Torture

[stretched]

LG

not sure what you are saying here
that notions of karma infringe on notions of gratitude?
(maybe you could unpack "gratitude", osho style or otherwise)

What I mean is the transcendence of human ego to a more sublime or honest level. Example (in prayer), "Rather than asking for something, giving thanks to that which I already have" This is an understanding I have, at an extremely fundamental level.

its the nature of institution (regardless of whether it is religious or not) to undermine the principles on which it was established

(for instance the formation of universities was originally meant to "unify" all disciplines of knowledge - now things are so impossibly diverse that even within departments there is practically no communication)

Consequently its the duty of institutions to constantly re-evaluate themselves

I agree with you here.

the thing unique to religion is that it offers the highest opportunity for hypocrisy - the more higher the values, the less likely people (in general) will be able to follow them
from the vedic perspective, this degeneration of religious institutional leaders and their instituitions is due to a corrupted understanding of quality

Yep, but how and WHY is the understanding corrupted?

if you ask practically anyone what it means to be a christian/hindu/muslim they will simply give you answer that reflects externals ("their priests wear these sort of clothes, they worship in buildings that look like this and on tuesdays they this sort of ritual).

I disagree, I think the average Christian would say " Its about my relationship with God/Jesus/Jebus."

If such a state of understanding is the norm, small wonder that the congregations are the way they are and why there is no real impetus (aside from say issues of culture - birth, marriage, death etc) for appeal amongst educated persons

I think mainly that religions, when investigated, turn out to be irrational. One only has to think of Noah. If there was more direct evidence of God or Gods work, this trend would change. But alas, the deeper one digs, the less one finds.

in short, I have had experiences that would make not applying myself to religious discipline irrational.
The evidence that I came in contact with is the association of persons who actually embody qualities of god (not meaning that they could lift a rock that they created to be heavier than they could lift) and could answer my ethical doubts about religion, god, etc.

I tend to agree that this could be a hugely influencing factor. In my experience when meeting so called Priests. etc. the answers have NOT been forthcoming. But from reading various texts (Osho for example) I can gather that there are higher manifestations of human wisdom/spirituality that can be hugely inspiring. Just his 18 Rolls Royces that still bugs me just a tad.

Associating with such persons is clearly indicated as the final requirement for successful spiritual life.

To a certain extent. But this association could be a tool of indoctrination and manipulation. Why not a direct connection to Lord Krishna?

And the absence of this element is what contributes to over 90% of the arguments against god (most atheistic arguments deal not with god, per se, but the people who represent him)

You are probably right about that, but then why does god cock up his representation? Keeps going around in circles doesn`t it? God supplies dodgy reps and we have to go hell because of it. Why is god so friggin reclusive? From the Christian perspective, 4000 years ago he was jumping out from behind every burning bush and smiting on a regular basis. Then 2000 years ago he supposedly pops in for a bit of preaching, washing of feet and a quick cruxifiction death in which he does not really die. And he`s been missing ever since? When last did anyone see Lord Krishna? Get my drift?

 

[QuestionEverything]

Why is god so friggin reclusive? From the Christian perspective, 4000 years ago he was jumping out from behind every burning bush and smiting on a regular basis. Then 2000 years ago he supposedly pops in for a bit of preaching, washing of feet and a quick cruxifiction death in which he does not really die. And he`s been missing ever since? When last did anyone see Lord Krishna? Get my drift?

I see the Christian/Jewish/Muslim god every day. It is only because the true nature of god has been concealed by the priesthood that no one knows who he is. One way this has been accomplished is by attaching the label of evil to the study of information that would reveal the truth. For those who have no idea what the hell I'm talking about, I am referring to astrology. Early civilizations anthropomorphized the stars, planets, and Sun into deities. The god of the "Holy" Bible is the Sun(Saturn/Sun in the old testament). So we all see that god every day (unless it's overcast).

1) The word "holy" was derived from the Greek word Helios, meaning the Sun. "Holy Bible" literally means "Sun Book".

2) Consider certain common sayings such as,
"I am the light of the world"
"I am the light, there is no darkness in me"

3) No man could look at god. Hmm, sound familiar?

4) Jesus was crucified on a cross, was dead for 3 days and then resurrected, born on Dec 25. 3 Kings or wise men followed the "Star in the east" to locate Jesus.

The Sun dies on the cross (N, S, E, W, was represented by a cross) on December 21, is dead for 3 days (it does not move perceptibly from its lowest position in the sky for 3 days) and is resurrected (and thus reborn) on Dec. 25. 3 Kings or stars (the Belt of Orion) follow the star Sirius to locate the Sun on Christmas morning.

The heavens are available for all the world to see every day and every night. It's the greatest story ever told, the story of the stars.

All this applies to Krishna, Horus, and Mithra as well.

 

[lightgigantic]

Stretched

“
not sure what you are saying here
that notions of karma infringe on notions of gratitude?
(maybe you could unpack "gratitude", osho style or otherwise)
”
What I mean is the transcendence of human ego to a more sublime or honest level. Example (in prayer), "Rather than asking for something, giving thanks to that which I already have" This is an understanding I have, at an extremely fundamental level.

ok
that point of bring firmly situated in gratitude is a very difficult proposition in a world where we are trained to manifest symptoms of insanity unless we have a fat wallet in our pocket (or something equivalent)
IOW proper gratitude evolves from dealing with issues like greed/lust etc

“
the thing unique to religion is that it offers the highest opportunity for hypocrisy - the more higher the values, the less likely people (in general) will be able to follow them
from the vedic perspective, this degeneration of religious institutional leaders and their instituitions is due to a corrupted understanding of quality
”
Yep, but how

by having unqualified persons assume the leadership of religious institutions

and WHY is the understanding corrupted?

because that is the default position of having a population devoid of spiritual knowledge

and furthermore, that is why saintly persons or god personally descend to reform religion in human society

“
If such a state of understanding is the norm, small wonder that the congregations are the way they are and why there is no real impetus (aside from say issues of culture - birth, marriage, death etc) for appeal amongst educated persons
”
I think mainly that religions, when investigated, turn out to be irrational. One only has to think of Noah. If there was more direct evidence of God or Gods work, this trend would change. But alas, the deeper one digs, the less one finds.

that isn't everyone's experience will all scriptures

“
in short, I have had experiences that would make not applying myself to religious discipline irrational.
The evidence that I came in contact with is the association of persons who actually embody qualities of god (not meaning that they could lift a rock that they created to be heavier than they could lift) and could answer my ethical doubts about religion, god, etc.
”
I tend to agree that this could be a hugely influencing factor. In my experience when meeting so called Priests. etc. the answers have NOT been forthcoming. But from reading various texts (Osho for example) I can gather that there are higher manifestations of human wisdom/spirituality that can be hugely inspiring. Just his 18 Rolls Royces that still bugs me just a tad.

understanding the qualities of god and understanding the qualities of god's transparent representative go hand in hand

“
Associating with such persons is clearly indicated as the final requirement for successful spiritual life.
”
To a certain extent. But this association could be a tool of indoctrination and manipulation. Why not a direct connection to Lord Krishna?

In our conditioned state we are not properly suited for a direct connection to god.
Addressing this lack is precisely what good association achieves, since our default position is that we are hopelessly trapped by ascribing eternal values to temporary things

(for instance if we have a wrong idea about why we exist and why god exists and why this material world exists, we would only sink further into ignorance by directly associating with god )

therefore we should take, at a bare minimum, these three questions with us when we approach any religious/spiritual discipline

What is our relationship with god and this world?
What is the process that enables one to make spiritual progress?
What is the goal of this process?

IOW for as long as a teaching appears vague and undoable and the goal is unfathomable, you have a good excuse for being a benchwarmer

“
And the absence of this element is what contributes to over 90% of the arguments against god (most atheistic arguments deal not with god, per se, but the people who represent him)
”
You are probably right about that, but then why does god cock up his representation?

if people have sinful desires, they require a weakened ecclesiastical body to fulfill them

Keeps going around in circles doesn`t it? God supplies dodgy reps and we have to go hell because of it. Why is god so friggin reclusive?

that is why god or god's representative frequently appear - to re-establish religious principles

From the Christian perspective, 4000 years ago he was jumping out from behind every burning bush and smiting on a regular basis. Then 2000 years ago he supposedly pops in for a bit of preaching, washing of feet and a quick cruxifiction death in which he does not really die. And he`s been missing ever since? When last did anyone see Lord Krishna? Get my drift?

even from the christian perspective there are many personalities throughout history that have re-established religiosity from the realm of the short and hairy since the disappearance of christ

as for seeing god, when one comes to understand something about how far we are sunk into ignorance (meaning how much we are really not interested in having much to do with god .... unless of course he can play some part in assisting me becoming #1) we can understand why we are for the most part dealing with him indirectly.

The trick to seeing god is to act in such a way that god wants to see you - you can learn about it to a degree from books, but the actual lesson comes from a person already established in that discipline - a person who extols the actual glories of god is way more than a mere mundane moralist who helps little old ladies across the street

 

[Myles]

Hell is an atheist with schizophrenia. He hears voices in his head and does not know which one is empirically sound.

You just made that up. Have you no respect for atheism ? One of these days I'll come over there and smack you.

 

[superluminal]

Hell is an atheist with schizophrenia. He hears voices in his head and does not know which one is empirically sound.

Verrryyy good!

Did you really make that one up? Excellent!

 

[Donnal]

ha ha
you only gotta get accused of being an angel in australia and you too could know what its like to be tortured
aussies are sick fucking thngs when it comes to kiddy abuse in givtment dept's like child safety
even cops been caught with films torturing kids and laughing in the films
well yeah come to australia lberals seem to know the meaning of torture

 

[spidergoat]

You need to build yourself an auto-gyro, Donnal, go where you want, be your own boss...

 

[Myles]

Stretched


ok
that point of bring firmly situated in gratitude is a very difficult proposition in a world where we are trained to manifest symptoms of insanity unless we have a fat wallet in our pocket (or something equivalent)
IOW proper gratitude evolves from dealing with issues like greed/lust etc

by having unqualified persons assume the leadership of religious institutions


because that is the default position of having a population devoid of spiritual knowledge

and furthermore, that is why saintly persons or god personally descend to reform religion in human society

that isn't everyone's experience will all scriptures

understanding the qualities of god and understanding the qualities of god's transparent representative go hand in hand

In our conditioned state we are not properly suited for a direct connection to god.
Addressing this lack is precisely what good association achieves, since our default position is that we are hopelessly trapped by ascribing eternal values to temporary things

(for instance if we have a wrong idea about why we exist and why god exists and why this material world exists, we would only sink further into ignorance by directly associating with god )

therefore we should take, at a bare minimum, these three questions with us when we approach any religious/spiritual discipline

What is our relationship with god and this world?
What is the process that enables one to make spiritual progress?
What is the goal of this process?

IOW for as long as a teaching appears vague and undoable and the goal is unfathomable, you have a good excuse for being a benchwarmer


if people have sinful desires, they require a weakened ecclesiastical body to fulfill them

that is why god or god's representative frequently appear - to re-establish religious principles

even from the christian perspective there are many personalities throughout history that have re-established religiosity from the realm of the short and hairy since the disappearance of christ

as for seeing god, when one comes to understand something about how far we are sunk into ignorance (meaning how much we are really not interested in having much to do with god .... unless of course he can play some part in assisting me becoming #1) we can understand why we are for the most part dealing with him indirectly.

The trick to seeing god is to act in such a way that god wants to see you - you can learn about it to a degree from books, but the actual lesson comes from a person already established in that discipline - a person who extols the actual glories of god is way more than a mere mundane moralist who helps little old ladies across the street

For once you've come close to giving a truthful answer. It's all about trickery; tricking those withot the ability to reason

 

[S.A.M.]

You just made that up. Have you no respect for atheism ? One of these days I'll come over there and smack you.

Yup that I did.

And just try it buster.

Verrryyy good!

Did you really make that one up? Excellent!

Ta.

 

[Myles]

Yup that I did.

And just try it buster.


You clearly have no respect for your betters. From now on please adderess me as Sir

 

[lightgigantic]

[/COLOR]


For once you've come close to giving a truthful answer. It's all about trickery; tricking those withot the ability to reason

there are also tricks to reason as well

 

[stretched]

LG

ok
that point of bring firmly situated in gratitude is a very difficult proposition in a world where we are trained to manifest symptoms of insanity unless we have a fat wallet in our pocket (or something equivalent)

Just takes a bit of experience at the university of life.

by having unqualified persons assume the leadership of religious institutions

Why is this occurring?

because that is the default position of having a population devoid of spiritual knowledge
and furthermore, that is why saintly persons or god personally descend to reform religion in human society

Who are these saintly persons? Have you any current researchable examples?

that isn't everyone's experience will all scriptures

Agreed

understanding the qualities of god and understanding the qualities of god's transparent representative go hand in hand

Accross all religions? Why do Muslim Imams not neccesarily believe that the Pope is a representative of God? In this instance is God confusing the Imam or the Pope?

In our conditioned state we are not properly suited for a direct connection to god.
Addressing this lack is precisely what good association achieves, since our default position is that we are hopelessly trapped by ascribing eternal values to temporary things

This sounds like another good excuse and clever psychobabble. Why is this our elleged defualt position? You are saying, by default, we are hopelessly trapped, yet we get hell for bad karma. Back to the circles.

(for instance if we have a wrong idea about why we exist and why god exists and why this material world exists, we would only sink further into ignorance by directly associating with god )

You are saying its p%ss easy to get it wrong. Essentially we are "set up" to get it wrong? Why?

IOW for as long as a teaching appears vague and undoable and the goal is unfathomable, you have a good excuse for being a benchwarmer

Or of course, it is just plain unfathomable and irrational.

if people have sinful desires, they require a weakened ecclesiastical body to fulfill them

Circles within circles. You can`t win can you?

that is why god or god's representative frequently appear - to re-establish religious principles

Who is the current representative/s?

even from the christian perspective there are many personalities throughout history that have re-established religiosity from the realm of the short and hairy since the disappearance of christ

Is George Bush included here? Example?

as for seeing god, when one comes to understand something about how far we are sunk into ignorance (meaning how much we are really not interested in having much to do with god .... unless of course he can play some part in assisting me becoming #1) we can understand why we are for the most part dealing with him indirectly.

I understand what you are saying here, but who created us (allegedly) in the first place, and who carries the responsibilty for that?

The trick to seeing god is to act in such a way that god wants to see you - you can learn about it to a degree from books, but the actual lesson comes from a person already established in that discipline - a person who extols the actual glories of god is way more than a mere mundane moralist who helps little old ladies across the street

Who is this person in your case?

 

[stretched]

QuestionEverything

Enough already... it`s crystle clear innit?

 

[stretched]

LG

there are also tricks to reason as well

He he. Are you saying there is NO such thing as scizophrenia?

 

[lightgigantic]

LG



He he. Are you saying there is NO such thing as scizophrenia?

I guess I should have also added there are tricks of reason as well

 

[lightgigantic]

Stetched

“

ok
that point of bring firmly situated in gratitude is a very difficult proposition in a world where we are trained to manifest symptoms of insanity unless we have a fat wallet in our pocket (or something equivalent)
”
Just takes a bit of experience at the university of life.

the desire for emancipation is becoming prominent in your neighborhood?

“
by having unqualified persons assume the leadership of religious institutions
”
Why is this occurring?

because that is what people want - a lower standard
(eg - the pope and contraception)

“
because that is the default position of having a population devoid of spiritual knowledge
and furthermore, that is why saintly persons or god personally descend to reform religion in human society
”
Who are these saintly persons? Have you any current researchable examples?

acknowledging the merit of a person's commitment to reformation is something established by history (for instance trying to indicate someone as a great reformer of politics requires the passage of a couple of years to put their feats in proper context - to indicate a current politician as something like "the greatest we have seen in a hundred years" tends to strike a presumptuous chord.

That is not to say that they don't exist - the issue is whether posterity will recognize them

“
understanding the qualities of god and understanding the qualities of god's transparent representative go hand in hand
”
Accross all religions? Why do Muslim Imams not neccesarily believe that the Pope is a representative of God? In this instance is God confusing the Imam or the Pope?

I would argue that such persons do not understand the qualities of god - what to speak of being transparent representatives of god - at midday if you ask any of a billion people where the sun is they will respond "above my head". If they think other people who also make the same statement are obviosuly wrong, it simply indicates their poor fund of knowledge.

“

In our conditioned state we are not properly suited for a direct connection to god.
Addressing this lack is precisely what good association achieves, since our default position is that we are hopelessly trapped by ascribing eternal values to temporary things
”
This sounds like another good excuse and clever psychobabble.

perhaps my reply was too condense

Why is this our elleged defualt position?

constitutionally we are connected to god (IOW constitutionally we have access to something that can actually be designated eternal values rightfully - namely god)
Breaking that "actual" position (in the name of coming to the material world) means that we are breaking our connection with god - that leaves us with the propensity of ascribing eternal values to objects/persons in this world of transience.
If we come back to the position of "actually" accepting god in our life, the cycle of attachment to transient material things is broken

You are saying, by default, we are hopelessly trapped, yet we get hell for bad karma. Back to the circles.

bad karma is just as transient as good karma

“
(for instance if we have a wrong idea about why we exist and why god exists and why this material world exists, we would only sink further into ignorance by directly associating with god )
”
You are saying its p%ss easy to get it wrong.

yes - that is what the material world facilitates - ignorance

Essentially we are "set up" to get it wrong? Why?

we came to the material world for very explicit reasons - to develop a stronger bond with god is not one of them - out of his mercy, god creates this world of illusion to facilitate our desires - so we can pretend to be something we are not (ie separate from god) and have a pretend existence (take birth in a particular body) and undergo a series of pretend delights (and sufferings) from the material heavens to the material hells until we reach the point where we get sick of it, and voluntarily reunite with god much in the same way that we voluntarily disunited from god

“
IOW for as long as a teaching appears vague and undoable and the goal is unfathomable, you have a good excuse for being a benchwarmer
”
Or of course, it is just plain unfathomable and irrational.

if its unfathomable it tends to indicate you don't understand the goal
if it is irrational it tends to indicate you don't understand the ultimate relationships that exist in this world (the body, the material world, god, the self etc)

“
if people have sinful desires, they require a weakened ecclesiastical body to fulfill them
”
Circles within circles. You can`t win can you?

what would you propose in a scenario like this -
people desire to perform criminal activity
to facilitate this desire, a criminal government is elected
because the criminal government is elected, people have more facility for crime

“
that is why god or god's representative frequently appear - to re-establish religious principles
”
Who is the current representative/s?

whatever religious discipline you care to mention, there are numerous persons who are working towards re-establishing religious principles - as I mentioned earlier, they are usually easier to indicate in a historical context

“
even from the christian perspective there are many personalities throughout history that have re-established religiosity from the realm of the short and hairy since the disappearance of christ
”
Is George Bush included here?

lol - I should also mention that the opposite also exists

Example?

origen is a good example of a reformer
constantine is a good example of george bush

The renaissance era also saw a return to philosophy (neoplatonism for eg) after tumbling through thr dark ages
“

as for seeing god, when one comes to understand something about how far we are sunk into ignorance (meaning how much we are really not interested in having much to do with god .... unless of course he can play some part in assisting me becoming #1) we can understand why we are for the most part dealing with him indirectly.
”
I understand what you are saying here, but who created us (allegedly) in the first place, and who carries the responsibilty for that?

eternally we have no relationship with this material world or the concomitant issues of ignorance that arise from it.
We made the decision to come here to experience the variety of being separate from god.

Apparently it was a bad choice

“
The trick to seeing god is to act in such a way that god wants to see you - you can learn about it to a degree from books, but the actual lesson comes from a person already established in that discipline - a person who extols the actual glories of god is way more than a mere mundane moralist who helps little old ladies across the street
”
Who is this person in your case?

there are many people one can learn from - like for instance some seem to embody the proper mood of humility to approach god, some seem to embody the proper mood of compassion to approach god etc etc

There are also persons who seem to display the quality of forward thinking and philosophical introspection and analysis for approaching god. I think it's persons like these who are most suitable for referencing in discussions like this

 

[stretched]

LG

Thanks for trying to clarify my queries. I understand the metaphysical nature of the topic and the difficulty of putting into everyday language that which is subjective and intangible.

Not wanting to waste more of your time I will cap it off with:

the desire for emancipation is becoming prominent in your neighborhood?

In my immediate neighborhood all is good, in the global neighborhood, I perceive emptyness, suffering and a strong odour of decay. But methinks that may just be the smell of rotting flesh, trapped in canine teeth.

because that is what people want - a lower standard

or a much more NATURAL standard, more akin to our genus

That is not to say that they don't exist - the issue is whether posterity will recognize them

Fair enough, but do you believe we exist in an infinite state?

constitutionally we are connected to god (IOW constitutionally we have access to something that can actually be designated eternal values rightfully - namely god)
Breaking that "actual" position (in the name of coming to the material world) means that we are breaking our connection with god - that leaves us with the propensity of ascribing eternal values to objects/persons in this world of transience.
If we come back to the position of "actually" accepting god in our life, the cycle of attachment to transient material things is broken

After an epiphany or cathartic experience perhaps?

bad karma is just as transient as good karma

Why don`t they cancel each other out then?

we came to the material world for very explicit reasons - to develop a stronger bond with god is not one of them - out of his mercy, god creates this world of illusion to facilitate our desires - so we can pretend to be something we are not (ie separate from god) and have a pretend existence (take birth in a particular body) and undergo a series of pretend delights (and sufferings) from the material heavens to the material hells until we reach the point where we get sick of it, and voluntarily reunite with god much in the same way that we voluntarily disunited from god

What is the point? Why go through the whole shebang, just to end up back at the beginning. Where does the path lead to? Where does it end? Does it end?

if its unfathomable it tends to indicate you don't understand the goal

Perhaps.

if it is irrational it tends to indicate you don't understand the ultimate relationships that exist in this world (the body, the material world, god, the self etc)

All is one?

what would you propose in a scenario like this -
people desire to perform criminal activity
to facilitate this desire, a criminal government is elected
because the criminal government is elected, people have more facility for crime

The question would ultimately be WHY. Why do they desire to perform criminal activity, etc. And of course, DO THEY actually have a choice in the matter?

origen is a good example of a reformer
constantine is a good example of george bush

I agree.

The renaissance era also saw a return to philosophy (neoplatonism for eg) after tumbling through thr dark ages

And I think the dark ages are fast returning, with religion playing a major role in that regard.

eternally we have no relationship with this material world or the concomitant issues of ignorance that arise from it.
We made the decision to come here to experience the variety of being separate from god.

Apparently it was a bad choice

I suppose thats ONE way of explaining it. But the premise seems contrived and man made, an awkward answer to a troubling question. Q - "Why is this world so f&#$@d up! A - "I dunno, but its OUR fault!"

There are also persons who seem to display the quality of forward thinking and philosophical introspection and analysis for approaching god. I think it's persons like these who are most suitable for referencing in discussions like this

Thanks, I will have a look and listen to this.

 

[lightgigantic]

Stretched

“
the desire for emancipation is becoming prominent in your neighborhood?
”
In my immediate neighborhood all is good, in the global neighborhood, I perceive emptyness, suffering and a strong odour of decay. But methinks that may just be the smell of rotting flesh, trapped in canine teeth.

ouch!

“
because that is what people want - a lower standard
”
or a much more NATURAL standard, more akin to our genus

god help us!

“
That is not to say that they don't exist - the issue is whether posterity will recognize them
”
Fair enough, but do you believe we exist in an infinite state?

infinite - no
eternal - yes

“
constitutionally we are connected to god (IOW constitutionally we have access to something that can actually be designated eternal values rightfully - namely god)
Breaking that "actual" position (in the name of coming to the material world) means that we are breaking our connection with god - that leaves us with the propensity of ascribing eternal values to objects/persons in this world of transience.
If we come back to the position of "actually" accepting god in our life, the cycle of attachment to transient material things is broken
”
After an epiphany or cathartic experience perhaps?

these 4 scenarios champion the cause

“
bad karma is just as transient as good karma
”
Why don`t they cancel each other out then?

for the same reason sweetness doesn't cancel out bitterness
(you can try it - if you make a drink that is bitter and put tons of sugar in it you will simply make something that rolls your eyes in one direction and then rolls them back the other )

“
we came to the material world for very explicit reasons - to develop a stronger bond with god is not one of them - out of his mercy, god creates this world of illusion to facilitate our desires - so we can pretend to be something we are not (ie separate from god) and have a pretend existence (take birth in a particular body) and undergo a series of pretend delights (and sufferings) from the material heavens to the material hells until we reach the point where we get sick of it, and voluntarily reunite with god much in the same way that we voluntarily disunited from god
”
What is the point? Why go through the whole shebang, just to end up back at the beginning. Where does the path lead to? Where does it end? Does it end?

basically it is impossible to love without having recourse to free will
if we had no opportunity to misuse our free will, love for god could not exist

“
if it is irrational it tends to indicate you don't understand the ultimate relationships that exist in this world (the body, the material world, god, the self etc)
”
All is one?

only in the sense that god is the source of everything

“
what would you propose in a scenario like this -
people desire to perform criminal activity
to facilitate this desire, a criminal government is elected
because the criminal government is elected, people have more facility for crime
”
The question would ultimately be WHY. Why do they desire to perform criminal activity, etc.

because they think they can be happy that way

And of course, DO THEY actually have a choice in the matter?

certainly - of course if a criminal government is in power the first choice they might have to make is to put a not-so-criminally-inclined-government in power

“
The renaissance era also saw a return to philosophy (neoplatonism for eg) after tumbling through thr dark ages
”
And I think the dark ages are fast returning, with religion playing a major role in that regard.

the dark ages are all about ignorance and a lack of philosophical intelligence -
it can wear the garb or anything (religion, science, politics, economics, etc)

“
eternally we have no relationship with this material world or the concomitant issues of ignorance that arise from it.
We made the decision to come here to experience the variety of being separate from god.

Apparently it was a bad choice
”
I suppose thats ONE way of explaining it. But the premise seems contrived and man made, an awkward answer to a troubling question. Q - "Why is this world so f&#$@d up! A - "I dunno, but its OUR fault!"

why would you say it is contrived?
If you examine problems as a whole it seems we are having more difficulties with resource management rather than resource allocation.
The most dangerous thing to humanity is humanity itself (by a long shot)

“
There are also persons who seem to display the quality of forward thinking and philosophical introspection and analysis for approaching god. I think it's persons like these who are most suitable for referencing in discussions like this
”
Thanks, I will have a look and listen to this.

some classes suitable for general listening are ....


Does religion create god?

Good general overview

Take on western/christian culture

....amongst others

 

[lightgigantic]

Stretched

The renaissance era also saw a return to philosophy (neoplatonism for eg) after tumbling through thr dark ages
”
And I think the dark ages are fast returning, with religion playing a major role in that regard.

actually as a further point, I would argue that there are no real solutions for ultimate peace within secularism because it is inherently composed of notions of independent distinction within its ideology.

All secularism can do is to continue infinitely reducing problems to common denominations until it is finally inundated by the ever increasing demands of the society it is operating out of (usually takes the expression of war, riots, revolution etc)