Oh, the rituals they must endure!
War in Heaven (No Atheists)
- Thread starter lixluke
- Start date
SkinWalker said:
The point I was making is that, instead of taking an objective stance on the subject and studying it *as is*, like you should as a scientist, you continually refer to religions as "cults" (knowing full well that it carries a negative connotation), and stating that people are "afflicted" by it. You must be crazy if you think that those kinds of statements are unbiased, because they clearly show that you have a negative view of religion, and moreover, you don't try to hide that negative feeling when making observations of religion. The point is, when you make observations of religion it sounds as if you are studying it with the goal of showing it's falsehood or proving that people who practice it are somehow sick or stupid, and at the same time you claim objectivity and fairness as a scientist when you are showing neither.
The reason why I have a problem with the definition that you usually offer is that, if you actually understood the thinking in a very wide variety of religions, you would know that they do not all include belief in the "supernatural", or even "gods", in essence. You are using as your template Western religions only, and this is a very shortsighted way of viewing such a broad subject. For example, in Eastern and Native American religions, there is no "supernatural". The things that you would term beyond nature or above nature are actually all a part of nature, in fact they are considered very natural. You are assuming that all religions offer a dualistic view of existence, and this is completely false and shows that you haven't even put effort into understanding religion from the point of view of the religious, which you must in order to gain a full view of it. I don't even think you are interested in doing that, only in trying to show that any kind of religious practice is intellectually low.
I'll offer another definition of religion, this time from Webster:
Religion, n. 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of some superhuman agency or agencies, usu. involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code for the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects. 3. the body of person adhereing to a particular set of beliefs and practices. 4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc. 5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. 6. something a person believes in and follows devotedly.
I'm well-versed in both Eastern and Native American religions (more so with the latter) and, while I'll agree that the dualistic nature of Native Am. religions are more subdued -there is no separation of the sacred and profane, for instance- there still exists a supernatural as there does with Eastern religions.
Perhaps you can offer a specific example of an Eastern, Western, or aboriginal religion in which supernatural agency is absent. Otherwise, it would seem that the definition I've offered from Dennett stands.
Perhaps you can offer a specific example of an Eastern, Western, or aboriginal religion in which supernatural agency is absent. Otherwise, it would seem that the definition I've offered from Dennett stands.
Crunchy Cat said:
Actually that is what is meant by state religion.
Yes but they are support the atheism which is a religion as well. Now maybe I was not clear. The students wanted to put up the decorations. Not the school money, but student money. But we weren't even allowed to say "Merry Christmas"
First, only the truly ignorant or those in denial will say "atheism is a religion" since its very clear that atheism means without deities. Second, while the alleged "banning of xmas" at your school would certainly be going to far (I suspect what really occurred was nativity scenes and the like were restricted), it must be remembered that public schools get their funding from tax dollars. Taxes are paid by more than just christians (they tax the jewish, muslims, hindus, buddhists, atheists and agnostics alike), so it isn't appropriate nor is it constitutional to use tax money to promote a specific religious cult over all others.
What's the name of your school and the county and state?
What's the name of your school and the county and state?
C
charles cure
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TW Scott said:
you seem to misunderstand how that works. what Cat is saying is right. establishing a state religion is to do something along the lines of passing a law that says that everyone in the United States must be a christian, must go to the christian church, and cannot avow themselves to other religions. Preferring a religion however, is different. for example, you prefer religion when you buy a christmas tree with taxpayer money and put it up in city hall, without referencing any other religion's holidays for the whole year in any way. this is true regardless of whether there is only 1 jew and 1 muslim and 1 atheist in a city of 5 million. it's a publicly funded act of preference, yet not an establishment per se.
atheism is not a religion, it is non-belief in any religion. go ahead, try to say what atheists believe. do they believe that there is no god? i suppose, in the same way that people believe that there are no such things as unicorns and the tooth fairy. in fact, atheism is only defined by its lack of belief in a diety and lack of adherence to a particular religious faith. thats it. you can't favor it as a belief, because it isn't one.
that said, i think not being able to say merry christmas in school is taking it a bit far. i think you should be able to say merry christmas anywhere, whether in a public place or not. you should also be allowed to say happy kwannza, happy _____________ (insert name of holiday here) ...etc. that's freedom of speech, not preference to religion. however, the student money is (presumably) collected from all of the students. if it were used to put up christmas decorations, but there was one jewish kid in the class who gave money also, where are his religious holiday decorations? or the 1 muslim kid? do you give them back their money and say "sorry but you don't have enough money for decorations so tough shit" or do you then attempt to level the playing field by giving him money? well, you know what the solution is? seperation of church and state. why not have a policy against decorations in a public place so that this very problem never arises. people can still celebrate their holidays in private and decorate their own houses...etc. why does it have to be everywhere?
TW Scott said:
There is a difference between directive and preference and that difference does more than prevent a 'state religion'.
TW Scott said:
Atheism is rejection of the claim 'God exists' as being true. Religion is a method of human relationships. Atheism is therefore not a religion. Regarding the school, as long as the premesis is government owned the seperation of church and state has to exist. If students were forbidden to say "Merry Christams" then that's a violation of free speech. If students were declined special school time / facilities / resources to say "Merry Christmas" then that's an upholding of the church/state seperation.
Whatever you may think it sounds like, the point is to make sure 'it' is correct.Hapsburg said:
What is the point of saying 'it' sounds like this or that when we have not verified what 'it' is.
The oblective of this thread is to get find out what 'it' is.
I simply posted what I know of what happened. I'm not sure if there is anything different or any more to it.
And saying things like this is supposed to make us think you're anything but a moron? If you'd just read mine and others posts a bit more carefully, you'd see that all we are asking for is a bit of substance to back up the claims of the religious. Lacking that, a simple admission that it's all just a fantasy you happen to enjoy. Simple, really.ggazoo said:
Good novel? I read through that, and found the narrative horribly written. I am interested in the plot though, so I'll probably end up trgdging myself through the narrative just to get the story then gauge my eye balls out afterward.Gordon said:
You're having fun with this, aren't you, cow skull?cool skill said:
Wait, I'm going to try Mr. Skills approach:cool skill said:
Theists are just a bunch of crazy sooperdooperfanatics. Just read their posts for support of my claim. They are so silly they don't even realize how silly they are.
