Virgins anyone???

[Michael]

Oh and western scholars themselves have vindicated the Muslim scholars - the "lies" you attribute to the Muslims actually came from those western scholars who rejected anything that came from the "filthy Moors"

I didn't say "lies" I said "myths" and I didn't say anything about "filthy moors" either. Although speaking of filth - I remember there was a British Muslim who used to post here called Proud Syrian who posted a litany about filthy Coptics. Is that what you are talking about?

As for Plato - as I said, from Greek to Arabic. The reset are from other languages into Arabic. If you are attempting to suggest Arabs saved Greek Philosophy (something that was already lost) then I must assume you are talking about the Greek writing??? If not then you are simply referring to the translations made in Syriac by Christians and in Hebrew by Jews. Which has nothing to do at all with Islam.

Lastly, don't you find it funny? Arabs invade, conquer, loot monasteries and libraries, steal ancient manuscripts and you call it preservation?!?

What the hell kind of logic is that?

Arabs destroyed a LOT of the culture on the Eastern Mediterranean Sea - as you can see by Baghdad when an army come to town things usually turn to shit for awhile. This is something you seem to fail to acknowledge. SAM's view of Arab conquest is similar to Sandy's view of Americans saving Baghdad or Jew's defending themselves against Palestinians. Skewed to say the least.

I suppose if the Mongolians had scurried off with the library of Baghdad and forced Shamanism onto the Middle East you'd be telling us all about how Ghangus was the Last Prophet and "Shamanism" preserved Greek literature and inspired the European reawakening.

Surely you can see how absurd such an argument is?



Venice formed the strongest mercantile city-state since Rome, loots Constantinople, becomes fat and rich, stamps the Gold standard (used for 600 years all across the middle east and Europe - Venetian coins were even in circulation in China and India). They supported the artists - They sparked the reawakening. I have no idea how you can come to the conclusion it's has anything to do with an Arab religion? :bugeye:

Heck, the best parts of Islam pointed out to me often seem to be found in Europe! In Spain to be exact. How Ironic, the furthest point away from the center of "Islam" - where the Arabic culture holds the least influence and this is pointed to me again and again as the best of Islam :bugeye:

Why do you suppose that is???

The point stands: Almost all of Aristotle and all of Plato was already translated into Latin from the Greek not from the Arabic and what little there was was translated by Christians and Jews. Like I said - get the book, open it and read it. In there you will find that Greek Philosophy degenerated long before Islam. The mistake the Islamic philosophers made was that what they had stolen - those pretty packages labeled 'Plato' and 'Aristotle' were in reality Plotinus, Porphyry, and Proclus. They thought they were getting Aristotelianism, but they got Neoplatonism, which is neither Platonic nor Aristotelian. THAT was the whole point I had tried to make. You keep trying to tell me that Islam saved some that was LONG gone and in reality NEVER found! After their Polis was gone Greeks philosophy stagnated and that's the fact of it. The Athenian fire died out and that was that. The world belonged to Rome. So I have NO IDEA where you are getting this idea that Islam saved Greek Philosophy and transported it to Europe to spark the renaissance. It's like you are taking this hypothesis you so desperately want to believe - Islam saved the West, and then try to construe this magical history to make it true. Well even the beginning part isn't true. Hellenism was dead and gone.

Michael

 

[SnakeLord]

Probably not very far, but then, there was a time not 60 something years ago when demanding self determination from a Brit in your own country would result in being hanged.

Indeed. When will you people catch up? Or would you espouse that I adopt a more islamic approach and start disrespecting my women now? So anyway.. where is this "flourishing"?

 

[S.A.M.]

Indeed. When will you people catch up? Or would you espouse that I adopt a more islamic approach and start disrespecting my women now? So anyway.. where is this "flourishing"?

Took the British 200 years and 25 famines to get real. Its only 60 years and we're taking your jobs without raising a single weapon.

 

[SnakeLord]

Took the British 200 years and 25 famines to get real. Its only 60 years and we're taking your jobs without raising a single weapon.

For a while there the Brits were busy owning most countries in the world, from India to America etc. As for taking jobs.. I'm sorry but from what is observable the only muslim occupation in this country is getting their kids to street beg and steal from clothing recycle bins. Oh, in between burning the British flag that is. They seemingly forget whos taxes are keeping them alive.

 

[draqon]

For a while there the Brits were busy owning most countries in the world, from India to America etc. As for taking jobs.. I'm sorry but from what is observable the only muslim occupation in this country is getting their kids to street beg and steal from clothing recycle bins. Oh, in between burning the British flag that is. They seemingly forget whos taxes are keeping them alive.

you are definitely wrong about the jobs muslim have taken...from health-care services to accounting firms, they are there allright.

 

[S.A.M.]

I didn't say "lies" I said "myths" and I didn't say anything about "filthy moors" either. Although speaking of filth - I remember there was a British Muslim who used to post here called Proud Syrian who posted a litany about filthy Coptics. Is that what you are talking about?

As for Plato - as I said, from Greek to Arabic. The reset are from other languages into Arabic. If you are attempting to suggest Arabs saved Greek Philosophy (something that was already lost) then I must assume you are talking about the Greek writing??? If not then you are simply referring to the translations made in Syriac by Christians and in Hebrew by Jews. Which has nothing to do at all with Islam.

Lastly, don't you find it funny? Arabs invade, conquer, loot monasteries and libraries, steal ancient manuscripts and you call it preservation?!?

What the hell kind of logic is that?

Arabs destroyed a LOT of the culture on the Eastern Mediterranean Sea - as you can see by Baghdad when an army come to town things usually turn to shit for awhile. This is something you seem to fail to acknowledge. SAM's view of Arab conquest is similar to Sandy's view of Americans saving Baghdad or Jew's defending themselves against Palestinians. Skewed to say the least.

I suppose if the Mongolians had scurried off with the library of Baghdad and forced Shamanism onto the Middle East you'd be telling us all about how Ghangus was the Last Prophet and "Shamanism" preserved Greek literature and inspired the European reawakening.

Surely you can see how absurd such an argument is?



Venice formed the strongest mercantile city-state since Rome, loots Constantinople, becomes fat and rich, stamps the Gold standard (used for 600 years all across the middle east and Europe - Venetian coins were even in circulation in China and India). They supported the artists - They sparked the reawakening. I have no idea how you can come to the conclusion it's has anything to do with an Arab religion? :bugeye:

Heck, the best parts of Islam pointed out to me often seem to be found in Europe! In Spain to be exact. How Ironic, the furthest point away from the center of "Islam" - where the Arabic culture holds the least influence and this is pointed to me again and again as the best of Islam :bugeye:

Why do you suppose that is???

The point stands: Almost all of Aristotle and all of Plato was already translated into Latin from the Greek not from the Arabic and what little there was was translated by Christians and Jews. Like I said - get the book, open it and read it. In there you will find that Greek Philosophy degenerated long before Islam. The mistake the Islamic philosophers made was that what they had stolen - those pretty packages labeled 'Plato' and 'Aristotle' were in reality Plotinus, Porphyry, and Proclus. They thought they were getting Aristotelianism, but they got Neoplatonism, which is neither Platonic nor Aristotelian. THAT was the whole point I had tried to make.

Michael

You know, your language is really interesting. Muslim scholars who translated the works of Greek philosophers with citations "stole" the works, while Christians and Jews who after the Dark Ages brought it back to the West did everyone a favor.

When the Muslim scholars not only clearly cited the source for EVERY single piece of work they translated but also were wary of sharing it with the western "scholars" of the time because they were famous for plagiarism.

Christian translators faced many serious obstacles. To begin with, Muslim intellectuals highly valued their cultural achievements and were not at all inclined to freely share their knowledge with "infidels" who had a reputation for plagiarism. Ibn Abdun, a Muslim cleric of the day complained:

Books of science ought not to be sold to Jews or Christians... Indeed, they translate books of science and attribute authorship to their coreligionists or to their bishops, when they are the work of Muslims.

And it was not known as the dark ages for no reason.

As for Baghdad, it now boasts of a fine US military base on the city of Babylon.

 

[S.A.M.]

you are definitely wrong about the jobs muslim have taken...from health-care services to accounting firms, they are there allright.

Let him dream, Dubai now owns 20% of the LSE. :shrug:

And who knows what sovereign funds the 900 billion of the Sauds are invested in, since they refuse to tell.

 

[SnakeLord]

you are definitely wrong about the jobs muslim have taken...from health-care services to accounting firms, they are there allright.

Admittedly I only work in a miniscule section of healthcare, but I see no muslims. Only working muslim I recall was in Sainsbury's. Don't get me wrong, I personally don't care who does what, but when people make claims and those claims are not really evident.. well, there you go.

Let him dream, Dubai now owns 20% of the LSE.

Oh to live above dead fossils. Where is that relevant?

 

[S.A.M.]

Admittedly I only work in a miniscule section of healthcare, but I see no muslims. Only working muslim I recall was in Sainsbury's. Don't get me wrong, I personally don't care who does what, but when people make claims and those claims are not really evident.. well, there you go.



Oh to live above dead fossils. Where is that relevant?

Evident where? To whom? Oh wait, you don't see any Muslims in your workplace so they don't work/exist elsewhere? I've seen only one Brit in my department in four years, so obviously they must be nearly extinct.

Would you know a Muslim if they were not named Mohammed?

 

[SnakeLord]

Evident where? To whom? Oh wait, you don't see any Muslims in your workplace so they don't work/exist elsewhere?

With some attention you will notice that my statements regarding what is or is not evident had nothing to do with muslims and existence.

Would you know a Muslim if they were not named Mohammed?

Well, they're usually the ones making all the noise and the women walk around looking like they wish they had rights.. right? Nah I'm only kidding. I usually recognise muslims by the mugshots in the paper.

To answer seriously, sure..

 

[S.A.M.]

With some attention you will notice that my statements regarding what is or is not evident had nothing to do with muslims and existence.



Well, they're usually the ones making all the noise and the women walk around looking like they wish they had rights.. right? Nah I'm only kidding. I usually recognise muslims by the mugshots in the paper.

To answer seriously, sure..

So you'd recognise Shibley Telhami and Gokhan Hotamisligil as Muslim names?

 

[SnakeLord]

So you'd recognise Shibley Telhami and Gokhan Hotamisligil as Muslim names?

Well, I'll be quite surprised if you tell me they're nordic.

 

[S.A.M.]

Well, I'll be quite surprised if you tell me they're nordic.

You mean like Svend White?

Though of a non-traditional background, Mr. White was raised Muslim. His father, Barry, embraced Islam in 1957 and his mother, Jette, became Muslim in Copenhagen in 1970.

His blog.

 

[Michael]

You know, your language is really interesting. Muslim scholars who translated the works of Greek philosophers with citations "stole" the works,

SAM, when one goes into a monastery and pillages - that's generally considered stealing.

By Greek Philosophers you of course mean Neoplatonism (probably Alexandrian) and by Muslim scholars who translated you mean Xian and Jewish translators living under Muslim occupation who translated ... ...

Regardless, this does not address any of the points I made about Plato or Aristotle.

Christians and Jews who after the Dark Ages brought it back to the West did everyone a favor.

a) It was already gone so there was no "back" to bring it to! It left 800 years BEFORE Islam SAM. All that was left was Neoplatonism.

b) The West had the Latin translations SAM. They did NOT receive Arabic translation of Plato AT ALL. None. Zilch. They had almost all of Aristotle. What they would have received are Xian and Jewish translations of Neoplatonic texts that those people thought were the real-deal. They weren't. They were by Neoplatonic authors. Neoplatonism is a far cry from Platonic nor Aristotelian philosophy.

Also, you may be interested to know, Muslims sometimes translated the words incorrectly if they thought that the ideas clashed with "Islamic" principal. Which they often did. How do we know this - because we have many other copies that are NOT Arabic. You seem to think that Arabs saved Greek Philosophy and it would have disappeared from the face of the planet had they not "saved/stolen" it. It wouldn't have. There were Latin, Syrian, Hebrew, not to mention Greek, copies in places such as Rome.

When the Muslim scholars not only clearly cited the source for EVERY single piece of work they translated but also were wary of sharing it with the western "scholars" of the time because they were famous for plagiarism.

Please SAM - PLEASE. You are telling me that Muslims couldn't be bothered to cite EVERY single piece of work concerning every single of the authors who wrote down which bits of the this and that - which finally was canonized and called the Qur'an (and this changed over time as well) but they did do so for some some blasphemous Neoplatonic manuscripts - which were themselves often confused in regards to authorship 800 years BEFORE Islam.

Please,

PLEASE,

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Been reading anti-Islam sites much?

Look up isnad. And yeah, its because the Muslims gave credit where it was due (and their works are all available for scrutiny) that there was no need to figure out where they got their stuff from.

And please read about the western scholars who translated Arabic works into Latin.

http://cco.cambridge.org/extract?id=ccol0521817439_CCOL0521817439A019

In case you don't have access:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2005/2005-09-67.html

And:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_translations_of_the_12th_century

As well as :

As Shakespeare is said to have had little Latin and less Greek, so we may say that the medievals had little Plato and less Aristotle.

Until the twelfth century, the medievals relied on a few influential Platonic dialogues such as the Timaeus, known through the translations and commentaries of ancient authorities, and ancient handbooks of Greek philosophical thought, such as the Didaskalikos of Alcinous and the Timaeus commentary of Calcidius. Notoriously arcane, cryptic, and dualistic, these influences gave rise to a philosophy heavily dependent on the notion that this world is neither real or important and that there is another, higher, better dimension of reality, inculturating Christianity with a world-negational attitude that has not been fully overcome.

While Latin Europe struggled along with incomplete texts of Plato and a dearth of Aristotle, scholars dwelling in Islamic countries were more fortunate. Lands conquered by Arabs early in the Islamic period held many Greek texts which were translated into Arabic, including almost all of Aristotle as we known him today.

In the twelfth century, translation centers sprang up in Sicily and Spain and intensive translation activity began. Works of Aristotle and Plato hitherto unknown in the Latin West were translated from Arabic into Latin, along with pseudo-Aristotelian works such as the Liber de Causis. The works of Arabic philosophers and commentators like al-Kindi, al-Farabi, Avicenna, and Averroes were also translated.

Even more texts became available in the 13th century, including early Platonic dialogues like the Phaedo and the Meno, more texts of Aristotle and commentaries on Aristotle.

This had an enormous impact on Western philosophy. Arabic thought provided European thought with new materials, and brought within its purview a whole new world of metaphysics. (W. M. Watt, The Influence of Islam on Medieval Europe. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1972, p. 70)

 

[Michael]

Been reading anti-Islam sites much?

Look up isnad. And yeah, its because the Muslims gave credit where it was due (and their works are all available for scrutiny) that there was no need to figure out where they got their stuff from.

So when I asked: Who wrote which parts of the Qur'an and you leave me with some story about how it was sang perfectly into history - are those songs the citation indexes you are referring to???

If you know who wrote what and when, then please post the citations, if not then retract the statement. Its a sort of put-up or shut-up sort of thing. Either you have the citations or you do not.

We were specifically talking about Plato and Aristotle. As you have perfect citation then you should have no difficulty posting the authors of a specific Platonic peace that was only translated into Latin from Arabic that was from a Muslim scholar using the Greek original.



And no I don't waste my time with Islamic sites of any kind. I posted the book. Read it.

The fact is there is this fantasy myth whereby Europe lost Greek philosophy and Arabs gave it back to them. It just is not the case. It has ZERO connect with reality. That is unless Arabs traveled back in time to the Athenian era and saved it



A couple points from your citation:

Lands conquered by Arabs early in the Islamic period held many Greek texts which were [stolen and then] translated into [Syriac and/or Hebrew and then into ] Arabic [by Xian and Jewish scholars living under occupation.]


Also from your link:
The Cambridge Companion to Arabic Philosophy,
'The Republic of Plato, though translated into Arabic, was not subsequently translated into Latin.' Ergo, the only work of Plato translated directly into Arabic did not make its way back to the West. BUT Geee we have the Republic - all of it. Hmmmmm I wonder how that could be????????? Oh maybe someone made a Latin copy of the Greek??

While we're using the Cambridge site lets not forget this one:
The Cambridge History of Later Medieval Philosophy:
Bernard Dod in writes 'a tenacious legend that the West learnt its Aristotle via translations from the Arabic, but the fact is the West only turned to Arabic in default of the more intelligible Greek-Latin ones


You have heard of Greco-roman?

 

[Michael]

I often hear that Arabs, being nomadic, didn't have a writing system? I wonder, when the pillaged their way into Egypt and happened upon the great libraries - who do you suppose did the translating from Greek? The Xian and Jewish scholars or the Muslim nomads?

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Heard of Arabic? The Quran? The script perfected for the Quran? All Arabs were nomads? All Arabised Muslims were nomads? Persian Muslims, Mongolian Muslims all nomads?

The Mongols had no script, probably why they adopted Arabic/Persian.

Plato was extensively commented upon by Farabi (Falsafa Aflatun), who was considered as authoritative in the Middle Ages as Aquinas was later on Aristotle. In the Middle Ages, his was probably the only source available since Latin literature all but disappeared from Europe. More likely, the translation of his work was not credited to him. Or was translated into another, intermediary language. Considering how widely he was read and studied, it is equally possible that many works are simply lost.

As far as philosophy in general is concerned, it should be noted that Falaquera made a sort of complete Hebrew abridgement of three main works by al-Farabi, and inserted them into part three of the Beginning of Science: the Attainment of Happiness (Tahsil al-sa‘ada), the Philosophy of Plato (Falsafa Aflatun) and the Philosophy of Aristotle (Falsafa Aristu), so spreading among Jews the knowledge of the general contents of all works by Plato and Aristotle (Strauss 1936; see also Mahdi 1962). Falaquera also quoted a short introductory passage of al-Farabi's Epistle On the Knowledge of Philosophy in his Book of Degrees (as pointed out in Chiesa and Rigo 1993).

Also some of al-Farabi's “long commentaries” (tafasir) on Aristotle's logic, even those now lost in their Arabic original text, can be shown to have influenced Jewish philosophers: the Long Commentary on Categories is preserved almost only due to the many quotations made by a Late Medieval Jewish author, Judah ben Isaac Cohen, and has very recently been published (Zonta 2006a); the Long Commentary on De interpretatione, found in Arabic, was translated into Hebrew before 1334 (the text of its introduction in Hebrew is still extant: see Zonta 1996, 162) and appears to have influenced Gersonides too (Glasner 2002, 252-254); many passages from the Long Commentary on Book Eight of Topics, lost in Arabic, were translated into Hebrew by Todros Todrosi in 1334 (Zonta 1997b, 555-562). As proved by Georges Vajda (Vajda 1965), Maimonides knew and implicitely employed al-Farabi's summary of Topics, book one, chapter 11, as a source of a passage of his Guide of the Perplexed, part two, chapter 25, concerning a discussion between the two different doctrines of the eternity of the world according to Aristotle and Plato; he also knew and paraphrased some passages from other logical works by al-Farabi (the summary of De interpretatione, the Long Commentary on Prior Analytics: see Davidson 2005, 113-114).

Some things have merely never been studied. e.g.
Influence of Arabic and Islamic Philosophy on Judaic Thought

The influence of Arabic and Islamic philosophy on Judaic thought has never been studied as a whole: as a matter of fact, in recent times it has not yet been the object of a comprehensive and detailed analysis, apart from that made in a general article (Zonta 1997a).

reference
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/arabic-islamic-judaic/#AlFar

 

[chuuush]

I should really get around to learning Arabic. It would make the verses so much easier to understand.

Man!..the difference between reading and understanding the Holy Quran in Arabic and reading its, however perfect, insuffiecient translations in other language is like the difference between being yourself present in a beautiful landscape with threes and greenery and water flowing beneath or having it related to you by others. It is this much difference I dare say as a non-arap who knows arabic. Quran in its original language is like a mild breeze which touches your soul, or an intoxicating rythm that gives you good tidings, while at the same time giving advices, instruction, warnings, lessons... Part of my unending love for the phophet of Islam, whom I'm proud for life to be named after, is because he brough such a perfect miracle to us human beings. Of course people are guided only if God (JJ) puts the capacity in their hearts, and when it comes to futile religious discussions some people start and wage, it is better to quote: "Allah will judge between us on the Day of Judgment" for as Rumi says the most futile discussion is the discussion with the fanatics"

 

[Revolvr]

"Allah will judge between us on the Day of Judgment" for as Rumi says the most futile discussion is the discussion with the fanatics"

All I can say is this world would be a much less violent place if you Muslims would just wait until Allah judges us day of judgment instead of bringing your opinion of Allah's judgment on everyone, including Muslims, in the here and now.