "He didn't know how to deal with people. He lived in pure isolation."

Moon Hee Lee, one of his bosses there, said the elder Cho never took more than a day off at a time and worked Monday through Saturday.

"He was working too hard, just working, working," she said.

But during lunch breaks, over Korean meals, he would often boast of his daughter. "He was very proud of her. He always talked about her," she said.

About almost anything else, she said, the family remained quiet.

Others in the local Korean community, including pastors of the largest Korean churches, civic leaders and members of the dry cleaners association, examined their records and talked to associates to see whether the Chos had any relationship with their groups. So far, none has been found.

Some classmates at Princeton said they couldn't remember Sun Kyung Cho, the killer's sister, ever talking about her family.

Sun Kyung, who now works as a contractor for the State Department, was part of a 25-member "food co-op," or eating club, during her senior year, where students met for dinner every night and often stayed for hours talking about current events and philosophical issues. Those in the club described her as a driven and focused student.

Francis Pickering, who was in the same eating club, said Sun-Kyung was a "very, very hard worker" who seemed to keep to herself, seldom discussing her family or much about herself.

Another friend said this week that he was surprised to learn that she had a brother, as she rarely, if ever, mentioned her family.
In a telephone interview, the friend spoke anonymously because Sun Kyung had passed a message through Princeton's Manna Christian Fellowship asking her friends not to talk to the media. Others added that the family appeared to struggle with the media frenzy and what to say publicly before finally issuing the statement through Raleigh, N.C., lawyer Wade Smith.

Some relatives said the family has kept its distance even from them.

Sung Ryol Cho, an uncle who runs a dry cleaner in Anne Arundel County, said he hasn't talked to the family in years. His wife said she has tried to call them this week but has received no response.

"We don't know where they are," she said. "We hope they are okay."

It's suspicious to me and my instincts are usually right on. I think this family was ashamed of Cho, did not love him, did not care to seek help much, was intolerant of any disability which would put a strain on him and sense of never living up or being accepted by his family deep inside. I think they are a bad family and no wonder poor Cho was desperately seeking love or doing attention-getting strange confused pranks. Poor baby, i hope he is in a better place. I can't blame him entirely for what he did. he was like a disturbed child, the psychologist said so. You can be one mental age and another emotional one, but the emotional age is what drives your personality and what you decide to do.

I think they were ashamed and all they cared about was outward appearance and shallow success!! while Cho suffered emotionally starving for real love, while being misunderstood or rejected his peers! That and a disability which affects your personality would drive anybody over the edge from sheer deep despair and eventual hatred of society

 

[Jeremyhfht]

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[peta9]

Report:Washingon--A platoon of elite Marine Special Operation troops based in North Carolina reacted with "excessive force" after an ambush in Afghanistan last month, opening fire on pedestrians and civilian vehicles along a 10-mile stretch of road and killing 12 people--including a 4-year-old-girl, a 1-year-old-boy and three elderly villagers--an human rights commission says in a report.

Let's shoot these evil fucking monsters. Americans are hypocrites just like any hypocrite. They've got blood on their hands too, they are just pissed it was their own that got shot. Right now as I type their are more murders going on in America than what Cho did. This is just publicized because it is a school shooting and the number of people he killed. Still killing is killing.

 

[Saquist]

Think about subjectivity, though. Social "norms" differ from culture to culture. They are subjective to each culture and thought pattern.

Yet it's not a matter of subjectivity within the culture...
That's the only reasoning relevent when determining sanity and rationality.
It is also relevant to consider if the subject in question is fulling informed of the cultural norms...norms with which we establish codes of behavior which laws are derived.

 

[Jeremyhfht]

Yet it's not a matter of subjectivity within the culture...

How is it not? Cultures are subjective.

That's the only reasoning relevent when determining sanity and rationality.

Sanity and rationality are different. One can have immense logic capability, but still be considered insane.

It is also relevant to consider if the subject in question is fulling informed of the cultural norms...norms with which we establish codes of behavior which laws are derived.

If it was his mental stability? Yes.

Rationality/irrationality? No. That's my point. This poll is somewhat poorly organized.

 

[darksidZz]

I'm tired of hearing how the polls aren't good, including mine. Why don't you f**king come up with a better one if you want and start your own threads, really I am sick of this stuff, Yes an no answers are normal in a poll, how many choices you guys guys want when there's a determination to be made, I feel frustrated

What you want:

Rational - Based on his perspective
Rational - Based on societies perspective
Irrational - Based on his perspective
Irrational - Based on societies perspective
etc.

 

[fadingCaptain]

meta,
"He fought back against a population that was killing him. What did you expect?"

Please explain how the people he shot were killing him. Complete bullshit.

dragon,
"Conclusion: Everything in this world is rational"

Congrats, you just voided the term "irrational" from any meaning. Perhaps you'd like to call Webster's and inform them?

 

[Read-Only]

For someone who purports to be well-educated and have life experience, you sure have shallow perception.

I guess it never occured to you that his behavior might also be due to his disability and emotional development of a child. After all, he had an imaginary girlfriend. You make it sound as if it was completely malicious.

My perception is actually quite broad, thank you. And I've NO doubt at all that his parents contributed to his problem! Primarily through inaction and giving him little or no attention or support.

And speaking of perception, you seem to not perceive that autistic people RARELY ever hurt anyone! Quite the opposite - their response is to run away and hide. This deranged individual had a different problem entirely.

Tell you what, since you seem so overly concerned with him: how about actually DOING something with your concern BESIDES just whining and running off at the mouth about it??? There are plenty of young kids very much like him (mentally disturbed, withdrawn, ignored, paranoid - even homicidal) locked away today. Why don't you take at least ONE of them under your wing and help them? If you were to do that, it would change my opinion of you considerably!!!!!!!

 

[Jeremyhfht]

I am. I'm going to college to be a psychologist.

Qed. *sips tea*

P.S: This is another appeal to emotions, combined with an ad-hom. The content of your post is ridiculous.

 

[peta9]

My perception is actually quite broad, thank you. And I've NO doubt at all that his parents contributed to his problem! Primarily through inaction and giving him little or no attention or support.

And speaking of perception, you seem to not perceive that autistic people RARELY ever hurt anyone! Quite the opposite - their response is to run away and hide. This deranged individual had a different problem entirely.

Tell you what, since you seem so overly concerned with him: how about actually DOING something with your concern BESIDES just whining and running off at the mouth about it??? There are plenty of young kids very much like him (mentally disturbed, withdrawn, ignored, paranoid - even homicidal) locked away today. Why don't you take at least ONE of them under your wing and help them? If you were to do that, it would change my opinion of you considerably!!!!!!!

Wow, I think you need to take medication, you've got some screws loose or you're from a nuthouse.

Idiot, he could have had more than one disability or disorder. And there are exceptions to every case.

You are out of line here as my actions in life or what I say isn't up to you to dictate. I don't have to prove myself to you or anyone because your opinion of me is irrevelant. You are a stranger and a nobody. I can talk, whine, rant about anything I want on this forum with moderator consent. Who the hell are you to tell someone what to do. Do it yourself, you confused lunatic.

 

[Read-Only]

Wow, I think you need to take medication, you've got some screws loose or you're from a nuthouse.

Idiot, he could have had more than one disability or disorder. And there are exceptions to every case.

You are out of line here as my actions in life or what I say isn't up to you to dictate. I don't have to prove myself to you or anyone because your opinion of me is irrevelant. You are a stranger and a nobody. I can talk, whine, rant about anything I want on this forum with moderator consent. Who the hell are you to tell someone what to do. Do it yourself, you confused lunatic.

Nope, I don't need any of the above and my mental health is quite fine, thank you.

Sure, you can say anything you like (so can I) with the same consent. But it's YOU that's raving about the loss of your dear idiot - not me. Therefore your talk is just that - ONLY talk. On the other hand, I've taken in two children over the years that couldn't bear life with their parents. They weren't mentally unstable in any way, just needed a safe haven form those who's only interest was themselves - at the expense of their own kids.

So while you do NOTHING but blab, blab, blab about how bad THAT fool had it, you also do nothing to help those that need it. That's the precise definition of a loud-mouthed busybody old hypocrite. (Do you need to go look up that big word????)

So, again, for all of your expressed concern for that one idiot, you bring yourself across as almost a big a fool as he was. Now I know not to believe a single thing you've said here in support of him!!!!!!!!