Veil issue

This bears repeating on one more thread. This is not about America--yet--but it soon will be. In America we have no "racial memory" of gallant knights hidden inside their shiny suits of armor like Europeans have. Everyone is expected to show their face here. It's part of the way we communicate. The only people who hide their faces are robbers and bandits. Anyone who walks around in America with their face hidden from view--except at a Halloween party--is advertising to us that they are dishonorable.

This is more important than speaking our language or eating our pizza or watching our baseball. If you want to live here you have to show us your face. We will not tolerate people going out in public with their faces concealed. We won't talk to you. We won't let you ride our buses, eat in our restaurants, shop in our stores, work in our businesses, or attend our schools. Even if the government tells us we have to, we still won't do it.

For all we know there could be a man hiding under that curtain with a stick of dynamite.
 
The veil is a symbol of male power. They say it prevents men's temptation, as if men should not have any control over themselves, a rule that must have been invented by men. I wonder, do they cover their luxury cars, too, so people won't be tempted to steal them?

In all fairness to Islam, veils were common in western countries, even into the 60's, and it meant the same thing.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Anyone who walks around in America with their face hidden from view--except at a Halloween party--is advertising to us that they are dishonorable.

For all we know there could be a man hiding under that curtain with a stick of dynamite.
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Why would you be so afraid of someone hiding their face?

Is it because you have so many enemies?

Women veil themselves because in Islam the source of all beauty is invisible.

It is the same with Native American religions.

Only barbarians cannot see beyond the material.
 
arkman said:
Why would you be so afraid of someone hiding their face?

Is it because you have so many enemies?

Women veil themselves because in Islam the source of all beauty is invisible.

It is the same with Native American religions.

Only barbarians cannot see beyond the material.
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WOULD YOU WEAR A VEIL ALL THE TIME, IN 99 DEGREE HEAT?:mad:

Only barbarians cannot see beyond the material.
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YEAH, VERY GOOD.
 
**
samcdkey said:
Do they preach that?
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I'm pretty sure they do.

Isn't that the reason for having the last Prophet?
(That being Bahá'u'lláh ;)

OK, I'm talking with a Muslim friend and a Baha’i friend (I said I was Atheist) The Muslim buddy (knowing that I wasn’t Xian) agreed with me that the Bible had many flaws and was wrong on many counts – of course he’d think this, he’s a Muslim, that’s part of the justification for Mohammed coming along and “fixing” things. What he didn’t know that the girl I was friends with is Baha’i. You should have seen the look on his face when she said the same of the Qu’ran and then pointed out what a mess the ME has been (since even before the time of Bahá'u'lláh – which is why God sent him). Quite funny! Needless to say, while she made many valid points (as he had about the Bible)he didn't agree with her - at all.

I was with another Muslim friend of mine (we were talking about religion) when a Hindu friend of mine came in the room. My Muslim friend flat out said Hinduism is stupid and then went on a tirade about how Mohammed was obviously the greatest thing since sliced bread… bla bla bla The Hindu friend said he was an idiot and a misogynous and left. I was kind of shocked he went off like that - as he is usually quite quiet.

Back in MI (the USA) my Xian friend’s father flat our said anyone who hasn’t accepted Christ as Lord will burn in Hell. Done. No argument.

The only people that have (well seemingly) been tolerant of other religions have been my Buddhist friends. Of course they still think practicing Buddhism will bring you closer to leaving the Karma cycle – but hey, if you worship a God go for it, it may even be real (but that God will probably end up reborn and not leave the cycle).

Even when the world was pretty much polytheistic the Jews living in Rome didn’t make so many friends for themselves teaching that they were a chosen people with the only true God. They didn’t even proselytize and people were pissed off. Had Caligula lived another year he would have erected a statue of himself in their sacred temple just because he didn't like their attitude (I mean come on - HE was GOD!!).

The Japanese tossed the Jesuits out of Japan (and killed any Japanese Xian that wouldn’t “de” convert).


Monotheism teaches there is one true God. Other than that I don’t see where the “enlightening” part comes in? Hell, many Muslims (appear) to think that if one is born Muslim and converts to polytheism or ect… that such a person should be killed? Or so my buddy has told me – and he was born in a typical town in the ME. And he wasn't talking about "radical" people - he was referring to his close friends and neighbors.

When I think of the 100’s of millions of Hindi, Africans, Europeans and native Americans who have died in conversion to monotheism - I really don’t see much good it has brought.

samcdkey said:
And they can get along, they have, when the focus is the welfare of the community (and the world) rather than self-interest and profit.
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Well it seems, to me, they get along (with one another) when religion is removed from politics and/or the society is very wealthy – and even then - just tenuously. I can’t think of too many (if any at all) Xians that would be happy to see a Mosque built in their neighborhood (or a Temple for that matter). But in ultra rich UAE they are building Churches – to the distain of some Muslims, but the general populous is rich enough not to care. I wonder what they will think if many Muslims start converting to Xianinity? Do you suppose the tolerance would still hold?
 
spidergoat said:
In all fairness to Islam, veils were common in western countries, even into the 60's, and it meant the same thing.
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In all fairness to humanity - get rid of religion, it is doing more harm than good, and history has a habit (no pun intented) of repeating itself.
 
I agree with stu, abloish religion.

I just can't fathom how much misery and blood has been spilt over something which has no physical proof.
It is just magic stories.

Religion is just another means to divide people.

Its sad to think most humans need the threat of eternal pain and suffering in hell to keep them being good to each other.
And even sadder to think some twist and warp this as an excuse to 'not' be good to each other.

Islam, christianity, Hinduism, get rid of it all! It divides us more then it unites us and no can say it doesn't!
 
Pheegen said:
Mr. G proposes a society that regulates what you can put on your head, and prosecutes you for not wearing the correct 'headware'.

Ok, Mr. G, once you impose that one, what to next? Footwear? How about sunglasses, if you wear them, we can't see if you have some 'evil' doings on your mind.....

Hate to live in your world G.
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Funny you should choose a world to live in that's based on clothing, rather than a world based on I.Q..

At least you're honest.
 
If one wishes to remain wearing veils, why do you come to countries where such is not the cultural norm? If you have no intent to live in a country and become a citizen/subject of said country and become culturally united with said country, then why come to it at all? If you want to keep your culture, remain in your country.
 
Prince_James said:
If one wishes to remain wearing veils, why do you come to countries where such is not the cultural norm? If you have no intent to live in a country and become a citizen/subject of said country and become culturally united with said country, then why come to it at all? If you want to keep your culture, remain in your country.
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Precisely.
 
Pheegen said:
I agree with stu, abloish religion.

Religion is just another means to divide people.
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So is secularism.

Philosophies don't divide. People using philosophy as a tool divide.
Its sad to think most humans need the threat of eternal pain and suffering in hell to keep them being good to each other. And even sadder to think some twist and warp this as an excuse to 'not' be good to each other.
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I'm an atheist. So far, I've never been honored here with a parade.
Islam, christianity, Hinduism, get rid of it all! It divides us more then it unites us and no can say it doesn't!
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I can say it doesn't.

I'm not of the local areligious religion.

It's not enough that I'm an atheist. I'm supposed to also subscribe to the local group-think in order to "fit in".

Sorry. I don't need your religion, either.
 
Michael said:
** I'm pretty sure they do.

Isn't that the reason for having the last Prophet?
(That being Bahá'u'lláh ;)

OK, I'm talking with a Muslim friend and a Baha’i friend (I said I was Atheist) The Muslim buddy (knowing that I wasn’t Xian) agreed with me that the Bible had many flaws and was wrong on many counts – of course he’d think this, he’s a Muslim, that’s part of the justification for Mohammed coming along and “fixing” things. What he didn’t know that the girl I was friends with is Baha’i. You should have seen the look on his face when she said the same of the Qu’ran and then pointed out what a mess the ME has been (since even before the time of Bahá'u'lláh – which is why God sent him). Quite funny! Needless to say, while she made many valid points (as he had about the Bible)he didn't agree with her - at all.

I was with another Muslim friend of mine (we were talking about religion) when a Hindu friend of mine came in the room. My Muslim friend flat out said Hinduism is stupid and then went on a tirade about how Mohammed was obviously the greatest thing since sliced bread… bla bla bla The Hindu friend said he was an idiot and a misogynous and left. I was kind of shocked he went off like that - as he is usually quite quiet.

Back in MI (the USA) my Xian friend’s father flat our said anyone who hasn’t accepted Christ as Lord will burn in Hell. Done. No argument.

The only people that have (well seemingly) been tolerant of other religions have been my Buddhist friends. Of course they still think practicing Buddhism will bring you closer to leaving the Karma cycle – but hey, if you worship a God go for it, it may even be real (but that God will probably end up reborn and not leave the cycle).

Even when the world was pretty much polytheistic the Jews living in Rome didn’t make so many friends for themselves teaching that they were a chosen people with the only true God. They didn’t even proselytize and people were pissed off. Had Caligula lived another year he would have erected a statue of himself in their sacred temple just because he didn't like their attitude (I mean come on - HE was GOD!!).

The Japanese tossed the Jesuits out of Japan (and killed any Japanese Xian that wouldn’t “de” convert).


Monotheism teaches there is one true God. Other than that I don’t see where the “enlightening” part comes in? Hell, many Muslims (appear) to think that if one is born Muslim and converts to polytheism or ect… that such a person should be killed? Or so my buddy has told me – and he was born in a typical town in the ME. And he wasn't talking about "radical" people - he was referring to his close friends and neighbors.

When I think of the 100’s of millions of Hindi, Africans, Europeans and native Americans who have died in conversion to monotheism - I really don’t see much good it has brought.

Well it seems, to me, they get along (with one another) when religion is removed from politics and/or the society is very wealthy – and even then - just tenuously. I can’t think of too many (if any at all) Xians that would be happy to see a Mosque built in their neighborhood (or a Temple for that matter). But in ultra rich UAE they are building Churches – to the distain of some Muslims, but the general populous is rich enough not to care. I wonder what they will think if many Muslims start converting to Xianinity? Do you suppose the tolerance would still hold?
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You missed the atheists. Or do you consider them to be tolerant?;)

What would an atheist think of a former atheist finding "religion again"?
 
samcdkey said:
You missed the atheists. Or do you consider them to be tolerant?;)
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Good point.

Did I mention I am agnostic atheist!

It seems that societies which have experimented with Atheism were mainly communist. They purposely replaced religion with themselves – The Party. The people would now worship The Ideal. It didn’t work.

Perhaps monotheistic religion had a time and a place. Even early Jews believed in multiply Gods, they just worshipped one (well actually really early Jews worshiped a God and a Goddess). In today’s global word Religion will need to be considerably more tolerant than it has been. Xitianity decimated societies across the globe. Whether of good intention or not (yes many Jesuits were fervent in their belief) the ultimate goal was to convert the “heathens” be they Japanese, Chinese, Indian, African or native American.

There’s a reason why monotheism concocted the words gentile, heathen or infidel.


samcdkey said:
What would an atheist think of a former atheist finding "religion again"?
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I’d stone him …

Haaa! Just kidding :)


I’d be surprised – I’ve never known it to happen to one of my atheist friends. Most of my friends are not atheists - most have some sort of belief or another. If they don’t believe in "Gods" they often do believe in sprits or ghosts? It's kind of funny to me - I suppose accepting oblivion is too difficult.

Societies probably work better with some sort of religion. Or else that wouldn’t be the case. Maybe it allows people to toil day after day because they think there is something better for them – after oblivion. Probably.


Anyway, to answer your question, I’d accept their belief. They would know where I am coming from so I don’t think it would be a problem. Unless they felt that I was a sinner and wicked and needed to accept Jesus – then there may be a problem? I wouldn’t be happy having a friend do too much proselytizing – a little is OK though :)
 
The choice of wearing a veil should be given to an individual. I don't know if Britain has any Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but Canada does and it violates the rights of the individual to not allow them to wear a veil.

I think we're making an issue out of nothing. Anyone should be allowed to wear anything, as long as it's not a weapon. Veils should be 100% allowed anywhere. Not allowing it shows intolerance, no matter what you say.
 
terryoh said:
The choice of wearing a veil should be given to an individual. I don't know if Britain has any Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but Canada does and it violates the rights of the individual to not allow them to wear a veil.

I think we're making an issue out of nothing. Anyone should be allowed to wear anything, as long as it's not a weapon. Veils should be 100% allowed anywhere. Not allowing it shows intolerance, no matter what you say.
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people who go on about personal choice really fuck me off. so should the choice of an individual go against what the vast majority want. and you use personal choice like its an excuse..i mean cmon if everything was down to personal choice there would be problems wouldnt there i mean you would get rapists in court going it was my choice or maybe prostitutes whoring themselves in the middle of a high street as its there choice
 
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