Torture
- Thread starter kaneda
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in a sense the entire material creation is a type of hell since it affords every opportunity to cause suffering at all levels
That said, mention is given to a special quarter of the material world (ie "hell") where persons with a large backlog of impious credits can receive payment in larger denominations
In other words, what this world can deal out in terms of suffering in say a hundred lifetimes, can maybe be dealt with in maybe one lifetime in hell.
So going to hell is simply a more efficient means of dealing with large reservoirs of bad karma
B
BlueMoose
Guest
Whom from these mens will pass the gates of heaven ?
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Have you ever been punched hard in the stomach and spent a very bad few minutes gasping for breath? Lung cancer can take several years to work into the final stages where a lung collapses and every second for a whole week, people gasp for every single breath they take. Even if such people knew that a very real hell awaited them, they would welcome it rather than go through such suffering.
We would not allow an animal to suffer like that but the church demands that humans do because they say it is evil for them to want to die with dignity.
standards of dignity and suffering are relative
a kenyan street kid's version of "roughing it without a proper place to sleep" would be quite different from yours
The concept of hell is the result of our own wishful thinking for perfect justice, which is so lacking in reality. It's also a way to scare believers into obeying social norms.
by the laws of karma we are forced to face certain experiences - there are also certain environments that facilitate certain extremes.
Thus karma delivers us to a particular environment and also gives us particular experiences in that environment
for instance to be in a state of poverty in australia (which has a magnanimous welfare structure) is something quite different from poverty in kenya.
In the same way, there exist realms separate from the one we are in currently that offer more intense standards of distress.
so we can have a hellish experience anywhere in the material world
and we can also approach the hellish realms, that offer a special facility in dishing out such exemplary experiences
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LG,
Thanks for the responses.
OK. So I grow up in an abusive home. (first instance of your karma induced hell) Psychologically I am traumatised and f*%#ked up, and as I grow older due to my upbringing, I become a sadist, strangle kittens, and end up being a serial killer.
1. How is this karmically beneficial?
2. I killed 23 people and this effected/traumitised about 500 people. Due to my original karma, I have created more bad karma, and influenced 500 others peoples karma? In this instance bad karma leads to more bad karma? How does this make sense?
Thanks for the responses.
OK. So I grow up in an abusive home. (first instance of your karma induced hell) Psychologically I am traumatised and f*%#ked up, and as I grow older due to my upbringing, I become a sadist, strangle kittens, and end up being a serial killer.
1. How is this karmically beneficial?
2. I killed 23 people and this effected/traumitised about 500 people. Due to my original karma, I have created more bad karma, and influenced 500 others peoples karma? In this instance bad karma leads to more bad karma? How does this make sense?
B
BlueMoose
Guest
Maybe the other 23 and 500 had it coming via their bad karma 
I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "karmically beneficial"
The laws of karma are quite intricate and also quite strong and (in most cases) impossible to resist
for instance by the laws of karma one may be hungry and by the laws of karma one may come in contact with a plate of food - the predictable scenario is that one would personally eat the food.
There is however the issue of free will.
For instance one may not eat the food but rather distribute it to others who are also hungry (in other words one always has the opportunity to act according to a higher standard - there is always the opportunity for adopting higher grade karmic activities ... there even exists options for getting free from karma all together)
So to take your example of the murder - whatever trauma is experienced is due to people's previous karma - there is a predictable outcome to this (rage, despair, trauma etc) but then there is also the possibility of surmounting that and moving on to a higher standard (for instance, perhaps people traumatized by the ideal could develop a greater sense of respect for all living entities, and not act in a way which is likely to result in further karmic trauma like this in the future).
Of course the common response to this is to say "well I can just go out and kill people and say its their karma" - that is true, but it would also be one's own personal karma to face the repercussions for such an act (both in this life and the next)
God, Heaven and Hell exist purely for transparent reasons. Every atheist knows what it's like to believe in god as a child after all. Heaven just seems to give some closure upon the death of a loved one rather than just saying "well, that's that then". Hell is quite useful on children, although thousands of years ago it might have been equally effective on adults. My mother would always use the 'bogey man' for making me follow the rules.
And after all that, in spite of fantasies of heaven, hell and god, we will just go back to what it was like before birth. Devoid of all consciousness.
And after all that, in spite of fantasies of heaven, hell and god, we will just go back to what it was like before birth. Devoid of all consciousness.
You are not up to speed on Western philosophy. That stuff is old hat.
Do you believe god can do what he likes because of Anselm's definition ? It seems that most believers do.
Baloney ! Do you ever read what you write ? So you know all about the laws of karma. How did you come by this knowledge when there is not the slightest bit of objective evidence to support it ?
delusional?
feel free to qualify the claim by offering a standard definition of "reality"
erm yes.
sometimes even several times before I post since I know how forgiving some people can be on this site
I wouldn't say "all"
until you offer an explanation of how you came to the conclusion of the bold bit, your question remains a loaded one and doesn't warrant a reply.
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LG
"I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "karmically beneficial"
The experiences that (potentially) help you become a better human being. In my scenario, my f@$%ed up childhood was an example of your "hell" and occurred to improve my karma. But in my example it did not. It made me worse.
Are you saying this happend to me so that in killing 23 people, I created a taste of "hell" for them and their family? What role does your deity play in all of this? Directly or indirectly?
"I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "karmically beneficial"
The experiences that (potentially) help you become a better human being. In my scenario, my f@$%ed up childhood was an example of your "hell" and occurred to improve my karma. But in my example it did not. It made me worse.
Are you saying this happend to me so that in killing 23 people, I created a taste of "hell" for them and their family? What role does your deity play in all of this? Directly or indirectly?
the laws of karma are complex - for instance the fact that not all (or even many) persons go out and kill people after being messed up with in their childhood indicates that there are other contributing factors to mass homicide. But even then, even if a complete picture of the relevant causes were determined, there is still the issue of the individual's will (as indicated with the hungry person finding the food - they don't have to eat it).
The point is that karma (for better or worse) is a reflection of our choices in life, and that in turn shapes the options ofchoices we can make in the future.
(for instance if I catch a plane to London, I cannot make the choice to go to LA midway - while I am in the plane I can make many other choices - I can eat, I can talk to nearby passengers - I can even make the choice to physically assault the pilot - if I make this later choice, it could inhibit my being able to choose to take a flight to LA after landing in London ... instead I might be forced to choose from what options the local jail in london has to offer .....)
that is simply part of it - the 23 people and their families had a reaction coming their way (by the laws of karma) - your playing a part in it, is simply an exhibition of your will (under the influence of previous situations delivered by your choices)
God orchestrates everyone (by personally witnessing and controlling people's actions of remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness ) and the field of action (the phenomenal world of matter) so that everyone is due accordingly what they desire.
Practically we are powerless - all we can do independently is desire.
(BTW as a further issue, karma is only pertinent to humans since we have issues of sin and piety (dogs don't get arrested for jay walking or stealing food for eg) - entering into animal life is kind of like entering a gradual cycle of evolution until one gets the human form of life ... upon which things become very dynamic according to one's choices and desires)
Actually the laws of karma are a system of organization for those living entities who are seeking enjoyment separate from god (which is what the material world facilitates) - we may include god to a greater degree (mundane religious piety) or a lesser degree (outright atheism) in our plans of enjoyment in this world - but until we come to the point of totally including god in our plans of enjoyment (in other words acting as a loving servant of god instead of a conniving servant or an outright competitor) god will always be dealing with us indirectly through the laws of karma.
when we get free from the laws of karma (both bad karma and good karma) god then deals with us directly
(PS sorry if the reply is a bit long winded, but asking what relationship both the living entity and god have with the laws of karma cannot be answered in a simple format - I think in the course of trying to keep things short I have also made things a bit difficult to comprehend - you can find longer but more well written discussions of this topic here)