understanding delusion
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I'm not sure that 'compassion' is something that can be taught. I think that, perhaps, true compassion is something that is 'accessed' within at a certain point of one's 'evolution'. At that stage, I'm not sure that there is any real choice in the matter either. A 'lower' condition is not returned to from a 'higher state'. With food available, one does not decide to return to starvation.Huwy said:
That being said, yes, being 'taught' ('good things') is 'good'. If, on the other hand, one is 'taught' from birth, how much 'choice' does one really have? Almost like being dragged to church and taught (indoctrinated?) from birth onwards? How much 'choice' does one have, really? One can be taught (indoctrinated?) humanism from birth also... Values and morals and ethics that we learn from birth onward from the 'community' in which we happen to be born massively shape who and how we see ourselves. But, that isn't the topic.. sorry..
Not because some fictitious supreme being "tells us" to be compassionate?
How about if instead of that 'fictitious being' (ordinarily taught and quoted by various 'leaders' within society at large) 'teaching' us, it is our parents, teachers at school, friends, employers, books, .... that 'teach' us. Is there really a difference?
Not because of the incentive of being good in the eyes of "god" or getting into "heaven"?
But, one way or another, there is inevitably 'incentive', or we would not waste the time in practice.
My study of psychology / neuroscience is just the particular path i have chosen to be altruistic, and also I find it interesting.
I have never seen evidence of 'altruism' (but I'll accept it, for the moment for the sake of this discussion), but, perhaps (the study and practice of) Xtianity, al Islam, Wicca, Yoga, whatever.. is another's "particular path" that is "chosen" for their reasons, perhaps the pursuit of 'altruism', and they "find (that) interesting"? I don't see all that much difference here....
Live and let live?
A person's capacity for empathy and the ability to think of others, is largely determined by the quality of parenting they receive.
Psychopaths incapable of sympathy or compassion almost always have had shit parenting.
The difference with learning from teachers, parents, is that compassion taught for the purpose of "god" is selfish and based on a lie.
The incentive for being truely compassionate (without some reward from god) is simply knowing you've been compassionate. The incentive IS the act, not a reward from from "god" for doing it.
Thats like
"now johnny, if you be nice to your sister, daddy will give you some icecream!
Instead of Johnny being nice to his sister for the sake of his sister.
Yoga, yeah sure, I've done yoga before its great. Thats helping people.
But Christianity? Islam? Witchcraft? How is that helping people with so many hateful beliefs (to women, homosexuals, etc)??
"yeeeaaah i raised mah son a good christian boy. Now he's in the military beatin up gays and shootin colored folk!!"
Don't get me started on Islam.
Psychopaths incapable of sympathy or compassion almost always have had shit parenting.
The difference with learning from teachers, parents, is that compassion taught for the purpose of "god" is selfish and based on a lie.
The incentive for being truely compassionate (without some reward from god) is simply knowing you've been compassionate. The incentive IS the act, not a reward from from "god" for doing it.
Thats like
"now johnny, if you be nice to your sister, daddy will give you some icecream!
Instead of Johnny being nice to his sister for the sake of his sister.
Yoga, yeah sure, I've done yoga before its great. Thats helping people.
But Christianity? Islam? Witchcraft? How is that helping people with so many hateful beliefs (to women, homosexuals, etc)??
"yeeeaaah i raised mah son a good christian boy. Now he's in the military beatin up gays and shootin colored folk!!"
Don't get me started on Islam.
I'm not sure of this at all. There is genes, brain damage, 'system damage' (glandular, hormonal, something 'physical'), emotional damage (public humiliation at early age, 'love'. etc...), friends, and many other factors appear to have a large influence also...Huwy said:
The difference with learning from teachers, parents, is that compassion taught for the purpose of "god" is selfish and based on a lie.
Who are you to judge the 'heart' of another?
The incentive for being truely compassionate (without some reward from god) is simply knowing you've been compassionate.
I don't believe that for a second. Perhaps it makes one 'feel good'?
Thats like
"now johnny, if you be nice to your sister, daddy will give you some icecream!
Instead of Johnny being nice to his sister for the sake of his sister.
Either way, his sister will appreciate it!
How is that helping people with so many hateful beliefs (to women, homosexuals, etc)??
"yeeeaaah i raised mah son a good christian boy. Now he's in the military beatin up gays and shootin colored folk!!"
Are you not seeing the irony of hating those with 'hateful beliefs'?
You are certainly 'judging and convicting' many with a very broad brush for the hellishness perpetrated by a minority. Are the vast majority of Amerikkkans to be blamed for the insanity of a few that wield political power? Are all 'blacks' to be blamed for that a$$hole that carjacked someone yesterday? I would posit that the vast majority of Xtians live amongst us, unnoticed, like most gays, more than half invisible in their 'socialization' and 'normalcy', never torturing or burning anyone at the stake...
Don't get me started on Islam.
Hahahaha.. OK, thanx for the warning. *__-
I can certainly appreciate and respect your 'passion'.
Perhaps if it weren't directed in such a 'hateful and judgemental' direction (like the worst from any 'path'), if one, indeed, has any choice? Where is the evidence of this (choice of) 'compassion' (for compassion's sake) of which you speak?
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You have just described Works based religion. I am saved by belief in Jesus not by earning heaven. How can someone be compassionate if they are ordered to be? How can one be compassionate by being motivated by a prize? Compassion is a genuine emotion you cannot force yourself to be compassionate and there is no point in faking it. We believe God can see our thoughts He knows what our true emotions and motivations are. So to us faking it is pointless.
But you can inspire people to be compassionate and that is what Jesus did for me. If you think the humanist way will lead everyone to become compassionate then i am very sorry to say society clearly shows different. You think that the world is becoming more compassionate as less and less people believe God? No the exact opposite is coming true. The unbelieving me me me culture of looking after No1 is bearing fruit of an explosion of child abuse, psychological problems, poverty, violence, do you want me to go on?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
nameless said:As a 'science forum' I'd hazard a guess that most people here sport some form of 'scientific' bent. It is very easy (and yes, sometimes downright fun) to poke fun and derision at our more 'challenged' brethren and sistren. The ego loves it. Perhaps this thread, at least this part, points out that 'science' perhaps cannot 'cover all the corners'. For instance, from what branch of science, folks, do we learn COMPASSION? To tell you the truth, I'd rather that all my neighbors 'knew' and practiced 'compassion' then 'particle physics' (if it were an either/or proposition, of course..). Wouldn't you?
Perhaps truly 'understanding delusion' (which the ego would make very difficult! A show of hands folks, 'who has delusions'?? ...See what I mean?would inspire 'compassion' (as the 'battle', maybe, would be on 'home' ground?)?
Just a thought..
Peace
*__-
Well it's interesting that you bring up the division between science and religion on this forum. As I have come to realize from watching all the debates, the ones from the science 'bent' are probably more likely to be speaking the 'word of God'... as they will understand the world and mechanisms that we know of. Obviously if God made the universe then science will know a lot more about him than ancient fabricated religions.
Traditionally people from the religious bent have scoffed at the findings of science, such as evolution and Earth not being the center of the universe etc etc. I would just like people to note the irony here, that religion at every point, turns it's back against the God it claims to know and worship
Anyway... Your point about teaching compassion via religion. True, religion has probably helped to some extent the emergence of our civilised culture, but wether it has done more harm than good I am not sure. I wouldn't trust a christian gun toting yank to have compassion if he is pointing a gun at me, because the good Lord is on his side, isn't he?
We are seeing in the 21st century, that modern secular nations are performing well with regards to compassion without religion playing a role in it. Certainly, many civilised parts of the world no longer need religion to force people to be good. In those parts of the world people can think for themselves and be 'good' without having a God on their side.
Huwy by adding this to your post you have fully revealed your own narrow minded bigoted views. You think Christians are uneducated violent murdering racists.
Huwy most atheist would know this is not true. But you reveal yourself here to all. You are what you hate.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
How observant of you to pick out one social ill and use it to try and blow out a concrete argument. I have already stated my facts in other threads which most of the time theists such as yourself have continually avoided. Secular nations are not without their problems like any other nation, but research suggests that the Christian virtues are best represented in godless societies.
It's funny, because when those riots happened in France, I was thinking "Damn Adstar finally has a comeback..."
It's funny, because when those riots happened in France, I was thinking "Damn Adstar finally has a comeback..."
"""You think that the world is becoming more compassionate as less and less people believe God? No the exact opposite is coming true. The unbelieving me me me culture of looking after No1 is bearing fruit of an explosion of child abuse, psychological problems, poverty, violence, do you want me to go on? """"
I agree that our culture is selfish, but I think it has always been selfish to an extent.
I don't think atheism is responsible for this selfish no1 culture, I think its other factors in modern capitalist society.
At no other time in history has child abuse been LESS tolerable, LESS acceptable than today. At no other time has it been more reported than today.
The problem still exists and it causes me great concern, I would like to address the problem in my career if possible. However I think the problem was actually even worse in the past, when all children were commonly smacked, spanked, and a lot more were actually beaten by their parents.
Actually psychological problems are not exploding, they have always existed, its just now they are starting to be diagnosed a lot more often. (except for the issue of adhd)
Violence, you could blame on immigration, gangs, etc.
Adstar if Jesus inspired you to be compassionate I think thats great, really.
Thats the way I would like to see more Christians, rather than doing it for the way god sees them or for heaven. Why is it so many Christians like george w bush for example, totally ignore the teachings of Jesus? Cause he's a bad christian right?
I agree that our culture is selfish, but I think it has always been selfish to an extent.
I don't think atheism is responsible for this selfish no1 culture, I think its other factors in modern capitalist society.
At no other time in history has child abuse been LESS tolerable, LESS acceptable than today. At no other time has it been more reported than today.
The problem still exists and it causes me great concern, I would like to address the problem in my career if possible. However I think the problem was actually even worse in the past, when all children were commonly smacked, spanked, and a lot more were actually beaten by their parents.
Actually psychological problems are not exploding, they have always existed, its just now they are starting to be diagnosed a lot more often. (except for the issue of adhd)
Violence, you could blame on immigration, gangs, etc.
Adstar if Jesus inspired you to be compassionate I think thats great, really.
Thats the way I would like to see more Christians, rather than doing it for the way god sees them or for heaven. Why is it so many Christians like george w bush for example, totally ignore the teachings of Jesus? Cause he's a bad christian right?
"Oh yes like in france today a real example of a atheist nation living in peace and harmony with all its peoples and cultures........ by the way how many cars where burnt in the spreading street riots in france today?"
Adstar, they are muslims. Every single news source you read says they are muslims.
I have read that some of them are actually shouting "allah hu akbar!!!" while they are rioting. Seriously.
EDIT: I also read one news site saying that so far, 1800 cars have been burnt out in the past 10 days.
Adstar, they are muslims. Every single news source you read says they are muslims.
I have read that some of them are actually shouting "allah hu akbar!!!" while they are rioting. Seriously.
EDIT: I also read one news site saying that so far, 1800 cars have been burnt out in the past 10 days.
KennyJC said:How observant of you to pick out one social ill and use it to try and blow out a concrete argument. I have already stated my facts in other threads which most of the time theists such as yourself have continually avoided. Secular nations are not without their problems like any other nation, but research suggests that the Christian virtues are best represented in godless societies.
It's funny, because when those riots happened in France, I was thinking "Damn Adstar finally has a comeback..."
kenny the thing is that what you see as "christian" nations i do not see as true Christian nations. In fact a "Christian nation" is an oxymoron concept to me. Its like saying a "virgin whore" or a "cold lava".If there ever was a true Christian nation then formed then it would not last a month in this world. Someone would invade it immediately. Imagine a "Christian army" loving their enemies and not resisting the invading force. LOL
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Yes huwy, there are religious extremists doing their best to exploit the deep sense of injustice felt by the mostly north african community. But why do they feel injustice? Because they where brought into france to be a subservient underclass. Brought in to do all the dirty jobs cheap for their greedy french "superiors". Seems these noth african "coolies" are sick of being exploited and looked down upon by the french atheist elite’s. Looks like their cheap labour is going to turn out to be a very very expensive problem.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar if Jesus inspired you to be compassionate I think thats great, really.
A bad Christian? Thing is i do not believe george bush is a Christian. He is a skull and bones, masonic , lucifarian cobalist, illuminist, babylonian whatever you want to call it plant. I don't believe any Christian would ever make it to your oval office. I don't even think a true Christian would ever try to obtain political office.
But i suppose people do not want to hear that. Many "christians" do not want to believe that because they want so much to believe that he is a Christian and many athiest do not want to believe that because they also want to believe george is a Christian.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar
I am interested in the salvation of individuals not this world.
Yes, adstar, that is exactly the problem, that is EXACTLY the problem.
The defeatist theist would rather look forward to death than face the problems and issues they themselves helped to create.
They are Nero's playing while Rome burns.
I am interested in the salvation of individuals not this world.
Yes, adstar, that is exactly the problem, that is EXACTLY the problem.
The defeatist theist would rather look forward to death than face the problems and issues they themselves helped to create.
They are Nero's playing while Rome burns.
Oh, I don't know if you should place such 'faith' in the 'world-view' of science. That 'world-view' has taken some drastic turns and changes throughout the years. It is, again, right in the 'birthing-pains' of a whole new 'vision' unlike any seen before except by mystics and metaphysicians. What will it be in 100 years? 1,000? 100,000? Faith in science and faith in the 'word of god' (wog) both 'walk like a duck'!KennyJC said:
Egoic arrogance regarding one's own 'beliefs' compared (I still don't understand the 'need' to 'compare'? Could it be like children comparing penises?) to the differing 'beliefs' of others is an emotionally charged 'problem' for scientists as well as theists that tends to add the 'emotionally passionate' variable (ad hominem attacks, name calling, intolerance..) to rational, logical discussions of the subject..
I think that the problem is not 'what' you truly 'believe', but 'that' you 'truly believe' anything! That is where the personal 'egoic-emotional neediness' manifests, and when ascendent, distorts and destroys 'reason'. Without a 'heart/head' balance, imbalance results; mentally, emotionally, physically. Killing ('bad') and dieing (not as 'bad' *__- ) for one's 'beliefs' is not uncommon...
I wouldn't trust ANYONE pointing a gun at me, yank, limey, Xtian or Jew! Everyone has their 'god' (YHVH, Allah, revenge, reason, money, country, logic, need, feelings.. whatever you hold in sufficient esteem to 'kill for it' is your 'god'!) on their side!
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here's some thigs i have gleaned explorin about tis. Lucifer is seen by Luciferians to be the liberator of te intellect. which includes occultic knowledge....Adstar said:
for te Christians Lucifer is Satan
For Luciferians Jesu is a complete no-no, and 'God' is a bad god/'Adonay', yet they accept there has to be light and dark, but THIS is the clue about teir mindset
unlike say Tapist philosophical insight about light and dark being complimentary, for the Luciferians they are in constant conflicyt wid each other. now, isn't that te ame minset of the Christins also....?that they be;ieve they can eventually defeat their 'Devfil'?...what?