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1) Religious people are less intelligent than non-religious people

Incorrect. The average intelligence of the religious is less than the average intelligence of the non-religious however.

2) Where religion and science conflict, science always wins

What do you mean by "win"? Science isn't doing a good job of winning against the teaching of creationism in Kansas. Science also makes mistakes and can be just as incorrect as a religious assertion.

3) “sacred” scriptures contain major internal contradictions indicating they cannot come from an infallible deity.

Correct.

4) The horrific moral code contained in the OT indicates that this didn't come from a deity.

Correct conclusion with bad reasoning. Morals don't objectively exist. They are constructs localized to the minds of humans based on how we judge each other ("Are you mean?" and "Are you valuable?").
 
Incorrect. The average intelligence of the religious is less than the average intelligence of the non-religious however.
How is that different than my statement? Are you stressing "average"? If you were, that is normally assumed that when you compare two different groups as opposed to individuals.

What do you mean by "win"? Science isn't doing a good job of winning against the teaching of creationism in Kansas. Science also makes mistakes and can be just as incorrect as a religious assertion.
"Winning" is where the evidence supports science rather than religion. With regard to creationism, the question is does the evidence support it or evolution? As far as I can see, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of evolution. Certainly the evidence that the Earth is billions of years old (rather than 6,000 as stated in Genesis) is beyond question. I can supply massive references if you like. The teaching of evolution is a political decision guided by religious beliefs. It doesn't impact which one has the best evidence. Science can and does make mistakes but is largely self-correcting since, unlike religion, nothing is regarded as "revealed truth". A scientist that demolishes a long held theory is regard as a hero and wins awards. A religious person who questions the "revealed truth" was, in the past, burned as a heretic.


Correct conclusion with bad reasoning. Morals don't objectively exist. They are constructs localized to the minds of humans based on how we judge each other ("Are you mean?" and "Are you valuable?").
I agree that morals don't objectively exist but I was comparing one set of moral codes with another. It doesn't matter whether they objectively exist or not. The moral code in the OT is clearly, to me at least, inferior to existing, non-religious moral codes. If it was actually proposed by a deity which is far superior to us, it should be far better than we can conceive on our own. It isn't. Therefore, I take that as a sign the bible is not "revealed truth".

Thank you for attacking my ideas :)
 
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As I’m sure you’ve noticed by now,I love hyperbole and other literary devices. It amazed me that people took my flights of fancy seriously.

We aren't telepaths, Alan. Nobody knows who you are behind the screen, in real life. (I don't think that anybody cares very much either.) All we see are the words that you put up on the screen. If they are what you call 'hyperbole and other literary devices' (otherwise known as 'bullshit') then that's what you're going to be here, until and unless you can produce something better.

When someone attempts to get a rise out of me by using an insulting adjective, I normally try to jack them up until they learn that that approach doesn’t work.

You've been trying to provoke people, to 'jack them up' as you put it, from your very first post. You've bragged about doing it. So please don't even try to play the victim now. You're a troll, nothing more, until you can transform yourself into something more interesting by making some thoughtful or informative posts. Nobody can do that for you, you have to do it yourself. And I sense that your time is running out with the moderators.

Here are the four issues I have raised (with evidence):

1) Religious people are less intelligent than non-religious people

I don't believe that one. It certainly doesn't correspond to my own experience. I've encountered more than my share of seemingly-stupid atheists, while many of the most thoughtful, humane and best-educated people that I've ever known have had some sort of deeply-held religiosity.

Your claim doesn't even make a whole lot of sense, without clarification as to how 'intelligence' is being defined, whether we are talking about individuals or statistical averages for broad populations, how 'religious' and 'non-religious' people are being distinguished, and so on.

It's my observation that both the religious and non-religious classes present us with complete ranges on just about every variable. There's tremendous overlap. Some individuals within each group perform very badly, while others do very well. So right out of the gate, it's simply foolish to suggest that all members of one class are going to out-perform all members of another class. It's equally foolish to suggest that an individual non-religious person will be smarter than another religious individual, based on nothing more than their respective religiosities.

And keep in mind that as a group, people who claim no religious adherence perform very near the national average in terms of percentage with university degrees. A number of religious groups have a significantly higher statistical likelihood of having graduated. (And a number are lower as well.)

2) Where religion and science conflict, science always wins

That assumes that religion and science are directly competing by producing explanations for earthly physical phenomena.

It's true that religions often include ancient cosmogonic myths, but it isn't clear that those myths were ever intended to be science-style explanations or that they must be taken literally by people today as if they were accounts of actual historical events. Mythical cosmogonies usually have different sorts of philosophical points to make, expressed in ancient story-form. But myths shouldn't just be dismissed, since they are how ancient philosophical ideas were expressed in the millenia before the appearance of philosophy-proper.

I'll even go farther and say that in the area of spiritual psychology, a number of religious traditions probably can give modern Western psychology a real run for its money. The Buddhists and Hindu yoga have several thousand years experience with meditation and introspective mindfulness that academic psychologists are only beginning to appreciate. Some forms of Christianity and Islam have fascinating contemplative traditions as well.

And there's the whole artistic, ethical, emotional and, some would say, salvific side of religion. Those are what most religious people would identify as the central and most important aspects of their traditions and they are concerns that science doesn't even really try to address.

3) “sacred” scriptures contain major internal contradictions indicating they cannot come from an infallible deity.

Maybe the deity isn't infallible. Or maybe the deity tells particular people what they need to know at a particular time, in a particular circumstance. Maybe different people need to hear different things.

As for me, I think that the world's scriptures were written by human beings. To the extent that they were inspired at all, they were inspired in much the same way that a beautiful sunset might inspire a poem. I don't just dismiss religious scriptures with your simple-minded contempt though, since I believe that they embody the early community's shared spiritual concerns and experiences, along with a tradition's ever-changing understanding of what those things mean in life. That's why I believe that scriptures are best read in terms of the history of ideas.

4) The horrific moral code contained in the OT indicates that this didn't come from a deity.

Probably not. What's interesting to me about Old Testament ethics is how that original savage tribal faith was progressively modified and tamed as Hebrew cultural sensibilities became more sophisticated, by the Prophets, by Jesus, and then by the whole subsequent Judeo-Christian tradition. We can watch similar historical changes taking place in many other religions as well. What we are left with in every case isn't a single monolithic faith, but a wide variety of approaches, understandings and sub-traditions, at many different levels of sophistication.
 
Did everybody notice that I apologized in a previous post? Very un-troll like don't you think?

Almost everyone has hot buttons. A person that wants to manipulate you presses your button by saying "You are a <insulting word or phrase>" Then the person whose button was pressed jerks like a frog and goes off like a rocket (to mix a metaphor :) As long as you have buttons they can press, people can manipulate you. If you don't have any buttons people can press, they can only persuade you. When I see that someone has a button, I press it over and over as fast as I can until they realize that reacting automatically just isn't effective. Then, they are free of me and everyone else.

Identify your buttons and move them inside where no one can reach them. Believe me, it greatly simplifies your life :)
 
He does point out problems with any belief system\lifestyle where only absolutes are accepted or encouraged. I'm not an Atheist for a few reasons but the main one is that i would be lying to people and myself by claiming or believing to be an Atheist. On the other hand, i am not religious either. Alan is perhaps more than saying 'its my opinion that religion is evil' but demanding that everyone agrees. Which is not fine with me but it happens and what if the person demanding it is not very intelligent or even low intelligence but he just doesnt shut up about it or something more common in reality is stronger physically. See these are the problems dealing in absolutes PARTICULARLY involving these we cannot possibly know absolutely.
 
He does point out problems with any belief system\lifestyle where only absolutes are accepted or encouraged. I'm not an Atheist for a few reasons but the main one is that i would be lying to people and myself by claiming or believing to be an Atheist. On the other hand, i am not religious either. Alan is perhaps more than saying 'its my opinion that religion is evil' but demanding that everyone agrees. Which is not fine with me but it happens and what if the person demanding it is not very intelligent or even low intelligence but he just doesnt shut up about it or something more common in reality is stronger physically. See these are the problems dealing in absolutes PARTICULARLY involving these we cannot possibly know absolutely.
My opinion is that religion is an evil aberration.I don't demand anyone agree with me. I revel in disagreement.
 
We aren't telepaths, Alan. Nobody knows who you are behind the screen, in real life. (I don't think that anybody cares very much either.) All we see are the words that you put up on the screen. If they are what you call 'hyperbole and other literary devices' (otherwise known as 'bullshit') then that's what you're going to be here, until and unless you can produce something better.

"(I don't think that anybody cares very much either.)" and "bullshit" are attempts to push my non-existent buttons.

I badly misjudged people's sense of whimsy on this forum. On the atheist/agnostic forums, that kind of hyperbole is common. It's a form of recreation. No one takes it seriously. As I said, I will clearly label hyperbole when I use it in the future so people don't misunderstand.

You've been trying to provoke people, to 'jack them up' as you put it, from your very first post. You've bragged about doing it. So please don't even try to play the victim now. You're a troll, nothing more, until you can transform yourself into something more interesting by making some thoughtful or informative posts. Nobody can do that for you, you have to do it yourself. And I sense that your time is running out with the moderators.
I attacked a group (religious people) agressively. As far as I know, that is allowed. The one time I attacked a person and he commented on it, I apologized. Where did I say I was a victim?[/QUOTE]

Your claim doesn't even make a whole lot of sense, without clarification as to how 'intelligence' is being defined, whether we are talking about individuals or statistical averages for broad populations, how 'religious' and 'non-religious' people are being distinguished, and so on.
Read the Wikkipedia article. The terms and scope are defined there. You rejected the claim without even bothering to read the evidence.

That assumes that religion and science are directly competing by producing explanations for earthly physical phenomena.
The original post specified that it was limited to areas in which scientific and religious approaches could be objectively compared.

I don't just dismiss religious scriptures with your simple-minded contempt
Another attempt to push my non-existent buttons.
 
How is that different than my statement? Are you stressing "average"? If you were, that is normally assumed that when you compare two different groups as opposed to individuals.

You got it. A statistician would assume averages when comparing groups; however, the membership here is not made up of statisticians :). Now that the point is clear, it seems we're in agreement.

"Winning" is where the evidence supports science rather than religion. With regard to creationism, the question is does the evidence support it or evolution? As far as I can see, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of evolution. Certainly the evidence that the Earth is billions of years old (rather than 6,000 as stated in Genesis) is beyond question. I can supply massive references if you like. The teaching of evolution is a political decision guided by religious beliefs. It doesn't impact which one has the best evidence. Science can and does make mistakes but is largely self-correcting since, unlike religion, nothing is regarded as "revealed truth". A scientist that demolishes a long held theory is regard as a hero and wins awards. A religious person who questions the "revealed truth" was, in the past, burned as a heretic.

When you say science is "winning" in cases where it bumps heads with religion, you appear to mean that scientific assertions are often validated by reality via evidence; whereas, religious assertions are often not. I would agree with that statement; however, I personally would not use the word "winning" in this manner as it doesn't carry the narrow definition that you appear to be intending to use.

I agree that morals don't objectively exist but I was comparing one set of moral codes with another. It doesn't matter whether they objectively exist or not. The moral code in the OT is clearly, to me at least, inferior to existing, non-religious moral codes. If it was actually proposed by a deity which is far superior to us, it should be far better than we can conceive on our own. It isn't. Therefore, I take that as a sign the bible is not "revealed truth".

How do you objectively judge one moral code as being better than another if they are both subjective?

Thank you for attacking my ideas :)

You're welcome :3
 
Almost everyone has hot buttons. A person that wants to manipulate you presses your button by saying "You are a <insulting word or phrase>" Then the person whose button was pressed jerks like a frog and goes off like a rocket (to mix a metaphor :) As long as you have buttons they can press, people can manipulate you. If you don't have any buttons people can press, they can only persuade you. When I see that someone has a button, I press it over and over as fast as I can until they realize that reacting automatically just isn't effective. Then, they are free of me and everyone else.
Identify your buttons and move them inside where no one can reach them. Believe me, it greatly simplifies your life :)

this forum is not for FlameWars..if you want flamewars go start a FlameWar thread and keep the insults there..(i am curious to see how the cards work into it..)

this is about respecting the beliefs of others, whether you agree with them or not..
go read the rules..there are standards. i have seen users banned for less..


your not a stupid person..quit acting like one..

as far as your questions..
no i do not believe that the bible is the 'Word' of god..it is Very susceptible to the authors humanity..
i don't follow a book..
 
Moderator note: alanwc has been banned from sciforums for three days.

This ban is for insulting other members, and for reopening a thread previously closed by a moderator, thus overriding a moderator's edit.


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