UFOs in WTC!!

[Xev]

Q: I am glad that I am not the only one who is still - affected - by this.

That sounds horrible - I should wish that everyone is over it - well, never mind.

I don't see how Nelson could look for UFOs in that...I cannot bear to see even a still image of the towers....the damage to the Pentagon is a bit more bearable.

Anyways, I know that Nelson dosen't like America or Americans. So I suppose that I shouldn't be suprised.

But....well....human beings of all nationalities died that day.

Well, enough of that! I'd prefer to hyjack this thread into a memorial of sorts...

 

[Tyler]

I have to admitt Xev, I hate what you just wrote.

I don't understand how people are still "affected" by the attacks. About 3000 people died. I think a lot of Americans are so greatly hurt by this because it "hit close to home". The thing is, I personally don't see it that way (and yes, before some idiot asks me; I do know someone who died that day). It only 'hits close to home' if you (a) didn't know it was coming and (b) were greatly removed from incidents occuring around the world. The fact is, we did know it was coming. September 6th (first few days of school) I read an essay by my history teacher's friend entitled 'The Coming Terror' and between that, my own debates with friends and organized debate, I was not all that surprised when the attack came. In fact, the first thing I thought when I heard it (which was at the beginning of English class) was, hmmmmm, so I wonder which group it was.....and will there be a real war? It wasn't Oh My God!!! like so many other people reacted. I just knew inside my head that it was coming very soon and this was it. And secondly, the intellect should be a little less affected by this, I believe. If you have a firm grasp of what goes on in other countries and, even better, if you have witnessed and seen horrible things, you should realize that 3000 people dieing in an attack is not the worse thing since Pearl Harbour (I love how Americans picked Pearl Harbour to relate it to.......when the Holocaust was much, much worse... Actually, I don't wonder, I know why. It's because Pearl Harbour was an attack on American soil. And Americans, as a society, consider anything that happens to them 10X more of a tragedy than anything that happens to other people). What about all of the torturing that went on under American-supported fascists after WWII?

See, if people as a whole had a better grasp of what has gone on outside of their backyard, we would have a much more realistic society.


"...I cannot bear to see even a still image of the towers"

Why not? It makes you think too much of the 3000 dead? How about looking at a swastika? Can you stand that? Or hows about a picture of Churchill? Can you stand that? What about a picture of the Kremlin circa 1949? Can you stand that?

I should hope not. If you can look at anything Nazi related, that means that you're just another patriot without a firm grasp of reality Xev, and not something I expect of you. Six million (roughly) died because of bigotry, a bigotry far greater than the one that killed your 3000 (which is roughly a 1 Yank:2000 Jews ratio). If you can look at a Nazi picture, then you 'cannot bear' looking at the picture not because of the immense number of death, but because it was American death. Maybe your attitude is that an American life is more important than any other (be it European Jew or whatever), but that certainly is not mine.


By the way, even if it's just that you cant stand thinking about that much death (which would confuse me because you seem quite open about Fascism/Hitler and Communism), I see that as an odd sign of weakness in an otherwise brilliant and rational human being. A picture is a picture, nothing more.

 

[Tyler]

But yes, Nelson, you show a disgusting lack of respect for those who died.

 

[Adam]

I have to agree that looking at that WTC stuff makes me sick. So does looking at mass graves from WW2, the ruins after the nukes were dropped on Japana, mass graves from Bosnia, and so on. Whether we expect these things or not, whether we understand the reasons or not, these acts remain sickening.

 

[Northwind]

Xev,

It looks to me like it could easily be impact debris, yes. However, my brother informs me that he has seen these pics before, and if you blow them up, it is a bird. You can even see the wings flapping.

It could also be an anvil.

I remain very affected by all these events. However, for it takes the form of trying to find out what really happened. i do not for a moment believe the official story. I also do not believe that we have gone after those really responsible. That is what scares me, while Bush the Younger was off securing an oil pipeline for his Big Oil cronies, whoever really did this to us is STILL OUT THERE.

Sorry, went off on a tangent there...

 

[Xev]

Tyler:

I don't understand how people are still "affected" by the attacks. About 3000 people died. I think a lot of Americans are so greatly hurt by this because it "hit close to home".

Naw. Most have forgotten - that peculiar American virtue.

It only 'hits close to home' if you (a) didn't know it was coming and (b) were greatly removed from incidents occuring around the world. The fact is, we did know it was coming. September 6th (first few days of school) I read an essay by my history teacher's friend entitled 'The Coming Terror' and between that, my own debates with friends and organized debate, I was not all that surprised when the attack came

Interesting. A good friend dies after a long battle with cancer....you are not affected?

And secondly, the intellect should be a little less affected by this, I believe. If you have a firm grasp of what goes on in other countries and, even better, if you have witnessed and seen horrible things, you should realize that 3000 people dieing in an attack is not the worse thing since Pearl Harbour (I love how Americans picked Pearl Harbour to relate it to.....

I never claimed it was. The Pearl Harbor rhetoric is mostly media posturing.

I should hope not. If you can look at anything Nazi related, that means that you're just another patriot without a firm grasp of reality Xev, and not something I expect of you.

Callous as it may seem, it's human nature to be more affected by the things that affect ourselves and those close to us than to be affected by things that are relativly distant in time.

You read about a murder - are you as affected by that as you would be by the murder of your sister?

Sorry, but more people would be affected by the murder of thier sister.

Maybe your attitude is that an American life is more important than any other (be it European Jew or whatever), but that certainly is not mine.

By that logic, you ought to be more affected by the Thirty Years War than by the murder of your sister. The rato is about the same.

For the record, I do feel the same revulsion to swasticas, as well as pictures of the camps. I felt quite nauseous after reading a description of Trujillo's regime.

Oh I can deal with it easily enough. I could analyze Nelson's photos if I chose to. But I prefer not to.

If this is weakness, I accept the label with pride.

Edit to add: Adamski, well put.

Northwind: I see, thank you.

 

[Stryder]

As someone previously suggest, although the WTC was a real atrocity, England has suffered at the hands of such atrocities for years.

Take for instance the bombing of London and even the centre of Manchester. Okay so the death tolls weren't as high, which is good, but tourists still roam these green and pleasant lands.

It doesn't take much to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As for the WTC, many people seem to neglect certain information regarding the actual structuring of the building, aluminium melts at a low temperature in comparison to other materials, and the WTC although an innovative design for it's time, was flawed by it's materials. If it had been the ESB then it's structuring might of withheld.

If anyone thinks I do not grieve for the loss of the people from that day, well there is a portion that does and portion that might think a few of them were in the right place.

One portion knows that if I had been able to build what I wanted to build, without questioning the entrapy caused by information passing FLS, then I probably would have been able to get a word out or at least be running round like "Bruce Willis from Twelve Monkeys" trying to get someones attention.

Although the problem would have occured, if I could have got the building evacuated (Now understand I didn't see this event happening before it did) all those people returning home with a near miss, and possibly the buildings still stand could of contributed to so many universal changes at all the same time that it would of caused more than just a chaos reaction. Not just that but the war on terrorism wouldn't now be being fought by so many countries, who are now trying to legislate themselves to work in a more co-operative fashion.

As for those images, it could be a bird, but it's more likely that the RADAR tracking the planes, continued to follow the planes trajectory since know one knew the blip would disappear from RADAR. It fooled the system.

 

[Adam]

You don't fool radar systems like that. The blip would not be there on the scope at all if there was no contact out there for the signal to bounce off. No contact = no blip.

PS: I was a radar specialist, among other things, in the navy.

 

[Tyler]

"Naw. Most have forgotten - that peculiar American virtue."

???
In all honesty I disagree with this. On tv I can still see tons of things relating to it. Though, you would know better than I.



"Interesting. A good friend dies after a long battle with cancer....you are not affected?"

Of course I am. But I don't spend 8 months mulling over it. There's still Oprah shows and other talk shows and morning shows dealing with relatives of victims from the day.



"I never claimed it was. The Pearl Harbor rhetoric is mostly media posturing"

And I never claimed you claimed it was. I know that.



"Callous as it may seem, it's human nature to be more affected by the things that affect ourselves and those close to us than to be affected by things that are relativly distant in time.

You read about a murder - are you as affected by that as you would be by the murder of your sister?

Sorry, but more people would be affected by the murder of thier sister."

More affected, yes. Consider it a worse tragedy, no. Consider it earth-shattering, no. Consider it the biggest thing in the world since the last time my family was attacked, no.



"By that logic, you ought to be more affected by the Thirty Years War than by the murder of your sister. The rato is about the same."

You're mixing up your logic. I would still be more 'affected' by my sister dieing, but I would not consider it the worse of the two as far as tragedies go. One of the first things we heard after Sept. 11th was that this attack would be a huge blow to American ego. Well, it actually did the exact opposite. Trust me, the way things were handled with it, you would think it was WWIII with a nuclear bomb pointed at Washington.



"For the record, I do feel the same revulsion to swasticas, as well as pictures of the camps. I felt quite nauseous after reading a description of Trujillo's regime.

Oh I can deal with it easily enough. I could analyze Nelson's photos if I chose to. But I prefer not to.

If this is weakness, I accept the label with pride."

I maintain, a picture is a picture. Personally, I can realize that and not feel uncomfortable.

 

[Stryder]

Adam,

At the time your talking about a hijacked plane, the question was "Where is it going?", now understand I'm not even sure if the altitude was right, afterall the buildings would of shown up?

The point was that if I was tracking a moving object with the assumption that they have a predesignated destination that the aircraft would be being tracked by dopplers from RADAR and GPS, creating a mergence of dopplers at the crafts position.
(This is why that F117-A has all all the weird angles and dodgy paint work, to bounce the signals, or disrupt them enough to be stealth)

Now all those matrices were following that planes path, and when that plane hit the building, the matrices continued along the path until they lost constituacy (as the wave formations were lashing against themselves to begin with.)

You can suggest that this doesn't happen, but you'll be suprised how many pilots don't want to report UFO's chasing them... especially when it's found just to be a doppler signal from their own craft interfacing with a pocket of EM.

 

[Xev]

Tyler:

"???
In all honesty I disagree with this. On tv I can still see tons of things relating to it. Though, you would know better than I."

"Of course I am. But I don't spend 8 months mulling over it. There's still Oprah shows and other talk shows and morning shows dealing with relatives of victims from the day."

Media posturing, mostly. They are still milking the time kids in Littleton Colorodo started shooting people in their school....and that happened years ago.

I don't watch Oprah or talk shows, so all I really know are the way people around me feel.

Anyways, media people are utter vultures. They'll milk this one for all it's worth - like they did Oklahoma City - until they have a new tragedy to latch onto.

"You're mixing up your logic. I would still be more 'affected' by my sister dieing, but I would not consider it the worse of the two as far as tragedies go."

Nor would I. The Thirty Years War, WWI, WW2, The Chinese Civil War, the Russian Famine of the 'Thirties, hell, even the Mongol hordes were 'worse' tragedies.

However, this one affects me more. Callous or not, I think that that's human nature.

"I maintain, a picture is a picture. Personally, I can realize that and not feel uncomfortable."

We differ there. I do feel uncomfortable.

Stryder, Adamski:

"As for those images, it could be a bird, but it's more likely that the RADAR tracking the planes, continued to follow the planes trajectory since know one knew the blip would disappear from RADAR. It fooled the system."

Would a bird normally show up on radar? It does not seem like it should.....

 

[Adam]

Modern radar systems basically filter out stationary contacts. An air control radar right beside the city will have problems if half the scope is covered with huge blips from buildings. With stationary radars it's easier, you just don't shoe things on teh plot whch aren't moving. At sea you have to taek into account the ship's own movement and speed and all that to work out what is stationary. Even with that, it depends on the particular system; some will still show some stationary stuff.

Those "stealth" planes are pretty good, but not perfect. I'm not sure if this is classified info or not, but during Desert Strom our Jindalee system monitored the F117s flying over Baghdad.

 

[Adam]

Had to dash to the crapper - bad pizza.

Anyway, what was I going to say?

Once we were anchored off an island called Palao Tioman, with about two dozen ships from heaps of coutries. The water was like glass, with the tiniest waves rolling up on the beach. Our Krupp surface radar picked up those tiny little waves moving.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Northwind,

I remain very affected by all these events. However, for it takes the form of trying to find out what really happened. i do not for a moment believe the official story. I also do not believe that we have gone after those really responsible. That is what scares me, while Bush the Younger was off securing an oil pipeline for his Big Oil cronies, whoever really did this to us is STILL OUT THERE.

Tell this to Xev...
She doesn't know it...:bugeye:

Love,
Nelson

 

[Northwind]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Northwind,



Tell this to Xev...
She doesn't know it...:bugeye:

Love,
Nelson

TruthBeater, two things:

Don;t give Xev any shit.

And don't you EVER fucking agree with me again you contemptible piece of shit.

 

[Adam]

Northwind and Q

Congratulations, those are some of the nastiest posts I've seen here. And for what? Because TS thinks aliens were there watching what happened? If someone believes aliens were watching, just as the rest of us were watching, how does that equal ridiculing the event itself?

 

[LaulavaPuu]

It's the anniversery, you know.....eight months ago, we were attacked by a vicious band of thugs, in the name of their perverted and despicable religious ideology. They thought that they could stop us, that they could hit us and we would run. Fools.

And to have revenge and not look coward you decided to bomb thousands of innocent afganistan civilians who had nothing to do with this terrible WTC strike. In the name of your filthy dollar/oil ideology and to show the whole world that who has the biggest guns, toys and toughest cowboy attitude.
They were fools indeed (kamikaze pilots who killed innocent americans). But how does that give you rights to bomb already bombed afaganistan. You aren't even sure if it was Osama and even if it was then how war and placing USA friendly puppet goverment in Afganistan helps you to catch Osama? Well at least you got your oilpipes, your puppet president Bush got lot more popular(succesful wars make patriotics happy), you got dead afganistans(including woman&children) for revenge, you got new police state laws in your country, and you got attention away from possible domestic problems for a while.

9/11 was terrible but the media attention it had and still has all over the world is maybe too big when it comes to casualties? Of course it's different thing when über Americans die than thousands of 3rd world country people who starve to death everyday, but that you don't want to see while watching television and eating your bigmac. And of course as you consume 100-10 000 more times than some 3rd world country people and it makes you part of great western materialism culture and more civilized, doesn't that make your ass more worth media attention too? Who cares if some farm village in afganistan gets bombed, they weren't even white&rich and it happend on other side of the earth.

I just love highly patriotic people. God bless them and the most FREE and DEMOCRATIC country in the world, USA!
You are so noble and wise that of course you can be world police and decide for others even if it ends up the way that benefits USA the most.


This was just to counter Xev's message which almost make me puke. So it was intented to be little pointy. Just some possibilities, but of course you can now say that I have been brainwashed by evil empires anti-Free anti-Democratic propaganda.

It's strange that skeptic doesn't seem to be skeptic towards very oddly acting authority but is higly skeptic when it's something threatening her/his absolute scientific/materialistic world view.

Peace is distant utopia unless miracle happens.

 

[(Q)]

Adam

Northwind and Q
Congratulations, those are some of the nastiest posts I've seen here. And for what? Because TS thinks aliens were there watching what happened? If someone believes aliens were watching, just as the rest of us were watching, how does that equal ridiculing the event itself?

Did you not read Truthseekers opening paragraphs? Did you not *get* what he was saying? I'm not criticizing him for posting the links, although that was pretty stupid. I am criticizing him because he didn't think about the people that died. Instead he was thinking about himself and his ridiculous prophecy. Can't you see how blatantly and viciously selfish and arrogant he is for saying that ?

What were you thinking about when the jets hit the towers ? What were you feeling when the towers crumbled to dust taking the lives of those trapped inside ? Were you thinking about a UFO prophecy you may have dreamed up and then came to the conclusion that *you* were right about UFO's ?

I don't think my posts were "nasty" compared to what Truthseeker wrote. His opening remarks were downright despicable. I would love to see the results of what would happen if Truthseeker repeated those remarks face to face to someone who lost a loved one on September 11.

 

[Adam]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker

In that strange morning of September, last year, I walked to the kitchen to have my breakfast when I've met my homestay parent there, staring at the TV, speachless. I looked at it. My eyes became fuzzy as the tears came to my eyes.

Apart from the UFO bullshit, that's what TS said in his opening paragraphs.

As for myself, I wa son IRC at the time. Someone entered the channel and said "A plane just flew into the WTC!" I thought it was some joke he'd been on about with others earlier, because I had no idea what he wa son about. The dude insisted we all go look at our TVs, so I did. At first I thought it was some publicity stunt for a movie or something, some fancy special effects. Then it switched from that picture to a news guy talking, and I flipped through all the channels to find the same thing. Yes, for years I had been expecting something, for someone to do some kind of bombing in the USA. But I found it very hard to believe, like I was watching a movie. I watched it for hours. I think I eventually started thinking "Well, I knew something was gonna happen, but those were just civilians. Those buildings have child-care centres in them. I hate people. Peope suck." Watching those people just leap off the buildings was one of the more disgusting things I've ever seen.

Then all the emergency plans were happening. I was impressed. The president vanished, as he was supposed to. His top people all went immediately into secure locations. Air traffic stopped amazingly fast, that was very well done. Emergency services in NYC got into their jobs brilliantly, and I must say I have a huge amount of respect for them; they immediately stepped into thier roles, very well organised, and did everything they could. I was also impressed that New Yorkers donated more blood than the blood donation centres could cope with, queues lining up for miles to give a little. I was very impressed with Mayor Guliani.

A couple of days later I saw on TV some guy in the street being interviewed. He said something like "We should be over there blowing them up right now!" The reporter asked "Who?" The guys said "I dunno, all of them!" But Bush waited, and listened to his advisors. Whether you like or loathe Bush, he's had to deal with one of the crappiest situations a US president has had to deal with, and he did listen to his advisors rather than simply react.

Whether there is evidence against UBL and the Taliban or not, the fact remains that I have wanted the Taliban crushed for years. They are gone now. That is at least one positive result of the USA's response.

All in all, like I said somewhere else, it sickened me. I hate seeing humans do such things to each other. I'm not really concerned with religious and political differences. These were all humans, and they fucked each other up. It shouldn't happen.

 

[Xev]

Adam: Actually, this is:

I KNEW it! When I woke up that morning with the strange intuition that my prophecy was real, I knew that I had to look for UFOs. And so did I. In that strange morning of September, last year, I walked to the kitchen to have my breakfast when I've met my homestay parent there, staring at the TV, speachless. I looked at it. My eyes became fuzzy as the tears came to my eyes. My hair straighted up as if I've had seen a ghost: my prophecy WAS real.

As I looked, I payed attention. My eyes stared at the TV looking for them. I looked to the smoke, an object moving fast. I didn't know if it was what I was looking for. Suddenly, an object pass really fast from one side to another, I though it was only dust (later, today, I would discover it was not...). I went to school. I continued watching it. And as the two towers came down and I saw nothing I started to wonder if they know what was going on. They have already been once in that city, followed by jets, they turned off the electricity. For one day, the city was in darkness. In the second time, it was longer.

I didn't understand why would they disappear in such moment. Today, as I see those videos, I'm again speachless for the fact that I know what's really going on here. And I ask myself, how do they know what will happen and when...

Here the videos and some things about it.
Fell free to criticize...

In other words, Nelson immediatly started looking for UFOs. That, I think, is Q's criticism. That instead of worrying about the people inside, Nelson worried about his prophecies.

Also, I think that the Q's assessment of the situation is influenced by Nelson's previous anti-American ranting.

I will not comment on this, just try to clarify. Nelson's assessment and reaction is between him and his conscience.

It all depends. I find HIV's viral structure to be absolutly fascinating, as I do many virii and bacteria. This does not mean that I have no compassion for those afflicted....

Perhaps an anology could be drawn here. Perhaps not.

In any case, I apologize for the way I allowed emotion to creep into my previous posts.