Trying to hard to believe

[jayleew]

I hear this all the time in spite of things like:
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

And it doesn't stop Christians from enforcing certain Old Testament laws, like those against homosexuality. And if the OT was so invalid, why do they keep it around? And the OT describes the origin of everything in Genesis. So let's not pretend it doesn't exist and isn't influential.

Most of all, if Jesus wasn't supernatural, then "abiding in Christ" makes no sense whatsoever, nor does salvation, or being redeemed, or sin, or any other Christian catchphrase.

If Jesus said things like this:
“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Then you have to wonder how so many Christian children survive the experience.

It isn't supposed to be invalid, it is revised rather. It's amended, no longer it is about doing, but Jesus said just thinking sin is sin. Yeah, I don't agree with Christians enforcing OT laws against homosexuality.

You are right about abiding in Christ makes no sense if Jesus wasn't divine. That is the point of this thread. I just can't do it no matter how hard I try to appease the ones I love because I don't believe. Is it even worth keeping an open mind about? It's all tiresome rhetoric. I digress.

 

[arauca]

Ha ha very interesting . All this pagans are former mislead Christian ?

 

[spidergoat]

It isn't supposed to be invalid, it is revised rather. It's amended, no longer it is about doing, but Jesus said just thinking sin is sin. Yeah, I don't agree with Christians enforcing OT laws against homosexuality.

You are right about abiding in Christ makes no sense if Jesus wasn't divine. That is the point of this thread. I just can't do it no matter how hard I try to appease the ones I love because I don't believe. Is it even worth keeping an open mind about? It's all tiresome rhetoric. I digress.

I understand your position, and I certainly wouldn't want to influence you to do anything that would jeopardize the peace in your family. But I do enjoy discussing these issues.

 

[jayleew]

None of the apologetics you gleaned from your wife' church make any sense. Jesus never exempts anyone from the law; in fact, he says explicitly that he has come to uphold the law. (Matthew 5:17-19, Luke 16:17, John7:19)

To uphold yes, to those who follow the law, they must follow it to the letter. It is impossible to live by the laws that Christ revised. This is why Christians accept Christ as their savior because they know they can't measure up to the law. The way you follow Christ is not through the Bible, but through the spirit. The Bible is meant as a starting point, a source of inspiration, and guidelines to what is deemed immoral by this God.

 

[spidergoat]

To uphold yes, to those who follow the law, they must follow it to the letter. It is impossible to live by the laws that Christ revised. This is why Christians accept Christ as their savior because they know they can't measure up to the law. The way you follow Christ is not through the Bible, but through the spirit. The Bible is meant as a starting point, a source of inspiration, and guidelines to what is deemed immoral by this God.

Is it really a good thing to teach people that you are never good enough? I mean what kind of morality teaches that you are always a failure no matter what you do?

 

[billvon]

Is it really a good thing to teach people that you are never good enough?

I think it is a good thing to teach people that no one is perfect. We are, as they say, only human. Living with that lack of perfection is something everyone has to learn to deal with.

 

[Balerion]

To uphold yes, to those who follow the law, they must follow it to the letter. It is impossible to live by the laws that Christ revised.

That makes no sense. First of all, he didn't revise anything. He emphasized faith, and made God and heaven accessible, but he didn't revise the law. He also didn't create new laws that were impossible to follow. There would be no sense in doing that, and he makes it clear that not following his mandate would result in hellfire. He didn't keep two sets of books, allowing Jews to follow the old laws and Christians to simply believe in him. For one, there were no Christians at the time; he was preaching as a Jew to the Jews for the purpose of fulfilling a Jewish prophecy which mandates, among other things, that the Torah be observed in full. The laws were for everyone. He didn't differentiate.

This is why Christians accept Christ as their savior because they know they can't measure up to the law.

This is also incorrect. Well, I can't speak for Christians who don't understand the scripture, but the object of Jesus' birth was to usher in the Messianic era and to bring about an earthly kingdom of heaven. It has nothing to do with mollycoddling wayward Christians who can't follow the rules of their faith.

The way you follow Christ is not through the Bible, but through the spirit.

It's both, actually. If you believe in Jesus but violate the laws, you're going to spend an eternity in hell. If you follow the law but don't believe in Jesus, same deal. Acts and faith.

The Bible is meant as a starting point, a source of inspiration, and guidelines to what is deemed immoral by this God.

No, it's meant to be obeyed in full. If it were offered merely as a guideline, we'd probably live in a different world. But, sadly, it's law.

 

[spidergoat]

I think it is a good thing to teach people that no one is perfect. We are, as they say, only human. Living with that lack of perfection is something everyone has to learn to deal with.

Speak for yourself. There is no ideal human being, therefore no such thing as perfection.

 

[Balerion]

I think it is a good thing to teach people that no one is perfect. We are, as they say, only human. Living with that lack of perfection is something everyone has to learn to deal with.

There's a difference between knowing your limitations and believing yourself to be unworthy. One is healthy, the other is self-flagellation.

 

[billvon]

There's a difference between knowing your limitations and believing yourself to be unworthy. One is healthy, the other is self-flagellation.

Agreed. Being imperfect - while trying to better oneself - is the hallmark of the human condition. No one succeeds completely, but even partial success is success, not failure.

 

[billvon]

Speak for yourself. There is no ideal human being, therefore no such thing as perfection.

Exactly. And that is a good lesson to teach. No one will ever be perfect.

 

[spidergoat]

Exactly. And that is a good lesson to teach. No one will ever be perfect.

I disagree.

True perfection seems imperfect,
yet it is perfectly itself.

 

[lightgigantic]

Speak for yourself. There is no ideal human being, therefore no such thing as perfection.

“Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent instantly recognizes genius.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle

 

[lightgigantic]

I disagree.

True perfection seems imperfect,
yet it is perfectly itself.

if billvon is perfect, exactly on what grounds are you disagreeing with him?

 

[spidergoat]

if billvon is perfect, exactly on what grounds are you disagreeing with him?

He is perfectly wrong.

 

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew,

Jan, you've taken everything I've said out of context from what I said. Every statement I made is meant to be interpreted as a whole.

There is no ''whole'' jaylew, that's the point.

Personal feelings can, will, and do get in the way of a good decision.

???

If you can't remove your God glasses for a moment then we have no common ground to communicate.

Yet another device.
We are in a discussion, you are against, I am for, this is all the common ground we need to communicate. However if my questions are a little hard
to answer feel free to bow out.

We are not communicating, so I will try to break it down further so there hopefully isn't as much to be take out of context and therefore meaning lost.

No. You're refusing to communicate because I'm asking questions that you cannot or will not answer even though you believe your points are reasonable and rational, when in fact they are simply cliches.

You're an atheist. I get it. But you're not, nor have you ever been a theist, and now you're making stuff up about what you think the scriptures mean and using that to justify
you're natural position.

In a nutshell, I am saying that it is a simpler scenario to believe that the feats Jesus performed were exaggerated than to believe a supernatural force was involved because the Christians at the time had motive to fabricate the story.

In a nutshell, you or I don't know what happened because we weren't there.
If you believe this, fine. But that's all it is, a belief.

I'm not concluding that that is enough to say if it is true that Jesus performed supernatural feats or that it is not true, just that it is easier to believe, personal experience aside.

Here's another look at your real nature. Who cares whether or not Jesus performed supernatural feats?
Do you think those feats are reason behind everybody's belief in him?

If the events were exaggerated, then I have no reason to believe that anything I experience now is not simply the explanation that science gives. I simply lack the "burning bush" experience.

Of course you do, because that's where you're at.
Do you really think you can just turn on belief like a tap?
Do you think that's how sprituality works?

Look at all the characters from the Bible: all the heroes. Most were normal folk lifted up out of their situation. Abraham did not even know God until God showed up. The same is true with Moses. They knew gods, but not God. All these normal, godless/false god people...yet God still communicated with them. Why don't we all have these personal experiences to draw belief from? What choice do I have other than to look at the events in the Bible and consider them mythical without personal experience?

If I chose to believe them, then where do I draw the line with believing things without personal experience?

Jaylew, can you give your explanation of spirituality?

I'm sorry for all the questions, but I think you're making too many assumptions, and as such missing out meaning and detail.

jan.

 

[jayleew]

No. You're refusing to communicate because I'm asking questions that you cannot or will not answer even though you believe your points are reasonable and rational, when in fact they are simply cliches.

If I was refusing to communicate we wouldn't still be communicating.
I will answer your questions if that is what you want.

You're an atheist. I get it. But you're not, nor have you ever been a theist, and now you're making stuff up about what you think the scriptures mean and using that to justify
you're natural position.

You judge me to be an atheist and never a theist. Do you even know my name?

In a nutshell, you or I don't know what happened because we weren't there.
If you believe this, fine. But that's all it is, a belief.

Yes, that is all it is. A belief.

Here's another look at your real nature. Who cares whether or not Jesus performed supernatural feats?
Do you think those feats are reason behind everybody's belief in him?

No, those reasons are not the point of believing.

Of course you do, because that's where you're at.
Do you really think you can just turn on belief like a tap?

Yes. Perhaps I am unique in that way, but yes I am able to put aside my doubts and simply believe. Otherwise I would not eat food I did not believe was safe, or get in my car for fear of me crashing, or anything like that. I choose to believe that I will not get sick eating at McDonald's. Putting aside doubts and believing is an everyday occurrence. At any point, I can start believing that cars are too unsafe to drive and that McDonald's will kill me. The evidence is there, but what do I believe? Belief is a switch, but perhaps only I have one?

Do you think that's how sprituality works?

No, spirituality works like a relationship.

Jaylew, can you give your explanation of spirituality?

It is like a relationship of two entities. Say, for example, music. My relationship with music is spiritual. It is emotional and physical. It is trusting and believing. It is safety and oneness. It is peace and understanding. It is moral and addicting. I could go on and on. Spirituality is everything and beautiful.

 

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew,

You judge me to be an atheist and never a theist. Do you even know my name?

Do I need to know your name?
If you were a theist then you shouldn't have a problem in explaining why you were. Okay?

Yes, that is all it is. A belief.

You make ''belief'' sound like it's a nothing thing, like it's not a life-changing development, or un-development.
Belief doesn't develop without some kind of experience and the thing is, you haven't had an experience that validates theism, which is why you aren't a theist (unless you have but chose not to disclose it).

No, those reasons are not the point of believing.

So why do you keep banging on about it, to the point where it seems to be the straw that broke the camels back with regard to your ''decision''>?

Yes. Perhaps I am unique in that way, but yes I am able to put aside my doubts and simply believe.

Jaylew, you're just kidding yourself. You most probably said you believed because it fitted with your life situation, but there's no way you believed simply because nothing you say has any indication, of comprehension of spirituality (outside of a materialist notion).

You're an atheist, you always was an atheist, and now you feel it's time to stop pretending, and I couldn't agree with you more. Just be yourself.

Otherwise I would not eat food I did not believe was safe, or get in my car for fear of me crashing, or anything like that. I choose to believe that I will not get sick eating at McDonald's. Putting aside doubts and believing is an everyday occurrence. At any point, I can start believing that cars are too unsafe to drive and that McDonald's will kill me. The evidence is there, but what do I believe? Belief is a switch, but perhaps only I have one?

That's not the kind of belief I'm talking about, but the fact that you think it is only validates my point.

No, spirituality works like a relationship.

It is like a relationship of two entities. Say, for example, music. My relationship with music is spiritual. It is emotional and physical. It is trusting and believing. It is safety and oneness. It is peace and understanding. It is moral and addicting. I could go on and on. Spirituality is everything and beautiful.

I get that, just like at a secular funeral they may say a poem (instead of offering prayers to God), while showing bunny rabbit on the overhead projecter, followed by a minute's silence. While that may come across a spiritual to you and lot's of other people, it isn't.

Spiritual, is the essence, the exact thing that makes it THAT thing. Spirituality is the process to realise this.
With the living being, the essential thing is the spirit soul, and God is the reservoir from which that soul comes.
So ''spirituality'' is realising who and what we are, and where we came from.

jan.

 

[elte]

Otherwise I would not eat food I did not believe was safe, or get in my car for fear of me crashing, or anything like that. I choose to believe that I will not get sick eating at McDonald's. Putting aside doubts and believing is an everyday occurrence. At any point, I can start believing that cars are too unsafe to drive and that McDonald's will kill me. The evidence is there, but what do I believe? Belief is a switch, but perhaps only I have one?

(Hopefully that really is your quote that I pasted in) I don't think those beliefs are chosen, rather they form based on what you've learned. For example, most of the time a car trip turns out very safely. If you knew that most people who travel in cars got into crashes, i think that you wouldn't be able to help believing that cars are dangerous transportation. That's how it is for me and I think, most everyone, anyways.

I think if one were suspicious of an eating place, they might try to weigh the risks and consequences and then decide in favor of eating there and try to forget the doubts if they can. The belief is formed, but one just tries to keep it out of mind sometimes.

 

[wynn]

Exactly. And that is a good lesson to teach. No one will ever be perfect.

Then why bother with trying to better oneself - if, as per your idea, one is bound to never reach the goal anyway?