Trying to hard to believe

[gmilam]

But not the disciples. They didn't all agree on the resurrection. For instance Mary seems to have felt that the resurrection was a resurrection of the spirit, kind of a personal gnosis, not literal.

And Paul never even mentions a resurrection...

 

[arauca]

Well I come to the North,in the 1959, Please don't give me the BS of women slave , most were nice polite and modest people. In the city there was order , there were no gang banger . The Jews were the business people, even the whole Hollywood was in the hands of Jews, your homosexual were in the closed and the society was polite , the society did not use so much as now profanity.. I really don't know if you were a live or perhaps in your fathers testicle.
Now If you were a live and of age Why did you not go South and protest the discrimination ?
"You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that you would prefer to live in this kind of country. It was horrible! And it was Christianity that made it possible." How you dare to be such LAIR ,

 

[gmilam]

Well I come to the North,in the 1959, Please don't give me the BS of women slave , most were nice polite and modest people. In the city there was order , there were no gang banger . The Jews were the business people, even the whole Hollywood was in the hands of Jews, your homosexual were in the closed and the society was polite , the society did not use so much as now profanity.. I really don't know if you were a live or perhaps in your fathers testicle.
Now If you were a live and of age Why did you not go South and protest the discrimination ?
"You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that you would prefer to live in this kind of country. It was horrible! And it was Christianity that made it possible." How you dare to be such LAIR ,

Translation: Back in the good old days when women, blacks and queers knew their place! :bugeye:

 

[spidergoat]

Well I come to the North,in the 1959, Please don't give me the BS of women slave , most were nice polite and modest people. In the city there was order , there were no gang banger . The Jews were the business people, even the whole Hollywood was in the hands of Jews, your homosexual were in the closed and the society was polite , the society did not use so much as now profanity.. I really don't know if you were a live or perhaps in your fathers testicle.
Now If you were a live and of age Why did you not go South and protest the discrimination ?
"You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that you would prefer to live in this kind of country. It was horrible! And it was Christianity that made it possible." How you dare to be such LAIR ,

Charming... bigotry, ignorance, and anti-semitism all rolled into one naive package. Just like the time period you describe.

 

[Balerion]

Charming... bigotry, ignorance, and anti-semitism all rolled into one naive package. Just like the time period you describe.

One more for the ignore list.

 

[Balerion]

Whether or not you believe in God and Jesus, doesn't this seem like a pretty good approach to life? Wouldn't God and Jesus approve? Jesus especially was not a proud man and he would not be angry if you did not believe in him, so long as you tried to adopt his teachings anyway. That's pretty much what our Christian friends keep telling my wife and me.

They're full of shit. No idea where some of these modern pictures of Jesus come from. He wouldn't be mad if you didn't believe in him? Since when?

I think it's a dangerous game saying we should adopt Jesus' philosophy. His teachings were not moral, they were predicated on the assumptions that he was the son of God and that the end of the world was at hand. Most of what he says requires both of those things to be true for them to be considered good or wise. Giving no thought for the morrow only makes sense if there's no tomorrow to give a thought for. Turning the other cheek is only wise if there isn't a lifetime of torment to face as a result of your capitulation (ask any kid who has been bullied what turning the other cheek gets them).

Most of what that clown said was flat-out wicked. There are better sources for morality than the Nazarene.

 

[spidergoat]

You are forgetting to tell that there were different sect of Jews and one of them were the The way later it become Nazarene and tin the outside Israel in ? Antiokia ? it become coined Christian, The Jews were persecuted in the land of Palestine, for rebellion against the roman empire . The Christian were persecuted for different reasons . for their believe.

Christians in the Roman empire were persecuted, not exactly for their beliefs, which would have been acceptable to Rome, but for not going through the motions to acknowledge Roman Gods.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Well I come to the North,in the 1959, Please don't give me the BS of women slave , most were nice polite and modest people.

So were the "negroes" or "colored people," as they were known in those days. When you're oppressed, you don't dare act proudly.

In the city there was order , there were no gang banger .

That's the same thing the Nazis said.

The Jews were the business people,

The reason the Jews were Europe's bankers is that the Christians were too stupid to translate the Torah correctly. They believed that God told them that loaning money at interest was a sin, so none of them were willing to do it. The Jews could all read the Torah (all male Jews are expected to be able to read and write in Hebrew) and they understood that the sin was usury (charging excessively high interest), not simply loaning money. So they loaned the Christians money and kept them from destroying their own economy out of religious ignorance. For their thanks they were persecuted.

even the whole Hollywood was in the hands of Jews. . . .

Persecuted people often resort to the entertainment industry because so many others are closed off to them. In the decades after slavery, when Afro-Americans were "free" but could still not get good jobs, many of them became musicians.

your homosexuals were in the closet. . . .

Is that supposed to be a good thing??? My wife and I have many gay friends who suffered under that "closeting" in the 1950s. You're a real putz if you think that was good!

and the society was polite , the society did not use so much as now profanity.

Oh fuck off.

I really don't know if you were alive or perhaps in your fathers testicle.

I was born in 1943. I observed all of this, but I was too young to try to change it. In the 1960s my generation rose up and started repairing all of these horrible conditions. Somehow we overlooked you. You should not have been allowed into our country.

Now If you were alive and of age Why did you not go South and protest the discrimination ?

As I said, I was too young. But I did protest in the 1960s.

"You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that you would prefer to live in this kind of country. It was horrible! And it was Christianity that made it possible." How you dare to be such LAIR ,

I don't think you know anything about my country. I have no idea where you came from, but considering that you can't write an English sentence correctly you are obviously a foreigner.

I think you meant "liar," not "lair." A lair is a cave where bears or wolves sleep. I hope some day you have enough money to take an English class.

 

[billvon]

Turning the other cheek is only wise if there isn't a lifetime of torment to face as a result of your capitulation . . .

And not turning the other cheek is only wise if you want a lifetime of violence to face as the result of your violence.

(ask any kid who has been bullied what turning the other cheek gets them).

That night? And the next day? They get teased. It makes them feel bad.

In 20 years? They live in a beachfront house in Northern California while the bully flips burgers in Burger King, in my experience. Not too bad a result.

Most of what that clown said was flat-out wicked. There are better sources for morality than the Nazarene.

Sure are. There are also a whole lot of worse sources.

 

[arauca]

Translation: Back in the good old days when women, blacks and queers knew their place! :bugeye:

Yes, exclude blacks . I always sympathized with them until I come to this country. In the old country my girlfriend was dark and we called her Negra

 

[arauca]

Charming... bigotry, ignorance, and anti-semitism all rolled into one naive package. Just like the time period you describe.

Pal you are wrong once more , my father was raised as a Jew, Ignorant yes I am of many things , I hope some of your wisdom rubs of on me . Bigot , depend on what

 

[Balerion]

And not turning the other cheek is only wise if you want a lifetime of violence to face as the result of your violence.

Where does a lifetime of violence come into play? Ever heard of victory?

That night? And the next day? They get teased. It makes them feel bad.

In the PG-rated version of that after school special, sure. In reality, they get tormented until they do something to stop the bully from targeting them.

In 20 years? They live in a beachfront house in Northern California while the bully flips burgers in Burger King, in my experience. Not too bad a result.

Again, that's not usually the reality of the situation. Bully victims carry emotional scars for their whole lives, provided that they don't get a gun and kill their teachers and classmates. If bullying were just a little bit of sad time, as you seem to think, it wouldn't be a problem. But it is.

Sure are. There are also a whole lot of worse sources.

As far as I can tell, no one is promoting those worse sources as a good guideline for life.

 

[jayleew]

jayleew,
Did you really think that?
History shows that alot of people were persecuted. It also omits information about alot of people that were persecuted. What's your point?
How does this explain the works (miracles)?
This explains nothing. Now do you understand why you've made nothing clear.
''Supernatural'' means stuff that happens that our current mundane understanding of nature cannot explain. Our understanding of nature does not come from science, science merely explains and allow us to make predictions (in short).
Your understanding of ''supernatural'' seems to have been shaped by the media.
You don't understand the term ''son of God'' do you?
There are lots of records i.e. personal testimony.
For you, there never was a God, so there is no need for you to make this question.
If you are interested in God, then you have to surrender your false ego, the part of you that identifies with this life you live, as all in all.
Please explain what is ''truth''?
If there is any perception or knowledge to be gleaned, outside of ''personal experience'' please feel free to explain.
You experience it all the time, you just simply acknowledge what you like, and discard the rest. We all do it, it's called conditional life.
You've been fooled into thinking there is nothing outside of what the current mainstream science priesthood say, just like back in the day people were fooled into thinking they would burn in hell forever if they didn't believe in Jesus Christ.
Wake up! It's the same old shit with a different method of capture, in line with the movement of time and underdevelopment of consciousness.
jan.

Jan, you've taken everything I've said out of context from what I said. Every statement I made is meant to be interpreted as a whole.

Personal feelings can, will, and do get in the way of a good decision. If you can't remove your God glasses for a moment then we have no common ground to communicate.

We are not communicating, so I will try to break it down further so there hopefully isn't as much to be take out of context and therefore meaning lost. In a nutshell, I am saying that it is a simpler scenario to believe that the feats Jesus performed were exaggerated than to believe a supernatural force was involved because the Christians at the time had motive to fabricate the story.

I'm not concluding that that is enough to say if it is true that Jesus performed supernatural feats or that it is not true, just that it is easier to believe, personal experience aside.

If the events were exaggerated, then I have no reason to believe that anything I experience now is not simply the explanation that science gives. I simply lack the "burning bush" experience.

After you have stepped back, then you can add your personal experience and that of other's into the equation to come to your own personal decision.

Look at all the characters from the Bible: all the heroes. Most were normal folk lifted up out of their situation. Abraham did not even know God until God showed up. The same is true with Moses. They knew gods, but not God. All these normal, godless/false god people...yet God still communicated with them. Why don't we all have these personal experiences to draw belief from? What choice do I have other than to look at the events in the Bible and consider them mythical without personal experience?

If I chose to believe them, then where do I draw the line with believing things without personal experience?

 

[spidergoat]

By the way, the ultimate skeptics? Adam and Eve.

 

[spidergoat]

Pal you are wrong once more , my father was raised as a Jew, Ignorant yes I am of many things , I hope some of your wisdom rubs of on me . Bigot , depend on what

Jews control business? That's what bigots say.

 

[billvon]

Where does a lifetime of violence come into play?

Where physically? Israel and Palestine come to mine. Doesn't seem to have solved their problem. Is more violence the answer there?

In the PG-rated version of that after school special, sure. In reality, they get tormented until they do something to stop the bully from targeting them.

Yep. And ignoring them is a very good way to do that.

Again, that's not usually the reality of the situation. Bully victims carry emotional scars for their whole lives . . . .

Yes, they do. They also carry the emotional scars of failing at things they try, getting their hearts broken by their first love, not being popular . . . . we refer to these things as "experience." Someone who never experiences any of those things is somewhat handicapped, because they won't know how to deal with negative experiences later in their lives.

It's what people take away from such experiences that are important. Some possible take aways:

"There are bad people out there that I have to live with." - pretty good takeaway.
"I stood up for myself and got a broken jaw. Should keep a lower profile." - not the best
"I stood up for myself and gave that shit a concussion! No one better mess with me ever again." - bad

If bullying were just a little bit of sad time, as you seem to think, it wouldn't be a problem.

Sometimes it is a lot of "sad time." How you react to that determines what kind of a person you are.

As far as I can tell, no one is promoting those worse sources as a good guideline for life.

Google "dianetics."

 

[Balerion]

Where physically? Israel and Palestine come to mine. Doesn't seem to have solved their problem. Is more violence the answer there?

And submission by one or the other is a better solution?

Yep. And ignoring them is a very good way to do that.

I'm not aware of any instances in which the bully cared whether or not their target was paying any attention to them. I do know of cases where punching the bully in the mouth solved the problem, however. Such as Casey, the Australian kid who got picked on relentlessly until he finally got fed up and slammed his tormentor. Guess who doesn't get picked on anymore?

I even had a bullying problem in my early teen years. Walking home from school was a nightmare, until I nutted up and decked one of the punks who kept bothering me. I won't say I never had another problem in my academic career, but certainly never from those kids again.

Yes, they do. They also carry the emotional scars of failing at things they try, getting their hearts broken by their first love, not being popular . . . . we refer to these things as "experience." Someone who never experiences any of those things is somewhat handicapped, because they won't know how to deal with negative experiences later in their lives.

Oh, so you're one of those people who thinks depression is just a fancy word for sadness, and other such archaic and antiquated nonsense. The literature is out there for you to find if you're interested, but it can be summed up like this: disappointment and heartbreak is not the same as the emotional trauma that can result from being bullied.

It's what people take away from such experiences that are important. Some possible take aways:

Are you going to include psychological trauma, or is that just hogwash in your uneducated and irrelevant opinion?

"There are bad people out there that I have to live with." - pretty good takeaway.

You don't have to put up with a bully. You can put an end to it. Jerks and annoying people are different than people who actually harass you. You kind of have to live with the former, but allowing the latter to torment you is unhealthy.

"I stood up for myself and got a broken jaw. Should keep a lower profile." - not the best

Should keep a lower profile? So your answer to bullying victims is to shut up and take it?

"I stood up for myself and gave that shit a concussion! No one better mess with me ever again." - bad

What's wrong with that, exactly? Why is it wrong to take a stand for yourself?

Sometimes it is a lot of "sad time." How you react to that determines what kind of a person you are.

Google "dianetics."

Scientology, while not without its dangers, is benign compared to the hokum found in Christianity, or any of the Abrahamic faiths for that matter. And what point are you making when you say Christianity "isn't the worst philosophy?" Plenty of bad ideas aren't the worst possible idea. How is that any defense?

 

[billvon]

And submission by one or the other is a better solution?

If it means peace? Yes.

I'm not aware of any instances in which the bully cared whether or not their target was paying any attention to them. I do know of cases where punching the bully in the mouth solved the problem.

Hmm. Bullies aren't bullies because they are bent on world (or school) domination. They do it because they like the responses they get. Take away the responses they like - no more positive reinforcement of the bully's actions.

Oh, so you're one of those people who thinks depression is just a fancy word for sadness

Nope, it is often a medical condition.

Are you going to include psychological trauma, or is that just hogwash in your uneducated and irrelevant opinion?

Ah, you are one of those people who cannot handle disagreement, and resort to attacks when you run out of rational arguments. Have a nice day; I hope no one punches you in the mouth to solve the problem.

 

[Balerion]

If it means peace? Yes.

You're going to have to explain that one. And why should one side value submission and the abandonment of their cause? What makes that a better option?

Hmm. Bullies aren't bullies because they are bent on world (or school) domination. They do it because they like the responses they get. Take away the responses they like - no more positive reinforcement of the bully's actions.

See, this is why I said you don't know what you're talking about. The reinforcement bullies get from their actions doesn't come from the person being bullied, but from their peers.

Nope, it is often a medical condition.

Something about a broken clock being right twice a day goes here...

Ah, you are one of those people who cannot handle disagreement, and resort to attacks when you run out of rational arguments. Have a nice day; I hope no one punches you in the mouth to solve the problem.

When someone says to me "Bullying victims should shut up about it," I find it hard to take them seriously. It's not a personal attack when it's simply acknowledging your display of ignorance.

And don't think your fleeing takes place after being asked to get into the philosophy of your position; it's easy to make proclamations, but much more difficult to support them. At least for you, it seems.

 

[jayleew]

Tacitus was born in 56CE, after all of these events are alleged to have occurred. I'm looking for eyewitness reports. Don't you think something as amazing as walking on water or rising from the dead would have been reported in real time? Considering, as I already pointed out, that the Romans were as meticulous in their record-keeping as the Nazis.

Yes, I agree. The walking on water and other extraordinary events most certainly would be worth mentioning. I'm thinking that no historian of the day could corroborate the story.

Tacitus was 7 years old during these events (the 7 day fire and persecution of Christians and the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ) and wrote them down after he was governor of the province of Asia. He was a respected historian not quick to write hearsay and use reliable sources.
Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to be genuine and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records.

His references are corroborated by other historical documents.

Do you know what Tacitus's so-called "record" would be called in a modern court of law? "Hearsay"! It would not even be allowed as testimony.

Scholars have also debated the issue of hearsay in the reference by Tacitus. Charles Guignebert argued that "So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless".[56] R. T. France states that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he had heard through Christians.[57] However, Paul R. Eddy has stated that as Rome's preeminent historian, Tacitus was generally known for checking his sources and was not in the habit of reporting gossip.[23] Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."[58]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

As I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Jesus's teachings are something we could all stand to integrate into our lives. It doesn't matter if they were said by a real human being named Jesus, some scholars who wanted to change the world for the better, or a felt frog puppet.

We must discover the wisdom in things we read by analyzing them and imagining how life would be if we adopted them. Not by assessing the authority of the person to whom they are attributed. Argument by authority is a classic logical fallacy that we were all taught to look out for in our first-year university classes.

Notice that Buddha (who was certainly a real flesh-and-blood person and is now quite dead) never wanted anyone to adopt his teachings on his authority. He wanted us to see the wisdom in them and adopt them because they will make us better people. The same can be said of the other famous Eastern "prophets," including Kong Fu Zi ("Confucius") and Lao Zi ("Lao Tzu").

Sure, but what does the gobbledygook phrase "live through Christ" mean to those of us who don't believe in a supernatural universe? Christ is a metaphor for an ideal human being who can forgive everyone for everything and love everyone despite their sins and flaws--and even accept punishment for the things they have done in order to spare them from punishment. Obviously no real human being can do this, but to strive to be as close to that ideal as we can... well dude this is what it means to "live through Christ." One does not have to be a Christian to live that way, and on the other hand calling oneself a Christian is no guarantee that one does in fact live that way.

Several of our Christian friends have told Mrs. Fraggle and me that we are "more Christian" than they are. (I don't know how true that is but I admit it's easy to have a deep reservoir of patience and kindness when you don't have children.) They have gone so far as to tell their pastors that if they somehow make it into heaven they expect to see us there because God can't possibly be so proud, arrogant and selfish as to deny us entry just because we don't believe in him. (Although as I've said before, if dogs don't go to heaven, when I die I want to go where they went.--quote from Will Rogers )

And I say that this should have virtually no impact on your behavior. You should want to be a good person, treat people fairly, give a little more back to civilization than you take out, try to leave this place a little better than you found it. That's all any of us can strive for, even though throughout history a few of us have managed to far exceed that. At least try not to be the next Genghis Khan, who killed a full ten percent of the people his armies could reach with the transportation technology of their era.

Whether or not you believe in God and Jesus, doesn't this seem like a pretty good approach to life? Wouldn't God and Jesus approve? Jesus especially was not a proud man and he would not be angry if you did not believe in him, so long as you tried to adopt his teachings anyway. That's pretty much what our Christian friends keep telling my wife and me.

I certainly appreciate anyone applying the tools of the Scientific Method to the problems of real life. As I've noted before, the Rule of Laplace comes in handy rather often. Nonetheless, don't lose sight of the present. Whether or not Christ was real, Christianity certainly is, and we have to find a way to coexist with it as we wait for it to die out as all religions eventually do. (Remember Zarathustra? I didn't think so. ) Fighting against it is probably not the best thing for your blood pressure--or your marriage.

Start by remembering that you don't have to be a Christian, or even believe that he was real, to take his advice.

Turn the other cheek.

I agree that I don't have to be a Christian, but I try to act according to Christ's universal teachings. Why isn't that enough for my family? Or, why isn't enough for me to ignore their want for me to be a Christian? Right now, I am keeping the peace in the short term by being up front saying, "I don't believe. I will go to church when I feel like going." Their argument is if I don't seek out knowledge, then how will I ever find possibly a missing piece to God's existence from someone who is an authority on the subject of Christianity (Christians). So, they pray and toil for me to go and I go to keep appearances so they know that I am open minded. And, admittedly, sometimes I learn something about how to be a better person. Right now it is working fine.