Virgins anyone???

[chuuush]

1) Where Muslims slave owners 100 years ago? Answer YES. See, that's the fact of HISTORY Arsalan. There is no arguing about it. It's a simple fact that we can both agree too. I can ask: Where Muslims Slavers 100 years ago and you can say YES Michael, Muslims were Slavers 100 years ago. I can ask: When did Muslim countries finally and completely (and what many Imams thought to be unIslamically) LEGALLY BAN ALL forms of Slavery? ALL FORMS. And you can say about 50 years ago. surprising.

I really wonder where Miky gets his info from. Muslims owned slaves 100 years ago!!! My grandparents should have missed that little details, they didn't tell me anything about it? One of them was an imam actually, so I should have heard some words fom him against anti-slavery.

A discussion with a fanatic is the most futile one. Rumi

 

[chuuush]

Here is an interesting detailing the Christinan and Islamic slave trade history:

http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles_ca/2004-4-TheScourgeofSlavery.htm

A real good source for quoting.. and we are supposed to trust on the report, huh?

 

[Arsalan]

*Snip*BS*Snip

I suggest you read my other post on slavery in islam before asking me these questions. Not gojng to repeat myself all over again for someone who doesnt even try to listen or understand and puts words in my mouth

 

[Michael]

Hehehe.. that's cool man! You made me laugh, GOD bless you!

LOL - well that's a start

 

[Michael]

I really wonder where Miky gets his info from. Muslims owned slaves 100 years ago!!! My grandparents should have missed that little details, they didn't tell me anything about it? One of them was an imam actually, so I should have heard some words fom him against anti-slavery.

A discussion with a fanatic is the most futile one. Rumi

I suggest you read my other post on slavery in islam before asking me these questions. Not gojng to repeat myself all over again for someone who doesnt even try to listen or understand and puts words in my mouth

I'm not suggesting every Muslim owned a Slave. But there is no arguing with History. There were slaves owned by Muslims and some as of less than 100 years ago.

But, lets digress, seeing as in Mecca and Medina hold special significance to Muslims, when was slavery completely and legally banned in those two Cities? I'm simply asking for the date.

Michael

 

[Michael]

Did Jesus ever own any Slaves or practice polygamy? I'm just curious because it was OKed in the OT and so should have been fine and dandy for the guy to do so.

 

[Arsalan]

I have a couple of questions for you Michael:

1) Was there slavery before Islam in Arabia? If so, which religions and or people practiced it?

2) Was slavery ingrained into pre-Islamic Arab society? Could it have been abolished over night?

3) What happened to the freed slaves in America? Were they suddenly accepted and everything was good and well as is the case in Islamic history where “slaves” were seen as brothers and sisters of the Muslims and treated just like the Muslims treated themselves?

4) Would a freed slave in the US have been able to hold as high an office as most “slaves” held in the Islamic world?

5) Did people who were taken captive during war and or those who decided to stay with the Muslims under their protection, “slaves” as you call them, have their own houses and families and money or not?

6) Were they allowed and able to buy themselves free or demand freedom or not?

7) How many years was there slavery in the non-Muslim world? Let’s start from the Greek and Roman periods to the “abolition”

8) Did the Holy Prophet describe slave trade as the worst occupation or not?

9) Did he say that slave traders were the worst people in the sight of Allah or not?

10) Are you saying that in a communist country there are no slaves?

11) Are you aware of the fact that slavery still exists in the US and other countries: sweatshops, sex trade etc?

12) How is that when it’s clearly been abolished?

13) Could it be that some people don’t give a hoot about the laws and do whatever they want i.e.sex slavetrading?

14) Does not verse 8:68 strike at the root of slavery and therefore abolish it?

15) Does not the Quran allow people to be taken captive in only 1 event: after a battle that’s been won? How is that different from POWs? And are Muslims even then not exhorted to release those prisoners of war?

16) Did the Holy Prophet not close most of the doors leading to slavery?

17) Are there not 100s of Hadith telling people to set slaves free? Hadith like:

If a person owning a slave sets him free, God will in recompense save every part of his body corresponding to every part of the slave’s body from the torment of Hell. (Sahih Muslim)

18) Surely you must acknowledge that everything he did and said about slavery shows that he fought for the freedom of slaves 1000s of years before anyone in the West thought about that?

19) What do respected Afrocentric scholars like Cheikh Anta Diop, Edward Wilmot Blyden, W.E.B. Dubois, J. A. Rogers, Ivan Van Sertima and Dr. Waiter Rodney say about Islam and slavery?

20) What do the Sierra Leone Studies or Lady Southern's book, The Gambia, say about Islam and slavery?

21) What does Annemarie Schimmel or Roger Du Pasquier say about Islam and slavery?

 

[Michael]

1) Was there slavery before Islam in Arabia? If so, which religions and or people practiced it?

Yes - all religions that I know of

2) Was slavery ingrained into pre-Islamic Arab society? Could it have been abolished over night?

Two part question
a) Yes it was a part of culture - as far as I know anyway
b) It's hard to say. Slavery was abolished in China overnight. So yes it is possible. Also, if one were to believe that God can do anything then God could send down the words to convince all people that Slavery was evil and should be stopped - that is ALL PEOPLE, freewill or not. Such is the power of being God. Next: Mohammad may not have abolished Slavery, as the Prophet Mao did, but he certainly could have set an example by NEVER personally owning a Slave. Lastly, 1500 years of Islamic Slavery - a bit long huh? By overnight I would assume you'd mean in his life time - The Prophet Abraham did .... Lincoln that is

So lets not make excuses.

3) What happened to the freed slaves in America? Were they suddenly accepted and everything was good and well as is the case in Islamic history where “slaves” were seen as brothers and sisters of the Muslims and treated just like the Muslims treated themselves?

There were most certainly NOT treated as brothers and sisters - f*cke many had their balls cut right off! You treat your brother as such?

Secondly a freed slave is something different. Sometimes Freed Slaves in the States owned Slaves! Freed Slaves in the Roman Empire sometimes became high standing Citizens. So I'm not sure of your point.

Lastly, Obama is running for President and it certainly wasn't 1500 years after Lincoln!

4) Would a freed slave in the US have been able to hold as high an office as most “slaves” held in the Islamic world?

You are trying to tell me MOST slaved held high office? I'll need a citation or three.


5) Did people who were taken captive during war and or those who decided to stay with the Muslims under their protection, “slaves” as you call them, have their own houses and families and money or not?

Depends on the time and the Slave and their Master. I'm sure the Slaves sold with their balls cut off didn't. OR are you going to tell me that no slave was ever made Eunice for their lslamic Master. Many boys and girls were bought purely for sex.

6) Were they allowed and able to buy themselves free or demand freedom or not?

Again it depends on the Slave and their Master.

7) How many years was there slavery in the non-Muslim world? Let’s start from the Greek and Roman periods to the “abolition”

In the Middle East? 7000 years. In Japan maybe 2500. Why?

8) Did the Holy Prophet describe slave trade as the worst occupation or not?

Actions speak louder than words. Slave Trade is the worst occupation - Hey Slave, yes you, the one I named Ship, carry this for me.

9) Did he say that slave traders were the worst people in the sight of Allah or not?

Did Mohammad ever trade a Slave?

10) Are you saying that in a communist country there are no slaves?

I'm saying China legally abolished Slavery. Was there a Slave? Probably.

11) Are you aware of the fact that slavery still exists in the US and other countries: sweatshops, sex trade etc?

Sure, but as for the US "Slavery" is not legal. If someone gets caught doing it they will go to jail.

12) How is that when it’s clearly been abolished?

Murder occurs int he USA too - it's also illegal.

13) Could it be that some people don’t give a hoot about the laws and do whatever they want i.e.sex slavetrading?

Yes

14) Does not verse 8:68 strike at the root of slavery and therefore abolish it?

[8:68] If it were not for a predetermined decree from GOD, you would have suffered, on account of what you took, a terrible retribution.

Sounds to me like God is saying, well it would have been wrong BUT it was predetermined. Simply put, this verse could and was used to justfy slavery for as long as there was Islam.

Anyway, as for abolishing Slavery - we both know such a verse did NOT lead to the abolishing. Agreed?

15) Does not the Quran allow people to be taken captive in only 1 event: after a battle that’s been won? How is that different from POWs? And are Muslims even then not exhorted to release those prisoners of war?

16) Did the Holy Prophet not close most of the doors leading to slavery?

He should have closed ALL of the doors

17) Are there not 100s of Hadith telling people to set slaves free? Hadith like:

Yet here were are stuck with the fact that Slavery was a THRIVING Industry in Islamic countries for 1500 years. This is a fact of History. Agreed???

18) Surely you must acknowledge that everything he did and said about slavery shows that he fought for the freedom of slaves 1000s of years before anyone in the West thought about that?

Mohammad wold fall into the category of hypocrite then - He owned Slaves! But, he was just a nomadic herdsmen so maybe we're asking too much of him. Seems though he had a good opportunity to try and at least set an example and to some degree he did. Like you said he did set some of his Slaves free. It's apparent that overall though Slavery was not all that high on the to-do list. He did condemn it, make it illegal and fight against it. I think a better man would have?

Anyway, many Romans wrote many diatribes talking of the horrors of Slavery and why it should be abolished. Not that it did much good - certainly not as much as people who actually fought to FREE slaves. perhaps Mohammad falls into this camp?

19) What do respected Afrocentric scholars like Cheikh Anta Diop, Edward Wilmot Blyden, W.E.B. Dubois, J. A. Rogers, Ivan Van Sertima and Dr. Waiter Rodney say about Islam and slavery?

Have to read them

20) What do the Sierra Leone Studies or Lady Southern's book, The Gambia, say about Islam and slavery?

see above

21) What does Annemarie Schimmel or Roger Du Pasquier say about Islam and slavery?[/QUOTE]

ditto


Regardless, we are left with the FACT that Islam did not abolish Slavery and that as an Institution millions upon millions of children and adults were Bought and Sold as flesh in the Islamic Slave markets. These are facts of History. In the case of Slavery Islam totally dropped the ball. AND if Mohammad had some real foresight he would have made it a point to personally have NEVER owned a Slave. But, he didn't did he?

Why do you think that is? Why did Mohammad own Slaves?

Michael

 

[Michael]

NOTE: I'm not saying that Islamic people were really any different than many Xian and polytheistic people in many regards as far as Slavery is concerned.

That's the point.

As far as Islam is concerned didn't work to abolish slavery. Simple fact really.


To me it's no different than a Communist apologist. I can say: It didn't work. They will say, no it's "perfect" it's just the "peoples" fault it didn't work. If they only followed the Prophet Mao then bla bla bla...

Communism didn't create a perfect society and neither did Islam. The difference is, Communist were smart enough to evolve their system and begin progressing forward again, while Islam, being a religion that can not change, isn't. Hence we have Xians eventually banning Slavery while Muslims didn't.

That's my point anyway,
Michael

 

[Vega]

Interesting point mike! great post!!!

 

[Arsalan]

b) It's hard to say. Slavery was abolished in China overnight. So yes it is possible. Also, if one were to believe that God can do anything then God could send down the words to convince all people that Slavery was evil and should be stopped - that is ALL PEOPLE, freewill or not. Such is the power of being God. Next: Mohammad may not have abolished Slavery, as the Prophet Mao did, but he certainly could have set an example by NEVER personally owning a Slave. Lastly, 1500 years of Islamic Slavery - a bit long huh? By overnight I would assume you'd mean in his life time - The Prophet Abraham did .... Lincoln that is

What happened to the slaves in China and the USA when slavery was completely banned after 1000s of years? Also, God did send down the words, but free will my friend, thats what it comes down to. Also, studying the hadith you will find that in his eyes he never owned any slaves. Lets look at the case of Zayd it was iirc. A slave given to the Prophet before the revelations. One day his father found him and asked the prophet to release him upon which the Prophet said don’t ask me, ask him, hes a free man. Thats how he saw people who you call “his slaves”. He never once thought of them as his property. He gave them houses, they had families and lived under his protection. He did all his work himself and never asked anyone to do anything for him he couldn’t do.

There were most certainly NOT treated as brothers and sisters - f*cke many had their balls cut right off! You treat your brother as such?

Not true. Cases where this happened to a “slave” were extremely rare and the perpetrator duly punished if found out.

Secondly a freed slave is something different. Sometimes Freed Slaves in the States owned Slaves! Freed Slaves in the Roman Empire sometimes became high standing Citizens. So I'm not sure of your point.

Ah, i guess thats why it took people like MLK and Malcolm X to achieve equality.

Lastly, Obama is running for President and it certainly wasn't 1500 years after Lincoln!

Obama is cool and all but hes got a long way to go before actually becoming president. And he wouldn’t have been able to do this right after slavery was abolished. How different was the situation in the Muslim empire were slaves and freed slaves became rulers of whole empires and nations themselves, 1000s of years ago.

You are trying to tell me MOST slaved held high office? I'll need a citation or three.

I never said most. But it happened. You can find this on your own.

Depends on the time and the Slave and their Master. I'm sure the Slaves sold with their balls cut off didn't. OR are you going to tell me that no slave was ever made Eunice for their lslamic Master. Many boys and girls were bought purely for sex.

Sexual slavery is completely forbidden by the Quran itself. And if some people did make some slaves eunuchs or have sex with them, blaming Islam for that is unfair.

Again it depends on the Slave and their Master.

Depends hehe... Zakat, the tax Muslims paid, was used for loads of charity including freeing slaves by paying for them or helping them setup their own life.

In the Middle East? 7000 years. In Japan maybe 2500. Why?

The number you keep spouting out about “Islamic slavery” seems pretty tame compared with that doesn’t it?

Actions speak louder than words. Slave Trade is the worst occupation - Hey Slave, yes you, the one I named Ship, carry this for me.

Funny, but not very helpful in this discussion.

Did Mohammad ever trade a Slave?

No, they were free to come and goa s they wished. It may be hard for you to comprehend but most people actually liked being with him, in his company and learn from. “Slaves” that he “owned” refused to leave him whilst they could.

I'm saying China legally abolished Slavery. Was there a Slave? Probably.

You do know that in a communist country everyone is basically a slave right?

Sure, but as for the US "Slavery" is not legal. If someone gets caught doing it they will go to jail.

So it does happen. Nice to know. So many years after your prophert Lincoln eh

Murder occurs int he USA too - it's also illegal.

13) Could it be that some people don’t give a hoot about the laws and do whatever they want i.e.sex slavetrading?

Yes

At least something we can agree on. So now we have stablished that some people wont care for the rules, lets move on to the verse i gave.

[8:68] If it were not for a predetermined decree from GOD, you would have suffered, on account of what you took, a terrible retribution.

It seems your using a different translation to mine. Let me quote the verse i:

It does not behove a Prophet that he should have captives until he engages in regular fighting in the land...

This verse shows that taking someone captive when one is not fighting is not allowed and therefore capturing and enslaving someone for no reason is not allowed. Another verse which strikes at the root of slavery is 47:5 which says that when the war has ended, the prisoners should be released, either as an act of favour, or on taking ransom or by mutual exchange. They should not be held permanently in captivity or as slaves. As pointed out by Muir, Zurqani and Hisham this verse effectively strikes at the roots of slavery, abolishing it completely and forever

He should have closed ALL of the doors

Thats what the Quran did.

Yet here were are stuck with the fact that Slavery was a THRIVING Industry in Islamic countries for 1500 years. This is a fact of History. Agreed???

I wouldn’t say thriving and wouldn’t say for 1500 years. But yes it happened and unfortunately innocent free man and women are still enslaved. Its wrong and against Islam as shown by the verses above.

Mohammad wold fall into the category of hypocrite then - He owned Slaves! But, he was just a nomadic herdsmen so maybe we're asking too much of him. Seems though he had a good opportunity to try and at least set an example and to some degree he did. Like you said he did set some of his Slaves free. It's apparent that overall though Slavery was not all that high on the to-do list. He did condemn it, make it illegal and fight against it. I think a better man would have?
Anyway, many Romans wrote many diatribes talking of the horrors of Slavery and why it should be abolished. Not that it did much good - certainly not as much as people who actually fought to FREE slaves. perhaps Mohammad falls into this camp?

He fought for the freedom of slaves and condemned it way before his mission as a Prophet started. Also, as Ive made clear above, he never saw himself as “owning” another human being. To him they were free to come and go as they pleased but most wished to stay with him. Calling them slaves when they had all the freedoms of free men and women is wrong.

Regardless, we are left with the FACT that Islam did not abolish Slavery and that as an Institution millions upon millions of children and adults were Bought and Sold as flesh in the Islamic Slave markets. These are facts of History. In the case of Slavery Islam totally dropped the ball. AND if Mohammad had some real foresight he would have made it a point to personally have NEVER owned a Slave. But, he didn't did he?

The Quran abolishes slaveyr by striking at its roots and therefore it abolished slavery 1500 years ago. The slaves that were already there were gradually released because if they were immediately released, there would be a sudden rise in the homeless and beggars and we would have the same shenanigans of inequality that we still have in parts of the US.

You see, I agree to the facts of history that slavery did happen in Muslim countries, but where I disagree is when you say that the Quran permitted it or the Prophet permitted it or that somehow it was "Islamic" slavetrade.

 

[Arsalan]

Islam, being a religion that can not change, isn't. Hence we have Xians eventually banning Slavery while Muslims didn't.

I suggest you read up on the Mujaddids and what their mission was and then say that Islam does not evolve. It is a perfect religion and to be perfect it has to be able to adapt. Which is exactly what the office of the Mujaddid entailed.

 

[Michael]

Also, God did send down the words, but free will my friend, thats what it comes down to.

Which is why I specifically said EVEN if humans have free will, GOD (being ALL POWERFUL) can make the perfect argument using the exact combination of words such that any human would instantly recognize the evils of Slavery.

Agreed?

Or are you saying that human free-will is beyond the ability of God?

You can not have it both ways. Either God is ALL powerful or It is not ALL powerful. You can’t say: God is all powerful BUT can’t do this or that – but is still all powerful. It’s illogical.

Also, studying the hadith you will find that in his eyes he never owned any slaves. Lets look at the case of Zayd it was iirc. A slave given to the Prophet before the revelations. One day his father found him and asked the prophet to release him upon which the Prophet said don’t ask me, ask him, hes a free man. Thats how he saw people who you call “his slaves”. He never once thought of them as his property. He gave them houses, they had families and lived under his protection. He did all his work himself and never asked anyone to do anything for him he couldn’t do.

Then the question becomes: How is a Slave differentiated from a Freeman. Did Mohammad ever own a Slave or only Employ Freemen?

NOTE: You appear to be swing apologetic. That is, are you suggesting that yes you agree with me, Institutionalized Slavery is Evil but that Mohammad never owned a Slave? Is that your argument?

Not true. Cases where this happened to a “slave” were extremely rare and the perpetrator duly punished if found out.

This is a matter of History. We’d have to look up many different references. But, lets use logic for a minute. You seem to paint this wondrous picture of life as a Slave. It’s so wondrous I’d venture to say it seems to be better than most Freemen’s lives! A House. A Free Family. Protection. Food. Don’t have to do work if you don’t want to.

Arsalan – do you really believe life was so grand? If that were the case people would be Selling themselves into Slavery! Even in Rome, Athens, Alexandra - the richest cities in the World, the Citizens themselves didn’t have it so good!

Ah, i guess thats why it took people like MLK and Malcolm X to achieve equality.

A hell of a lot of Xians killed their own brothers to free southern slaves. A lot of people did a lot of work. Some remarkable Jewish lawyers from New York traveled to the south and helped right the law. Many people were killed just trying to enforce the law. It was a collaborative effort.

Obama is cool and all but hes got a long way to go before actually becoming president. And he wouldn’t have been able to do this right after slavery was abolished. How different was the situation in the Muslim empire were slaves and freed slaves became rulers of whole empires and nations themselves, 1000s of years ago.

These isn’t anything particularly unique in this Arsalan. Many MANY Roman Slaves became prominent Citizens and Leaders. Many Greek Slaves became Teachers and Doctors. I really don’t see the point. Yeah, some people make it up – so what? Most don’t and Slavery is still evil.

Lets not make it seem like “Hey Hey, Come One, Come ALL – Yessserry folks - Increase yir chances of becoming an Emperor – sell yir self into Slavery today my friend! Come one come all...!!!

Pleeeaasseee.

The life of MOST slaves sucked and ended badly. Many MANY slave girls were raped and many slave boy raped and sodomized. It’s a simple fact of ALL societies where slavery was practiced.

Sexual slavery is completely forbidden by the Quran itself. And if some people did make some slaves eunuchs or have sex with them, blaming Islam for that is unfair.

In a sense simply by allowing Slavery Islam is patritally to blame. Again, it’s like saying Communism is for the people and HEY if there are a 100 million people who hold office PURELY through nepotism well well well THAT has nothing at all to do with the governing structure! It is stated quite clearly that people will work for the good of the people – not themselves!

Please, if the system has a problem then accept it and try to fix it. Don’t keep placing the blame back onto the people.




Allow Slavery and expect to get Slavery - It's really THAT Simple.

Depends hehe... Zakat, the tax Muslims paid, was used for loads of charity including freeing slaves by paying for them or helping them setup their own life.

Most people in Islamic country's barley have enough food to eat themselves – YET you can stand there with a straight face and say they actually (a) freed their workmen/slaves and (b) helped them set up their life???

PLEASE!

Sure a couple RICH and GUILTY noblemen may have done this from time to time – certainly not the majority of people.

The number you keep spouting out about “Islamic slavery” seems pretty tame compared with that doesn’t it?

Haaa – I’m not sure of your point?

Funny, but not very helpful in this discussion.

I read Mohammad had a Slave called Ship.

No, they were free to come and goa s they wished. It may be hard for you to comprehend but most people actually liked being with him, in his company and learn from. “Slaves” that he “owned” refused to leave him whilst they could.

So your point is Mohammad never owned any Slaves??? These were ALL Freemen?

You do know that in a communist country everyone is basically a slave right?

A Slave has an Owner. Let’s not try to warp the definition.

It seems your using a different translation to mine. Let me quote the verse i:

Yes quite different:
It does not behove a Prophet that he should have captives until he engages in regular fighting in the land...


A better Law would be: Slavery is Illegal.

Thats what the Quran did.

I wouldn’t say thriving and wouldn’t say for 1500 years. But yes it happened and unfortunately innocent free man and women are still enslaved. Its wrong and against Islam as shown by the verses above.

The verse you posted says “until” which most certainly allows Slavery in Islam and worse yet, gives unscrupulous individuals a reason (loophole to exploit) to (a) wage war and (b) take slaves!!!!

It’s got to be the most moronic verse IF it's intent is to try and ban Slavery?!?!?!!

Anyway, it is a Historic FACT that Slavery was LEGALLY present in Islamic countries up until <50 years.

What do you say to that?

He fought for the freedom of slaves and condemned it way before his mission as a Prophet started. Also, as Ive made clear above, he never saw himself as “owning” another human being. To him they were free to come and go as they pleased but most wished to stay with him. Calling them slaves when they had all the freedoms of free men and women is wrong.

Well then, Mohammad never owned a Slave, he only employed Freemen. That’s a Start. But is it true or wishful thinking?

IThe Quran abolishes slaveyr by striking at its roots and therefore it abolished slavery 1500 years ago. The slaves that were already there were gradually released because if they were immediately released, there would be a sudden rise in the homeless and beggars and we would have the same shenanigans of inequality that we still have in parts of the US.

Historically that is no where near True. Slavery was big business in Islamic countries. Even small English hamlets were raided for Slaves. Even for favored blond haired sex-Slaves.

Again – ON WHAT DAY was Slavery made Illegal in KSA? Yemen? Well???

You see, I agree to the facts of history that slavery did happen in Muslim countries, but where I disagree is when you say that the Quran permitted it or the Prophet permitted it or that somehow it was "Islamic" slavetrade.

OK, I will agree that there was a lot of Slave trade that happened outside of Islamic principals. BUT, we must also agree that, under the right circumstances, Islam permits Slavery. If Islam did not permit Slavery then people would not come up with some bullshit to justify it. Hence there is a flaw in Islam in regards to Slavery.



Also, and this is really the MAIN point. Using the "Qur'an" as a guiding principal in society - Muslims did NOT legally ban Slavery. It was practice in one form or another for 1500 years. Only being made illegal recently.

Again, What do you say to that???

Come on, If that’s not a failure on the issue of Slavery then I simply don’t know what one is. I mean 1500 years is a bloddy loooong time IF the idea is to ban Slavery!

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Who has banned slavery?

 

[Arsalan]

Which is why I specifically said EVEN if humans have free will, GOD (being ALL POWERFUL) can make the perfect argument using the exact combination of words such that any human would instantly recognize the evils of Slavery.

Agreed?

Or are you saying that human free-will is beyond the ability of God?

You can not have it both ways. Either God is ALL powerful or It is not ALL powerful. You can’t say: God is all powerful BUT can’t do this or that – but is still all powerful. It’s illogical.

The debate about free will and predestiny is, as you would agree, very complex and still raging on. Its not part of this topic. The fact remains that slavery was attacked at its roots in the Quran itself.

Then the question becomes: How is a Slave differentiated from a Freeman. Did Mohammad ever own a Slave or only Employ Freemen?

AS far as I know he never owned another human being.

NOTE: You appear to be swing apologetic. That is, are you suggesting that yes you agree with me, Institutionalized Slavery is Evil but that Mohammad never owned a Slave? Is that your argument?

Im not an apologetic, i have nothing to apologise for. Just because I want to rectify your wrong view or interpreation of Islam doesnt mean im somehow an apologetic who knows he is wrong but tries to cover it up. Instituionalized slavery is wrong as the Prophet himself said. And he never owned another human being.

This is a matter of History. We’d have to look up many different references. But, lets use logic for a minute. You seem to paint this wondrous picture of life as a Slave. It’s so wondrous I’d venture to say it seems to be better than most Freemen’s lives! A House. A Free Family. Protection. Food. Don’t have to do work if you don’t want to.

Arsalan – do you really believe life was so grand? If that were the case people would be Selling themselves into Slavery! Even in Rome, Athens, Alexandra - the richest cities in the World, the Citizens themselves didn’t have it so good!

Im not painting anything, im merely stating history as it happened up until the Rashideen. Glad to see you think its wonderful, people actually looking out for each other and all

A hell of a lot of Xians killed their own brothers to free southern slaves. A lot of people did a lot of work. Some remarkable Jewish lawyers from New York traveled to the south and helped right the law. Many people were killed just trying to enforce the law. It was a collaborative effort.

Im not talking about freeing the slaves, im talking about euqality. Yes, you can legally do a whole lot of stuff but if you dont change peoples hearts and minds people will always break the law.

These isn’t anything particularly unique in this Arsalan. Many MANY Roman Slaves became prominent Citizens and Leaders. Many Greek Slaves became Teachers and Doctors. I really don’t see the point. Yeah, some people make it up – so what? Most don’t and Slavery is still evil.

Ofcourse slavery is evil. Thats why the PRophet said it was evil and the roots of it were attacked in the Quran.

Lets not make it seem like “Hey Hey, Come One, Come ALL – Yessserry folks - Increase yir chances of becoming an Emperor – sell yir self into Slavery today my friend! Come one come all...!!!

Pleeeaasseee.

Once again, funny but this shows, once again, your failure to comprehend another persons argument.

The life of MOST slaves sucked and ended badly. Many MANY slave girls were raped and many slave boy raped and sodomized. It’s a simple fact of ALL societies where slavery was practiced.

Sorry to hear.

In a sense simply by allowing Slavery Islam is patritally to blame. Again, it’s like saying Communism is for the people and HEY if there are a 100 million people who hold office PURELY through nepotism well well well THAT has nothing at all to do with the governing structure! It is stated quite clearly that people will work for the good of the people – not themselves!

Please, if the system has a problem then accept it and try to fix it. Don’t keep placing the blame back onto the people.

Haha! Islam did not allow slavery, it struck at its roots and it was continuously and comprehensively denounced as evil. But hey, all that appears to you as "Doesnt matter, its all good" right?

Allow Slavery and expect to get Slavery - It's really THAT Simple.

Sexual slavery is not allowed. But hey, the US doesnt allow slavery but still has the sex slave trade

Most people in Islamic country's barley have enough food to eat themselves – YET you can stand there with a straight face and say they actually (a) freed their workmen/slaves and (b) helped them set up their life???

Are you talking about now and all muslim countries? You do know that in the past Muslim nations were beacons of progress and achievement and also very rich? Also, every Muslim pays Zakat, now how much Zakat does a whole country of Muslims pay. Figure that out for yourself.

Sure a couple RICH and GUILTY noblemen may have done this from time to time – certainly not the majority of people.

I know, its hard for you to grasp that Muslims and Islam at its core are friendly and try to help but thats your preconceived image, not mine.

Haaa – I’m not sure of your point?

I know, its hard for you to admit that something thats been going on for over 7k years in the world, even in the part of the world you say has a better religious syetm than Islam , is not the fault of the Muslima and Islam. "But ARSALAN!! THERE WERE MUSLIM SLAVE TRADERS!!" "No, there were slavetraders, their religion is irrelevant seeing as how it was a global industry" Get it now? Also are you hereby agreeing that Slavery by "Muslim slavetraders" was nowhere near as long as by "non-Muslims"?

A Slave has an Owner. Let’s not try to warp the definition.

Yes, lets not dig into communism because it would expose how every subject in a communist state is a slave with nothing for himself. But its all good. Why? "prophet" mao ofcourse lol

Yes quite different:
It does not behove a Prophet that he should have captives until he engages in regular fighting in the land...


A better Law would be: Slavery is Illegal.

And thats what it says: No one is allowed to put another human in capitivity by denying them their freedom. That is the gist of those verses. Slavery is illegal is another short gist of those verses.

The verse you posted says “until” which most certainly allows Slavery in Islam and worse yet, gives unscrupulous individuals a reason (loophole to exploit) to (a) wage war and (b) take slaves!!!!

Ah but if you had read my post in that other topic, you would have known that during and after war captives are to be taken to a safe place and after the war released or as a mutual exchange. Just like POWs. Dont you agree?

Anyway, it is a Historic FACT that Slavery was LEGALLY present in Islamic countries up until <50 years.


What do you say to that?

7k years

Historically that is no where near True. Slavery was big business in Islamic countries.

As it was in the rest of the world. BTW, can you give me conclusive proof that these slavetraders were Muslims. Just out of curiosity.

OK, I will agree that there was a lot of Slave trade that happened outside of Islamic principals. BUT, we must also agree that, under the right circumstances, Islam permits Slavery. If Islam did not permit Slavery then people would not come up with some bullshit to justify it. Hence there is a flaw in Islam in regards to Slavery.

Islam only permits POWs to be captured and tells people to release any slaves currently in anyones possession. It also prohibits anyone from capturing and enslaving free men and women. Thats enough to prove that any slavetraders in Muslim countries acted outside of Sharia Law because they captured and enslaved free men and women.

Also, and this is really the MAIN point. Using the "Qur'an" as a guiding principal in society - Muslims did NOT legally ban Slavery. It was practice in one form or another for 1500 years. Only being made illegal recently.

Again, What do you say to that???

Slavery only grew in Muslim countries long after their righteous and religious leaders had passed away.

Come on, If that’s not a failure on the issue of Slavery then I simply don’t know what one is. I mean 1500 years is a bloddy loooong time IF the idea is to ban Slavery!

As is 7k years and what was it 2.5k years in japan or China? Bloody long time.

 

[Michael]

OK I've broken this into 4 parts that we need to discuss:

Part 1
AS far as I know he never owned another human being.

So Mohammad never owned a Slave. OK, if anyone has some info ON this then please present it. I will take some time and look into it too.

I have a question through:
Arsalan, Is owning a Slave and selling a Slave evil?

Part 2

Islam did not allow slavery, it struck at its roots and it was continuously and comprehensively denounced as evil. But hey, all that appears to you as "Doesnt matter, its all good" right?

Im not painting anything, im merely stating history as it happened up until the Rashideen. Glad to see you think its wonderful, people actually looking out for each other and all

Are you talking about now and all muslim countries? You do know that in the past Muslim nations were beacons of progress and achievement and also very rich? Also, every Muslim pays Zakat, now how much Zakat does a whole country of Muslims pay. Figure that out for yourself.

Slavery only grew in Muslim countries long after their righteous and religious leaders had passed away.

This is what I call Muslim Main Fairytale #1. There once was this time, long long ago, in a far off land where milk and honey flowed like water and there was only peace in the world....

Can you list the dates when this supposed paradise existed? Also, could you post some non-Islamic historic documentation backing it up. Surely the Greeks would have commented on it if such a wondrous place were no one was murdered, there were no police because no one committed crime and food plenty enough for all, so much so that Slavers were given homes and didn't even have to work if they didn't want to!
:bugeye:
I'm not buying it.

Part 3

Im not talking about freeing the slaves, im talking about euqality. Yes, you can legally do a whole lot of stuff but if you dont change peoples hearts and minds people will always break the law.

As is 7k years and what was it 2.5k years in japan or China? Bloody long time.

Yes, but that was my point. Peoples hearts and minds were not changed. YET, they were under Communism? That's odd isn't it? They bloody well changed in less than 10 years as far as Slavery is concerned. So in terms of Slavery it is possible to change and do so in less than 1500 years. (also see American Civil War).

BUT, this is where you are proposing that when Mohammad was alive there were no Slaves and life was grand for everyone - up until the Rashideen. Then suddenly, for some reason, people thought - you know what THIS is just TOO GOOD. TOO GOOD PEOPLE - Lets go back to when it used to suck :bugeye: Come one Arsalan, this fantasy time never existed! It never did and never will.


It's like this:
I can imagine some die-hard Communists 1500 years from now in the future talking about the Good Old Days back in the USSR. Why, for proof all we need to see is that Russians put a man into space before anyone else. Life MUST have been wondrous for everyone! But then people lost there way and life went bad. So life didn't go bad because Communism doesn't work, it went bad because people lost their way for whatever reasons we will not think about too much!

This is in essence what YOU are telling ME.

There is no evidence that life was so wondrous and all Slaves were freed and people lived ooo sooo much better than before. On the contrary, in places like the Western Mediterranean there is a lot of evidence that civilization collapsed. For example, Syria was famous for Marble artwork - this was lost as people didn't trade in the Empire any longer and were conquered by Muslims and so most people went on to live as subsistence farmers. No time for Art. Hardly the time of wondrous milk and honey if you ask me!

That's the REAL History.

And if you don't think so - just look at modern day Iraq. See what War brings?

Part 4
"No, there were slavetraders, their religion is irrelevant seeing as how it was a global industry" Get it now? Also are you hereby agreeing that Slavery by "Muslim slavetraders" was nowhere near as long as by "non-Muslims"?


Then we are stuck with the argument I was making.
Islam didn't work in the long run.
If it was supposed to bring about LASTING positive change - well it didn't. Agreed? Anyone can conquer and steal the riches of someone else's labor and they can use that stolen money to prop up their government for awhile. Through the use of propaganda (like putting a man into space) things may even seem like they are going great.

but guess what - that stolen money runs out one day.

THEN we see if the governmental philosophy really works - here in the REAL world.

Islam didn't work any better than any other hereditary monarchy's - which was (and IS) the staple of Islamic governmental structure. History has shown this to be fact. I'm not saying it was much worse, it was just more of the same. A typical hereditary monarchy underpinned with monotheism. Classic recipe for disaster!

Agreed???
Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

So what is working?

This?

 

[Arsalan]

OK I've broken this into 4 parts that we need to discuss:

Part 1
AS far as I know he never owned another human being.

So Mohammad never owned a Slave. OK, if anyone has some info ON this then please present it. I will take some time and look into it too.

I have a question through:
Arsalan, Is owning a Slave and selling a Slave evil?

In his eyes he never owned a human being. He did not see humans as property. And he himself said that slavery is evil and slavetrading as well, weve been over this.

Part 2
This is what I call Muslim Main Fairytale #1. There once was this time, long long ago, in a far off land where milk and honey flowed like water and there was only peace in the world....

Can you list the dates when this supposed paradise existed? Also, could you post some non-Islamic historic documentation backing it up. Surely the Greeks would have commented on it if such a wondrous place were no one was murdered, there were no police because no one committed crime and food plenty enough for all, so much so that Slavers were given homes and didn't even have to work if they didn't want to!

I'm not buying it.

Lol, im not painting a heaven on earth. People still killed each other. Crime was still there. Why? We go back to the argument about freewill and predestiny.

Part 3

Yes, but that was my point. Peoples hearts and minds were not changed. YET, they were under Communism? That's odd isn't it? They bloody well changed in less than 10 years as far as Slavery is concerned. So in terms of Slavery it is possible to change and do so in less than 1500 years. (also see American Civil War).

So hearts and minds suddenly changed? Communism didnt force itself upon people? Come on man you know as well as me that Communism failed exactly because of the slavery. People had nothing of their own and got royally ripped off in everything. Although some aspects of Comunism are brilliant.

BUT, this is where you are proposing that when Mohammad was alive there were no Slaves and life was grand for everyone - up until the Rashideen. Then suddenly, for some reason, people thought - you know what THIS is just TOO GOOD. TOO GOOD PEOPLE - Lets go back to when it used to suck Come one Arsalan, this fantasy time never existed! It never did and never will.

"Slaves" were there, just not as you would depict it. Thats my only qualm with your argument. That slaves in Islam lived like this and blabla and Islam permitted en encouraged slavery. You just cant accept that Islam did not encourage it but instead sought to abolish it.

Also, the decline of religiousness and righteoussness of the Muslim empires was prophesied by the Prophet. So no surprise there. They just fulfilled another prophecy of Islam. They forgot their religion and focused on earthly matters. If only theyd been like the Rashideen and the Prophet and stayed that way, but alas, it wasnt meant to be as the Prophet pointed out.

This is in essence what YOU are telling ME.

Then you havent really gotten my point yet.

There is no evidence that life was so wondrous and all Slaves were freed and people lived ooo sooo much better than before.

Read the likes of Muir and those people i mentioned earlier regarding Islam and slavery.

And if you don't think so - just look at modern day Iraq. See what War brings?

And yet, most territories "conquered" by the Muslims made great progress. Also, you know how Iraq was during the Muslim empire right

Islam didn't work in the long run.

Strange, its still alive and prospering. Its principles and teachings are to be found in most of the universal human rights and good and bad :shrug:

If it was supposed to bring about LASTING positive change - well it didn't. Agreed? Anyone can conquer and steal the riches of someone else's labor and they can use that stolen money to prop up their government for awhile. Through the use of propaganda (like putting a man into space) things may even seem like they are going great.

Not agreed and you have just discredited your own argument about Communism and whether any progress is made in Communist countries or just show.

Islam didn't work any better than any other hereditary monarchy's - which was (and IS) the staple of Islamic governmental structure. History has shown this to be fact. I'm not saying it was much worse, it was just more of the same. A typical hereditary monarchy underpinned with monotheism. Classic recipe for disaster!

Haha Nice try. Some of the Calphates established after the Rashideen were monarchies and some very terrible as well, but thats not the fault of Islam my friend. That is my point.

Agreed???

Nope.

 

[Michael]

So what is working?

That appears to be a starving African child. Probably during a feminine. So in this case it appears poor governmental structure or maybe too many people for a limited amount of food stuffs during a time of feminine. Maybe a refugee left alone during war?

Unless the Qur'an comes in chocolate flavor I certainly don't see how "Islam" is going to magically make food appear in this child's belly.

 

[Michael]

In his eyes he never owned a human being. He did not see humans as property. And he himself said that slavery is evil and slavetrading as well, weve been over this.

When I have time I will question this.


So be straight the question is: Did Mohammad hold Slaves?

Lol, im not painting a heaven on earth. People still killed each other. Crime was still there. Why? We go back to the argument about freewill and predestiny.

Then why bother with this "perfect" book and this "perfect" philosophy IF it doesn't bring about long lasting change to create harmony in society? Seems like a waste of time. Communism tried the same thing and failed and just like Communism, Islam, didn't work to make a State anymore peaceful and harmonious than another other of your typical heretical monarchies of the time. Pretty much conquered two rich empires and lived off those spoils for a bit. But, Muslims are still living with this erroneous notion that there once was this great time in the past and they cling to this fantasy thinking that they are going to somehow recreate it in the future (if only we really really really follow the Qur'an this time I know it's gonna work!!!). Like some sort of Islamic Renaissance is magically going to occur.
How much longer do you suppose Muslim people have to keep trying to make this great society before everyone can it a day and all just throw in the towel? Well it's been at least over 1300 years how many more? 20 more years? 50? 200? 1000000000???

At least Communist figured it out in a generation. Geesh….



I prefer Secular Democracy. Is it the best for all people. No. I personally think that maybe the Middle East should stick with what they know best – that being Theocratic Monarchs. Especially ones who the people think are appointed by Allah. That seems to work well enough for them. It’s an antiquated system but ..myeh…

NOTE: The notion of predestined failure suggests that Mohammad knew his teaching was not up to the task. So again one must wonder – why bother?

You just cant accept that Islam did not encourage it but instead sought to abolish it.

I'm not saying that Islam encourages Slavery in and of itself. Sure it was your typical revolution, take from the rich give to the poor .. Ooo Ooo done that, now gather up the men and go kill some other people in the name of a God.

Please – that’s the most tried and true method in History!

I'm saying that because the Qur'an allows for Slavery during times of war, that this "loophole", can and was exploited by unscrupulous people. A more "Perfect" book would be one where such a loophole did not exist.

Don’t you agree?

The fact that legal Slavery and War can be tied to one another is, in my mind, pretty poor ideology.


Wouldn’t you say?



Anyway, you still never told me when the countries in the Middle East, like KSA, Yemen, etc.. made Slavery Illegal. When?

Michael